Selling GPX files

[John Ranalletta]

Pursuant to a message exchange with another member about GPX files for our events, this question came to mind.  It is possible to put our routes behind a paywall to help defray board expenses.

 

When @Mike  posted for the Driftless, he pointed us to this website where the owner sells his maps and routes.  I'm guessing that our collective has one of the most comprehensive collection of routes on our computers and GPS as any in the US for almost any region of the country, e.g. @TEWKS - NE; @Whip- Hill Country and Rockies; @MikeRC - Canadian Rockies, etc.

 

I'm not savvy about paywalls, etc, but maybe someone else can speak to the chances of this working.

[Whip]

No idea

 

@chrisolson

 

 

[chrisolson]

Well, we do have a fairly good file upload capability and I do remember there is a "option" in this software for download files to be purchased ...

 

HOWEVER

 

I'll need to actually go through how it works to see if we have all the bits and pieces that can come together ... ie how exactly does one "purchase" a file and how does that get distributed to the appropriate person ... 

 

This may take a few days ... I'll need to set up a trial on the DEV sight to see how / if it will work for us.

[Indy Dave]

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible idea and seems to violate the spirit of the board and the larger community in general. There are numerous examples of the BMW community sharing their combined expertise for the betterment of the community as a whole. Off the top of my head, I would list the exceptional tutorials The New England Riders provide, as well as routes themselves. There's also the equally exceptional manual John Heath has compiled and that is linked through our web site as well.

[terryofperry]

Totally against it.

 

Terry

[marcopolo]

I agree with Dave, and Terry (above).

[Whip]

The costs of running the board have been greatly reduced since Chris has moved us to this new software. I don't feel the need to supplement our donations.

 

 

BUT.....it may be possible to put these files behind a "membership wall"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernie]

11 hours ago, Whip said:

 

BUT.....it may be possible to put these files behind a "membership wall"?

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Bernie
It was a stupid idea.

[chrisolson]

6 hours ago, Indy Dave said:

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible idea and seems to violate the spirit of the board and the larger community in general. There are numerous examples of the BMW community sharing their combined expertise for the betterment of the community as a whole. Off the top of my head, I would list the exceptional tutorials The New England Riders provide, as well as routes themselves. There's also the equally exceptional manual John Heath has compiled and that is linked through our web site as well.

 

5 hours ago, terryofperry said:

Totally against it

 

 

5 hours ago, marcopolo said:

I agree with Dave, and Terry (above).

 

 

 

Well, I misread the original request , I  somehow missed the last part of the first sentence.

 

I though the request was not a way for the board to make money, but instead a way for the member who created the route to gain some small renumeration for their efforts of creating the route.  The intent of monetizing the board has ALWAYS been something that has NEVER been considered.

 

 

 

 

HOWEVER

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Whip said:

The costs of running the board have been greatly reduced since Chris has moved us to this new software. I don't feel the need to supplement our donations.

 

 

BUT.....it may be possible to put these files behind a "membership wall"?

 

2 hours ago, Bernie said:

 

I would really like to support that. I know our dearly departed friend, Kinsley was always very concerned about "His" routes getting into the wrong GPS units. He always tried to keep the traffic load down on his favorite roads.

I also think that such a system may even encourage more members to upload routes. 

As for support for the board, we could always pass a hat at any of the events.

 

 

 

The existing "Downloads" area is and has always been a place for members to upload files (such as routes) which then are downloadable .  Currently the Download section is also available to guests but it can be restricted to be only visible to  members.  Member wall easily created .  Maybe we need some internal

"feature promotion" to make folks more aware of what capabilities exist !!
 

The download section can also be enhanced to make it more specific to each route "creator" and/or create sections for geographic regions (or both ) to make browsing the selections easier.  If you visit the section you can see that sections can be created to be event specific.

[TyTass]

Anyone suggesting that we should share routes in any fashion other than what we have been doing please read ...

 

Having had many scores of conversations on the subject of "Route Sharing" with Ken over the years (as I'm sure Bernie has), I too can say I knew Ken's mind on the sharing routes and route data. In fact, years back, when I was researching routes for the West Virginia events I was cohosting, I came up with a concept for a tankbag map system (as I was working in publishing at the time). I thought about bringing that concept to market and discussed it with a few close friends, to include Ken. Of course there were the problems of the time and expenses in researching and confirming road condition and other data, knowing so much data would change constantly.  I eventually dropped the idea largely because Ken convinced me that it would work against what we were trying to accomplish for this very community:

• Continuing to host successful BMWST ride events that keep our community attending and sharing the joy riding together
• Not making easy for people to share willy nilly with friends outside of this community 
• Not creating competition for the limited lodging during the prime riding seasons by making it easy to simply hand the information over the other larger online communities 

So, I can say with complete confidence that Ken vehemently opposed sharing the routes wholesale ... even within this board except for the express purpose of supporting the planned event. In fact he adopted a practice, that generally continues to this day, that Event routes are presented for download approximately 1 month prior to the event for which they are created and then taken down fairly soon after the event.   

 

Clearly some don't know, don't understand, and/or don't agree with the reason that Ken and others like me adopted that practice.  I would like to suggest that BEFORE we have the conversation of HOW to share the event routes, that we stop and ask WHETHER the routes should be shared other than for the proscribed events. 

 

Let's take a look at what goes into being able to continually make routes that "work:"

• Thousands of hours of research of road data both online and in a variety of purchased map products
• Thousands of hours calling hotels and eateries that make the routes "work"
• Thousands of hours of scout riding to confirm a multitude of unknowns not documented online or in hardcopy
• Thousands of dollars spend on non-group rate hotel rooms and campgrounds fees to conduct this research
• Thousands of hours of organization of data captured in Basecamp (and/or other systems)  
• Hundred of hours crafting the routes themselves for each event  (providing a start to finish experience that maps cannot do)

The routes that BMWST members provide are "gifts" to this community from those people who have spent the time and money to be able to share those gifts. I can't speak for everyone but I know I can for most folks in the SE area for certain ... the event routes were provided for this community only for the specific events.  They weren't created to simply share good roads. 

 

Last point and I'll climb off my soapbox ... what will happen if we make the routes public:  

 

Many people here who are part of multiple communities will share the routes outside of this community.

• How do I know that? Because I've been asked many times to provide them to someone so they can share with their "other" community.  
• How do I know they will share regardless of what I say?  Because I have found my routes and those I recognize as Ken's event sites of other communities.
• How do I know they are mine? By the names of the waypoints I included in my routes. 

What's wrong with sharing outside our community because all together we're one larger motorcycle community?  To that I say, try hosting an event for a few years.  See what it takes to:

• find a hotel or inn that can handle from 35-100 people that isn't already reserved by another group
• try to enjoy sport touring where large formations of cruisers or whatever are riding the backroads at 15-25 mph, where passing on a series of blind curves is impossible

Thanks for reading this in the light it was intended ... not a selfish position ... but quite the opposite. One of appreciating this community and the effort that many put in to make this community what it is. 

[chrisolson]

2 minutes ago, TyTass said:

Clearly some don't know, don't understand, and/or don't agree with the reason that Ken and others like me adopted that practice.  I would like to suggest that BEFORE we have the conversation of HOW to share the event routes, that we stop and ask WHETHER the routes should be shared other than for the proscribed events. 

 

Thanks for the in depth response.  I had wondered at why some routes were  "held closely"  ... as I'd explained / offered to the creators how the downloads area work as a much easier/simpler means to get event specific routes out to attendees.  Now I know.

 

 

The facility on the board is available  at the member's discretion.  Either way I will make it member-only visible unless there is some rational objection.  Therefore , in my opinion, not much need for instituting a "BMWST Policy" if routes are shared or not. 

 

In the end ... to use or not use is up to the route creator.  

[TyTass]

6 hours ago, chrisolson said:

 

Thanks for the in depth response.  I had wondered at why some routes were  "held closely"  ... as I'd explained / offered to the creators how the downloads area work as a much easier/simpler means to get event specific routes out to attendees.  Now I know.

 

 

The facility on the board is available  at the member's discretion.  Either way I will make it member-only visible unless there is some rational objection.  Therefore , in my opinion, not much need for instituting a "BMWST Policy" if routes are shared or not. 

 

In the end ... to use or not use is up to the route creator.  

 

Sorry for the length ... BUT I can't say it enough how much I appreciate what others have shared regarding their knowledge of the best twisties, the ways of bypassing the "unfun" segments,  event logistics POIs, and routing techniques within this community:  Bernie, Dave, Terry, Tim, Chris, Joel, Matt, Shawn, BigT, many other my feeble brain can't recall at this writing ... and of course our friend, Ken Insley.  There are many other people who support other regions and venues I and regions I have yet to string enough time together to visit as well as those that are no longer active.
 

Cheers!

[John Ranalletta]

13 hours ago, Indy Dave said:

With all due respect, I think this is a terrible idea and seems to violate the spirit of the board and the larger community in general. There are numerous examples of the BMW community sharing their combined expertise for the betterment of the community as a whole. Off the top of my head, I would list the exceptional tutorials The New England Riders provide, as well as routes themselves. There's also the equally exceptional manual John Heath has compiled and that is linked through our web site as well.

 

Dave, I agree with you.  I'd never suggest selling routes to board members.  Just wondered if registered members could access routes but other, non members could buy routes.

[chrisolson]

 

6 minutes ago, TyTass said:

 

Sorry for the length ... BUT I can't say it enough how much I appreciate what others have shared regarding their knowledge of the best twisties, the ways of bypassing the "unfun" segments,  event logistics POIs, and routing techniques within this community:  Bernie, Dave, Terry, Tim, Chris, Joel, Matt, Shawn, BigT, many other my feeble brain can't recall at this writing ... and of course our friend, Ken Insley.  There are many other people who support other regions and venues I and regions I have yet to string enough time together to visit as well as those that are no longer active.
 

Cheers!

 

 

I think by closing the gap of guest access, it removes some of the temptation to post them to other forums.  Not entirely ... and I do understand your expressed concerns.  But also there may be room for an occasional route posting ... just for fun to share with other members.  If it helps, I can put a disclaimer in the "header" of the downloads something like "routes are intended for the use of BMWST members.  Please check with the creator of the route if you want to share outside of our community."  ..... or not or something entirely different ... 

[chrisolson]

2 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Dave, I agree with you.  I'd never suggest selling routes to board members.  Just wondered if registered members could access routes but other, non members could buy routes.

 

It was an interesting proposal ... unfortunately there isn't a way to accomplish that given how the software is configured. ... even if the creator of the route wanted to do that to make a bit of coin as a side hustle. 

 

So ... we circle back around to where we were.  Routes (or other files for that matter) can be uploaded at the creator's discretion and can be downloaded for free.

[John Ranalletta]

9 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

 

It was an interesting proposal ... unfortunately there isn't a way to accomplish that given how the software is configured. ... even if the creator of the route wanted to do that to make a bit of coin as a side hustle. 

 

So ... we circle back around to where we were.  Routes (or other files for that matter) can be uploaded at the creator's discretion and can be downloaded for free.

 

Thanks, Chris.  Case closed.

[DeadEye]

Sorry as a newbie here, I would think either you just share stuff, or you don’t.

This place https://www.ridethehighlands.ca/# provides  all their routes for free…

 

 

[Lowndes]

26 minutes ago, DeadEye said:

Sorry as a newbie here, I would think either you just share stuff, or you don’t.

This place https://www.ridethehighlands.ca/# provides  all their routes for free…

 

 

 

I LOVE Onterio.

 

But, sorry, NOT EVEN.

 

I have lots of maps, some really good MC maps, but none compare to a "Ken Road".

 

Come on down South.  Anytime.  I'll show you around.  Open all winter.  Well, mostly.  Sometimes it rains.

[LBump]

Would created maps/routes as mentioned be able to be copyrighted?    now it becomes complicated...

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

9 hours ago, LBump said:

Would created maps/routes as mentioned be able to be copyrighted?    now it becomes complicated...

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say it's not likely, at least not for GPX files.  A copyright protects a creative work that has some kind of aesthetic value.  I don't think a list of geographical waypoints between a start point and and end point meets that definition; it's more like data, or a solution to a technical problem.  

 

A printed map might meet the requirement, since the features of that printed map require some aesthetic consideration.  

 

In any event, there's the legal theory and there's reality, the latter being that it'd be nearly impossible to enforce a copyright on these kinds of things, if only because of the expense of doing so.  

[John Ranalletta]

43 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'd say it's not likely, at least not for GPX files.  A copyright protects a creative work that has some kind of aesthetic value.  I don't think a list of geographical waypoints between a start point and and end point meets that definition; it's more like data, or a solution to a technical problem.  

 

A printed map might meet the requirement, since the features of that printed map require some aesthetic consideration.  

 

In any event, there's the legal theory and there's reality, the latter being that it'd be nearly impossible to enforce a copyright on these kinds of things, if only because of the expense of doing so.  

I think it might have been Gleno who said this group could argue a haircut.

 

 

[realshelby]

I think I will go make another donation to the forum. Only damn place on the internet you could have this discussion without moderators stepping in! Maybe a couple others will follow that lead. May, or may not need the money at the moment, but it would be nice to have some to cover new software/hardware that those that work so hard to maintain this sight would love to have. 

 

I don't use GPX files. I rather enjoy getting lost on bike trips. Always find my way back...But I do understand the work that it takes. I also understand the work that goes into putting on events ( like the most excellent rally site/event in Canaan Valley!). No one gets "paid" for those, unless you consider my absolute respect and thanks to those that do the work. 

So, Iooking in from the outside, I can see where posting GPX routes for events a month or so before the event would be great. Taking them down after the event is good too. They are not lost, but that keeps some of those that might pirate those files for personal gain or notoriety from benefiting easily. Against a commercial endeavor onsite. We all know why, at least those that have been on BMWRT BMWST for a while!

[DeadEye]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

I think it might have been Gleno who said this group could argue a haircut.

 

 

Who needs a haircut, just shave it all off and wait until you need to do it again because you can’t get your helmet on…