Throttle Body rebuild Dan Cata Product - problem

[MyR1100RT]

I finished up the left side rebuild a little while ago, went very smoothly and I was please at how easy it was.  Now that I've torn down the right side TB, I'm at the point where I'm re-inserting the valve, although, something is wrong.  There is quite a bit of play, and it doesn't close completely as the left side did.  Even with putting the original screws in (in the chance that they were a bit thicker than the ones that came with the Dan Cana, still a LOT of play.  I don't remember there being any play, or light getting thru before I disassembled it.  Could I have the valve in backwards?  I'm not sure what's going on here and could use some advice.

 

Thanks!  

[dirtrider]

8 minutes ago, MyR1100RT said:

I finished up the left side rebuild a little while ago, went very smoothly and I was please at how easy it was.  Now that I've torn down the right side TB, I'm at the point where I'm re-inserting the valve, although, something is wrong.  There is quite a bit of play, and it doesn't close completely as the left side did.  Even with putting the original screws in (in the chance that they were a bit thicker than the ones that came with the Dan Cana, still a LOT of play.  I don't remember there being any play, or light getting thru before I disassembled it.  Could I have the valve in backwards?  I'm not sure what's going on here and could use some advice.

 

Thanks!  

Evening MyR1100RT

 

I usually back the idle stop screw out exactly 2 full turns (mark & count exactly so you can put it back to exactly where it was).

 

This allows the throttle plate to properly center  & you can set the plate & shaft  position precisely centered.

 

You might have it in backwards (or upside down)--  (did you mark it before disassembly?) 

 

Try it the other way but it should still be precisely centered with the base idle screw backed out.  

[MyR1100RT]

.....I am, officially a dumba$$.....yes, it was in backwards....I'll shut up now and go back to coloring....

[MyR1100RT]

Holy Cow.  What a difference I can see straight off.  Started up great, ran smoothly at (choked) 2000ish rpm's, smoother that she has in a while.  Granted, I have to synch the TB and adjust the idle tomorrow, but I'm very impressed at how easy this process was (outside of my screw up) Thanks for the assistance. 

[MyR1100RT]

It's been a few hours since I completed the rebuild of both TB's with the Dan Cana kit.  I ran into a problem with being a doofus (thanks, dirtrider) for helping.

 

I had become accustom to the unusually long start time (sometimes 3-5 seconds), after the start, the unusual sounds coming from between my knees, over time it all sounded normal; so I though until a few hours ago.

 

It's hard to explain the feeling after paying money for a well reviewed, highly recommended product, and all of my searching, this product and even better customer service reviews...I'm a sceptic, I had doubts. I had after all been conditioned to the poor sound's my fine lady was producing, to finally hearing her not only start up within 1-2 seconds after hitting the start button, but sound like her old self.  Heck, even with the TB's not synced yet (doing that tomorrow), I've gone outside and started her up three times tonight, just to enjoy that 1-2 seconds...

 

Highly recommend the Dan Cana system.  I had no idea something so "small" could make such a difference, and make me so happy.

 

Enjoy the ride.

 

 

[MyR1100RT]

UPDATE:  Synching the TB's now, my gauge is showing that the right TB is pulling way harder than the left. As you can see, both throttle's are all the way down.  What am I missing?

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, MyR1100RT said:

UPDATE:  Synching the TB's now, my gauge is showing that the right TB is pulling way harder than the left. As you can see, both throttle's are all the way down.  What am I missing?

 

 

 

 

Afternoon MyR1100RT

 

Is this at idle  at above idle?

 

If at base idle then probably the base idle screws are not set correctly (or the plates are not properly centered). New shafts can change true base idle when resting on the base idle screws.  

 

If you didn't back the base idle screws out about 2 turns before centering the throttle plates then they might not be properly centered now (the plates need to centered in the TB bore with FULLY close throttle plates) 

 

Do you have the BBS (Big Brass Screws) cleaned & the air passages under the BBS screws squeaky clean? If not then do that first as dirty screw tip or dirty air passages under the screws can really effect base idle vacuum. 

 

If you start playing with the base idle screws then moving the L/H side base idle screw will also change the TPS output at idle so that will have to be checked & re-set. 

 

Be sure to mark, then RECORD every base idle screw movement so you can put them back to where they were if it gets messed up & way out  whack.

 

Again-- you need to start with perfectly centered throttle plates or you will chase your tail for ever.  

[MyR1100RT]

Yes, it's at idle.

 

So I can pull the BBS without harming anything to clean them?

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, MyR1100RT said:

Yes, it's at idle.

 

So I can pull the BBS without harming anything to clean them?

Afternoon MyR1100RT

 

No problem, just count the turns to lightly seat, then remove & clean (screw tips & passages under the screws) then re-install & re-set to same turns out from seated) 

 

Just make sure the throttle plates are perfectly centered (with base idle screws backed out 2 turns) or you will probably never get it completely right.  

[MyR1100RT]

 

 

[MyR1100RT]

Cleaned, installed back to the 1.5 turns on both sides, at operating temp, idle is ~900-1000rpm.  TB cables still all the way down, just from the feel I can tell the right cylinder is hotter than the left.  Hooked the 'meter back up, still drawing a lot more on the right.

 

I just hooked the 'meter back up, still pulling to the right cylinder, excessively.  While it was running I then adjusted the left throttle cable out, while leaving the right side all the way down.  It increased the idle and didn't help with the TB pull to the right.

 

With both throttle cables all the way down, BBS's 1.5 turns out, idle is lower than recommended (1100rpm).  If I manually rev the right side, the engine bogs down (assume it would die).  If I manually rev the left side, the engine operates normally. If I manually rev the left side, while holding the left side at a steady rpm, try and rev the right, it also bogs down the engine.

 

Would a stretched throttle cable have anything to do with this issue? 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon MyR1100RT

 

Cleaned, installed back to the 1.5 turns on both sides, at operating temp, idle is ~900-1000rpm.  TB cables still all the way down, just from the feel I can tell the right cylinder is hotter than the left.  Hooked the 'meter back up, still drawing a lot more on the right.--Does the R/H side have higher or lower vacuum than the L/H side?

I just hooked the 'meter back up, still pulling to the right cylinder, excessively.  While it was running I then adjusted the left throttle cable out, while leaving the right side all the way down.  It increased the idle and didn't help with the TB pull to the right.-- It needs to idle with the cams SOLIDLY sitting  on the base idle screws (also must have cable slack on both sides at idle)

 

With both throttle cables all the way down, BBS's 1.5 turns out, idle is lower than recommended (1100rpm). -- You might have to back the BBS screws out a little more to get the idle higher. If still a low idle then you will probably have to turn the base idle screws in slightly (but evenly on each side). Then re-set the TPS. 

 

If I manually rev the right side, the engine bogs down (assume it would die).--Normal, as opening  ONLY the R/H side gives that side more air but no more fuel as the TPS fuel control input is only on the L/H side.

 

 If I manually rev the left side, the engine operates normally.-- Again normal as opening the L/H side gives both  sides more fuel as well as gives the L/H side more air to go with the added fuel.

 

If I manually rev the left side, while holding the left side at a steady rpm, try and rev the right, it also bogs down the engine.-- Still normal based on what I wrote above. 

 

Would a stretched throttle cable have anything to do with this issue?-- No, the problem is starting to compound as you are fighting both base idle air flow (curb idle on base idle screws) & also fighting with above idle cross side balance (proper cable adjustment).

 

You MUST get the base idle properly balanced & at the correct RPM with loose throttle cables on both sides,  THEN work on the above-idle cross side  balance with properly adjusted throttle cables. Then you still need to end up with a little cable slack at base idle.

 

If your throttle plates are not properly centered in the throttle body bores  you will fight, fight, fight this thing  until you turn older & grayer. 

[MyR1100RT]

Quote

17 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Does the R/H side have higher or lower vacuum than the L/H side?

Yes, the R/H side is much higher than the left.  It's so high that I can't let the engine run or it'll pull the ATF into the engine.

 

 

17 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

You might have to back the BBS screws out a little more to get the idle higher. If still a low idle then you will probably have to turn the base idle screws in slightly (but evenly on each side). Then re-set the TPS.

.  How do I do this?

When I finished the rebuild, there was no light coming thru on the throttle plates, I'm assuming that means they're seated correctly.

 

It's now idling at the recommended rpm's (when warm).

 

Oh, and thanks DR for your time and experience.

 

D

[dirtrider]

Afternoon MyR1100RT

Does the R/H side have higher or lower vacuum than the L/H side? 
Yes, the R/H side is much higher than the left.  It's so high that I can't let the engine run or it'll pull the ATF into the engine. -- That means the that the R/H side throttle plate is more closed than the L/H side (less air flow = higher vacuum) or put another way,  higher vacuum = less air flow through the throttle plate. (most people understand this incorrectly)
  
 

13 minutes ago, dirtrider said: 
You might have to back the BBS screws out a little more to get the idle higher. If still a low idle then you will probably have to turn the base idle screws in slightly (but evenly on each side). Then re-set the TPS.  How do I do this? -- Long detailed response for this so we won't go there until/if  you actually need to do this.

When I finished the rebuild, there was no light coming thru on the throttle plates, I'm assuming that means they're seated correctly. -- Not necessarily, there has to be SOME light coming around the edge of the plate or the plate will stick in the bore when closed & you will have a very low idle. With the base idle screws backed out 2 turns you should not have any light coming around the plate on the top or bottom. Then with base idle screw back to factory setting a small amount of EVEN light top & bottom.   
  
It's now idling at the recommended rpm's (when warm), -- Ok, are you also good on idle balance now?

[MyR1100RT]

Just pulled the left TB off, checked the valve, this is as closed as it seems I can get it.  Also what is this screw on the underside of the left TB?  

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, MyR1100RT said:

Just pulled the left TB off, checked the valve, this is as closed as it seems I can get it.  Also what is this screw on the underside of the left TB?  

 

Afternoon MyR1100RT

 

Can't tell much form the picture as the throttle body needs to be held up with a strong light in front of it to see the "ring of light".

 

On that screw?-- That is not an adjustable thing,  that screw is for a redundant ground wire (brown wire) that runs from wire harness chassis ground to the L/H throttle body as a 2nd ground for the TPS sensor. 

 

Do you have an unaccounted for brown wire floating around in that TB area? 

[MyR1100RT]

DR,

 

There is a small "ring of light" equal around the TB valve.

 

After I reinstalled the TB, I noticed that the screw was for the grounding wire.  Duh.

 

Ok, I'll stop my T/S for the day, I still can't explain the reason for the RH cylinder pulling more than the LH.  

 

I did however discover that I'll probably have to replace the throttle cable(s).  Unless it's normal, the RH cable doesn't acuate the TB at the same time as the left TB, probably needs to be replaced.

 

I'll give it another afternoon's T/S before I lose my patience with this issue...

 

Thanks again DR for your help and patience.

 

D

[dirtrider]

Afternoon MyR1100RT

 

There is a small "ring of light" equal around the TB valve.--This is good but probably not perfect, plus both sides need to be exactly the same.  

 

After I reinstalled the TB, I noticed that the screw was for the grounding wire.  Duh. (good you found that)

 

Ok, I'll stop my T/S for the day, I still can't explain the reason for the RH cylinder pulling more (higher vacuum)  than the LH. -- That means the  R/H side is flowing less air (more closed throttle plate). That could be due to a number of things so start with-- ARE BOTH SIDE THROTTLE CABLES LOOSE at curb idle??????? (they positively need to be) , next could be one throttle plate is more centered than the other, next could be the new shafts are not the EXACT same as the originals so now your base idle screws are slightly wrong to give matched air flow.  

 

I did however discover that I'll probably have to replace the throttle cable(s).  Unless it's normal, the RH cable doesn't acuate the TB at the same time as the left TB, probably needs to be replaced.-- This isn't right but isn't due to a stretched cable (they just don't stretch that much) .  Something else is causing the problem (probably incorrect adjustment procedure) -- DO NOT try to use the cables to set/adjust idle balance. 

 

I'll give it another afternoon's T/S before I lose my patience with this issue...-- Yes, sleep on it so you have a new outlook tomorrow. 

 

I think that you missing something in HOW you are attacking this.

 

You FIRST need to set the  base idle balance & base idle RPM ( WITH BOTH SIDES HAVING VERY LOOSE CABLES). If you have ANY tightness in the  cables you will not get an accurate base idle balance.

 

Once the idle balance & base idle RPM is set THEN you can move on to adjusting the cables to open both side TB's at the very same time & get a decent cross side balance at 1800-2500 RPM's.

 

Cable adjustment MUST come last AFTER you get  a good base idle adjustment with loose cables. 

 

 

[MyR1100RT]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

That means the  R/H side is flowing less air (more closed throttle plate). That could be due to a number of things so start with-- ARE BOTH SIDE THROTTLE CABLES LOOSE at curb idle??????? (they positively need to be) , next could be one throttle plate is more centered than the other, next could be the new shafts are not the EXACT same as the originals so now your base idle screws are slightly wrong to give matched air flow.

Thanks again for your assistance DR.  I noticed in two of your responses to my citing's, referenced the valve plate clearance's.  I'm betting that you're correct in your thinking here.  I was thinking back on what I saw in the RH valve, if memory serves, there was little to no light present after I put it back together.  I will verify this tomorrow.  

[MyR1100RT]

I've taken off both TB's, the best it seems I can do is get the valve's back in with a ring of light around the edges, I can see clearly through both screw holes - is there a tip to help me get a better seating of the valves?

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, MyR1100RT said:

I've taken off both TB's, the best it seems I can do is get the valve's back in with a ring of light around the edges, I can see clearly through both screw holes - is there a tip to help me get a better seating of the valves?

Evening MyR1100RT

 

Yes, but some depends-on.

 

First thing (carefully) look at the top & bottom  edges of the throttle plates to see if they have a slight taper on the upper & lower edges. If there is a taper, or chamfer, on the throttle plate edge that is there to allow better sealing at closed throttle plate. That chamfer (if present) MUST face the correct direction. 

 

If your throttle plates have that taper & you don't understand what I wrote above then "STOP",   then post back & I will try to explain it in more detail.

 

You will see the throttle plates close at a slight angle when resting on the idle stop screws so IF there is a taper on the  plate edge that taper sits somewhat flat to the throttle body bore with a closed throttle plate. (IF your plates have a taper then you might have one or both  reversed if you didn't mark them before removal). (so check for this first) 

 

Next, to get the plate perfectly centered you will probably have to back the idle stop screws out enough to allow the throttle plates to close TIGHT TO THE THROTTLE BORE. I usually (first mark) then back the base idle screws out 2 full turns as that way it easy to return them back to factory setting.

 

By allowing the throttle plates to FULLY seat tightly in the throttle bores that allows them to pretty well self center precisely (I then tighten the screws with the throttle plates closed tight) -- Then I return the base idle screws to the marked position I made before removing).

 

It is very difficult to precisely center those throttle plates if you don't back the base idle screws out to allow the plates to FULLY close in the bores.  

 

If you try to center the plates without backing the base idle screws out of the way  the plates can be clocked as few degrees off one way or the other (the throttle plates are not exactly round like most think, they are slightly elliptical as they seat in the throttle bore at an angle, that means the throttle bore is elliptical in the actual seating area as the closed throttle plate sees it.

[MyR1100RT]

The RH TB has "some" light coming thru, if you can imagine a clock face, I have light coming through between 1-3 and then again from 4-9. On the LH side, it's almost all completely lit (there isn't any around the 4).

[MyR1100RT]

I don't see a taper on the top or bottom of the RH TB plate.  I do see the flat spots at the 3 and 9. No chamfer present.

[dirtrider]

Quote

The RH TB has "some" light coming thru, if you can imagine a clock face, I have light coming through between 1-3 and then again from 4-9. On the LH side, it's almost all completely lit (there isn't any around the 4).

Evening MyR1100RT

 

The L/H plate might not be clocked correctly to seal tightly (the plates are slightly elliptical).

 

You have to get those plates to seal the same all the way around or your base idle screw settings will be way off on one side or the other.  

 

You need equal air flow past the throttle plates at curb  idle (with cams resting on the base idle screws)

 

If you don't get the air flow equal & the same as it was from the factory  then you will never get it to balance out correctly at curb idle. 

[MyR1100RT]

Thanks agin DR, I'm at my mechanical knowledge/ability's limit.  The bike idles @1100 however, since those plates aren't seated correctly, It's a moot point to continue on my own. I'm going to have to get some professional help.  My mechanic is great, not that I don't want to support him (independent) during these times, I might just have to do that, not sure if I'll get in and repaired for this summer.  Them's the breaks, right?  :-)

 

Anyway, thank you very very much for your information, help, and most of all patience with me.

 

Derek