Is my new front tire defective?

[wallyging]

After I installed new tires on my 2012 R1200R Classic (tubed tires on spoke rims) the bike vibrates like the front tire is out of balance. I've tried everything I can think of to identify the source of the problem with no success. I am getting ready to return it to Dennis Kirk for replacement but thought I'd ask here if I'm missing something. I don't know of any way I can determine if the tire is defective. Am I right about this?

 

More background:

• I first noticed the problem after I installed the new tires (Michelin Road 5 with new Metzler tubes) - I don't recall any vibration with the previous tires
• The vibration becomes very noticeable at 50 mph, and quite strong at 70 mph - on glassy smooth blacktop it can be felt as low as 20 mph
• The vibration is felt in seat and handlebars, and less in the pegs - no shake in the handlebars, however
• The vibration is low frequency and varies with the speed of the bike
• I reduced air in tire to 24 lbs and the vibration seemed softer; at 44 lbs. the vibration was harsher
• Same vibration in corners as straightaways 

 

Here is what I've tried and eliminated, helped along a lot by dirtrider's and others' posts:

• Re-seated the front tire three times, with increasing amounts of lube (soap and water) - last two times a nice loud "pop" on both sides
• Checked the balance (static) - perfect
• Checked trueness of wheel -- 1 -2 mm lateral; vertical seems perfect
• Checked rotors - no run-out; no pulsing in the brake levers
• Checked wheel bearings - no notchiness or looseness (bike has 48,000 miles); wheel rotates smoothly
• Final drive - no horizontal or vertical play detected; no leaks
• Drive train - in second gear with clutch in I detected no notchiness or grinding as I rotated the rear wheel

 

So I'm thinking the only thing left is a defective tire. Am I right? 

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, wallyging said:

After I installed new tires on my 2012 R1200R Classic (tubed tires on spoke rims) the bike vibrates like the front tire is out of balance. I've tried everything I can think of to identify the source of the problem with no success. I am getting ready to return it to Dennis Kirk for replacement but thought I'd ask here if I'm missing something. I don't know of any way I can determine if the tire is defective. Am I right about this?

 

More background:

• I first noticed the problem after I installed the new tires (Michelin Road 5 with new Metzler tubes) - I don't recall any vibration with the previous tires
• The vibration becomes very noticeable at 50 mph, and quite strong at 70 mph - on glassy smooth blacktop it can be felt as low as 20 mph
• The vibration is felt in seat and handlebars, and less in the pegs - no shake in the handlebars, however
• The vibration is low frequency and varies with the speed of the bike
• I reduced air in tire to 24 lbs and the vibration seemed softer; at 44 lbs. the vibration was harsher
• Same vibration in corners as straightaways 

 

Here is what I've tried and eliminated, helped along a lot by dirtrider's and others' posts:

• Re-seated the front tire three times, with increasing amounts of lube (soap and water) - last two times a nice loud "pop" on both sides
• Checked the balance (static) - perfect
• Checked trueness of wheel -- 1 -2 mm lateral; vertical seems perfect
• Checked rotors - no run-out; no pulsing in the brake levers
• Checked wheel bearings - no notchiness or looseness (bike has 48,000 miles); wheel rotates smoothly
• Final drive - no horizontal or vertical play detected; no leaks
• Drive train - in second gear with clutch in I detected no notchiness or grinding as I rotated the rear wheel

 

So I'm thinking the only thing left is a defective tire. Am I right? 

Morning wallyging

 

If you are DARN SURE that the tire is completely seated on the rim (all the way around) then it is pointing to a defective tire. 

 

Let the air back out of the tire then see if the tire STILL looks seated all the way around on both sides with no gaps or distortion. 

 

Have you accounted for all your tools & tire irons. Years ago (back when Kennedy was president) I managed to leave a tire iron in one of my dirt bike tires (long story). That thing shook like crazy even at off-road speeds on soft ground. 

 

[wallyging]

Thanks, dirtrider, I'll check the seating one more time -- I checked twice already after letting the air out and couldn't see any obvious gaps or distortion, but it's worth checking again. In fact, I'll check it right now.....

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, wallyging said:

Thanks, dirtrider, I'll check the seating one more time -- I checked twice already after letting the air out and couldn't see any obvious gaps or distortion, but it's worth checking again. In fact, I'll check it right now.....

Morning wallyging

 

If it looks seated you might actually unseat the tire again then make sure that the inner tube if not caught between the rim & the inside of the bead  (if the tire was installed with a totally deflated tube then the  tube can pucker a bit then a little piece of tube can get caught between the rim &  inside of the tire bead).

 

I usually put just a little air in the tube before installing the tube in the tire as that allows the tube to retain shape & stay fully inside the tire.

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

With the air out I checked for gaps between tire and rim using the corner of a flexible plastic ruler .020" thick. I would go in relatively easily most of the way around the rim on both sides, but not far enough to contact the rim. In a couple of places on each side the ruler didn't want to go in at all. I consider that seated all the way around. What do you think? 

[wallyging]

I'll take the wheel off the bike and unseat the tire to make sure the tube is not visible anywhere before I remove the tire and send it back. 

[Rube]

spin the tire and see if it out of round. 

[wallyging]

Thanks, Rube. Spinning the tire didn't show any out of round.

 

I sent it back to Dennis Kirk today and we'll see what they say.

[Corazon de Pollo]

Wally, please contact the Michelin customer service on the matter. I had dealings with them in the past and they are truly phenomenal.

 

I had ordinary Road 5 installed on my RT and while they were nothing short of incredible in the corners, they made for a pretty scary ride on the straights, especially when loaded on the highway. A phone call to Michelin found out the ordinary Road 5 is not (not) recommended for a long list of applications, including most BMW boxers. I was told to either buy the Pilot Road 4GT or wait for the Road 5GT, which is what I did. Now I write an email to them before buying any new tyre.

[dduelin]

7 hours ago, Corazon de Pollo said:

Wally, please contact the Michelin customer service on the matter. I had dealings with them in the past and they are truly phenomenal.

 

I had ordinary Road 5 installed on my RT and while they were nothing short of incredible in the corners, they made for a pretty scary ride on the straights, especially when loaded on the highway. A phone call to Michelin found out the ordinary Road 5 is not (not) recommended for a long list of applications, including most BMW boxers. I was told to either buy the Pilot Road 4GT or wait for the Road 5GT, which is what I did. Now I write an email to them before buying any new tyre.

While the vibration may indeed be a tire issue it likely is not because it’s a Road 5 and not a Road 5GT. The Road 5 is the recommended fitment for the wethead R1200R according to the Michelin USA website. It doesn’t list models older than 2016 but the 2012 R wets under 500 lbs and is lighter than LC models. My buddy’s 2015 1200R has new 5’s on it, mounted by a dealer.

 

FWIW when I bought my 07 RT last December it was shod with 5s and the owner had ridden them 4500 miles. A BMW dealer had mounted them. Now 5500 miles later they are indeed incredible in the corners but I’ve not experienced instability in the straights at any speed to top speed of 135 indicated. Admittedly most of these 5500 miles was lightly loaded solo and usually with only a top case. I have another pair ready to mount. 

[wallyging]

Dennis Kirk sent a new tire promptly and I mounted, balanced and installed it yesterday...  but the problem persists with the same characteristics as noted in my original post.

 

One more piece of background info. Actually, I noticed this (or similar) problem with the tire I had on the bike before putting the new ones on. I got a flat in the front tire, installed a new tube but didn't bother to balance the whee since I was going to put new ones on soon. I attributed the vibration then to the unbalanced tire. 

 

It seems everything points to tires.  The vibration first appeared when I changed the tube in the old tire, and continued with the new tires and the new tube. The vibration was a sudden change, not something that would likely be due to mechanical parts wearing over time. 

 

I'm mindful of dirtrider's suggestion that maybe tire is not be seated completely. This makes the most sense to me, on the other hand I believe the tire is seated correctly on both sides. I was careful to make sure partially inflated tube was not pinched between tire and rim. I lubed both beads liberally with soapy water, then inflated the tire. I got a nice "pop" on each side as the bead seated (at 40 psi). I went ahead and inflated up to 50 psi before airing the tire back down to 36.  I balanced the wheel meticulously and mounted it following factory torques. So while an unseated tire seems the most logical explanation, I don't see how it could be the problem in this case. 

 

Thanks for all of your previous suggestions which I followed up on. Any ideas where to look at this point?

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, wallyging said:

Dennis Kirk sent a new tire promptly and I mounted, balanced and installed it yesterday...  but the problem persists with the same characteristics as noted in my original post.

 

One more piece of background info. Actually, I noticed this (or similar) problem with the tire I had on the bike before putting the new ones on. I got a flat in the front tire, installed a new tube but didn't bother to balance the whee since I was going to put new ones on soon. I attributed the vibration then to the unbalanced tire. 

 

It seems everything points to tires.  The vibration first appeared when I changed the tube in the old tire, and continued with the new tires and the new tube. The vibration was a sudden change, not something that would likely be due to mechanical parts wearing over time. 

 

I'm mindful of dirtrider's suggestion that maybe tire is not be seated completely. This makes the most sense to me, on the other hand I believe the tire is seated correctly on both sides. I was careful to make sure partially inflated tube was not pinched between tire and rim. I lubed both beads liberally with soapy water, then inflated the tire. I got a nice "pop" on each side as the bead seated (at 40 psi). I went ahead and inflated up to 50 psi before airing the tire back down to 36.  I balanced the wheel meticulously and mounted it following factory torques. So while an unseated tire seems the most logical explanation, I don't see how it could be the problem in this case. 

 

Thanks for all of your previous suggestions which I followed up on. Any ideas where to look at this point?

 

 

 

Morning  wallyging

 

It does sound a bit like a tire not completely seated on the rim but after 2 different tires, the popping at airing up, the recheck for seating, that now seem less possible. (don't rule it completely out but seems far less likely).

 

Are your spokes all tight?-- Use a screw driver or metal rod to thump on all the spokes listening for that clear ping!, if you get a dull thunk or diffenet sound that spoke is probably loose.

 

You didn't bend a brake rotor while working on the wheel did you? 

 

Do you have all the wheel spacers back in &  back in the correct location, did you put the front wheel on the ground then bounce the front suspension before fully tightening the axle parts?

 

If you managed to get some side load on the front forks  (causes stiction) that can make the front end bounce as the suspension won't work & move easily so the front jumps up & down slightly at every road irregularity.    

 

Hold the front brake on then straddle the bike & push it forward & down, see if the front forks stroke smoothly. 

[Hosstage]

You could try a different brand of tire, or the same model from a different supplier.

Does someone you know have the same bike, maybe swap wheels?

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

I checked the spokes and rotors when I had the previous tire on the bike, and both seemed just fine.

 

About whether the tire is seated completely...  one squeeze of the Motion Pro Bead Breaker is enough to break the bead. I don't recall any of my tubeless tires being that easy to unseat. Does that suggest it is not completely seated?

 

Everything points to an improperly seated tire, yet I think I've got it on all the way.

 

What could I be missing?

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, wallyging said:

dirtrider,

 

I checked the spokes and rotors when I had the previous tire on the bike, and both seemed just fine.

 

About whether the tire is seated completely...  one squeeze of the Motion Pro Bead Breaker is enough to break the bead. I don't recall any of my tubeless tires being that easy to unseat. Does that suggest it is not completely seated?

 

Everything points to an improperly seated tire, yet I think I've got it on all the way.

 

What could I be missing?

Morning  wallyging

 

With  all that soap you used it probably will unseat easier until it is run through a few heating cooling cycles. 

 

Sometimes on wider rims & tube type tires the tube won't conform completely to the tire in the bead area so won't push the tire into the rim seating groove completely.

 

Is your tire a tube type  tire, or a tubeless tire, or will it work for either? (look on the tire sidewall). I presume BMW used a tube-type rim, some tubeless rims have a shorter shoulder in the bead area.  You can usually use a tubeless tire on a tube type rim but not  the other way around. 

 

If all else fails try airing the tire up to about 10 psi over max tire pressure rating then ride the bike (carefully) on a rough road surface (that usually seats a difficult to seat tire).  

 

  

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

This is a R1200R Classic bike. It has spoke wheels (BEHR GERMANY 36.31-8 528 870-17MT3,50H2 - BMW - 10698-06.11-E-DOT-D).  As far as I know the Classics bikes all came from the factory with tubeless tires and tubes. The previous tires were tubeless with tubes, installed by a BMW dealer. My bike has Michelin Road 5 tires (tubeless) on it now.

 

I'll air up the tire as you suggest and find some bumpy side roads this afternoon.

[wallyging]

50 miles of riding, about half of it on really bumpy small roads, with 50 psi in the tire, yet no detectable change in the vibration.

 

I think I'll take the wheel into my very experienced tech tomorrow to have him check spokes, bearings, rotors, trueness, seating and balancing.

 

Does a problem tire on the rear feel the same as on the front?

[dirtrider]

7 minutes ago, wallyging said:

50 miles of riding, about half of it on really bumpy small roads, with 50 psi in the tire, yet no detectable change in the vibration.

 

I think I'll take the wheel into my very experienced tech tomorrow to have him check spokes, bearings, rotors, trueness, seating and balancing.

 

Does a problem tire on the rear feel the same as on the front?

 

Afternoon wallyging

 

The rear feels different but it can shake the entire motorcycle so it might seem like the front to some riders, do you feel it more in the handlebars & arms or more in the foot pegs & seat?)

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

I feel it in all of the above, more in the seat, less in the pegs. It does feel like the vibration is in the front, although I don't feel any wobbling in the bars.

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, wallyging said:

dirtrider,

 

I feel it in all of the above, more in the seat, less in the pegs. It does feel like the vibration is in the front, although I don't feel any wobbling in the bars.

Afternoon wallyging

 

 

Any missing wheel weights on the rear wheel? The 50-70 mph shake could definitely be wheel balance but the 20mph is pretty darn low for wheel balance disturbance. 

 

This is going to be more difficult  to track down if the rear wheel is also in the mix. 

 

Did you install the rear tire at the same time as the front? If you installed a new rear wheel did you balance it using an adapter to fit the wheel to your static balancer? If so how much weight is added to the rear wheel?

  

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

Thanks for bearing with me on this...    

 

To recap:  The first time I noticed the problem was when I changed the tube on the front wheel (old tire). I attributed that vibration to not balancing the tire. The second was when I put new tires and tubes on, front and rear. I did the front myself since I could balance the wheel with the tools I have, but took the rear to my dealer to install the new tire and tube, and balance the wheel. The rear wheel has 90 grams of weights on it, the front has 60.

 

I have been assuming all along that the problem is the front wheel since the vibration with the new tire/new tube is the same as the vibration with the old tire/new tube, as nearly as I can recall. I suppose it's possible the rear wheel is the problem rather than the front. 

 

It's difficult to say exactly where I'm feeling the vibration the most. Yesterday I scooted back on the rear seat and it felt the same as sitting in the driver's seat. I don't feel any shimmy or to-and-fro in the bars. The vibration varies with the speed of the bike, and as I said earlier on a glassy section of blacktop I thought I could still feel it faintly as low as 20 mph. That doesn't sound like a tire balance problem to me, either, but I don't see any out-of-round or wobble in either wheel/tire when spinning.

 

I called Michelin and the man on the line was kindly but not very helpful. He made no effort to try to understand or sort out the problem with me - he basically said to take the bike to my local dealer (who handles Michelin) and have them do it. He also wondered whether the Road 5 tires just may not work well on my bike, which I found a little surprising.

 

I'm getting ready to take the bike to my dealer to see if they can figure it out. Anything else I could check before I do that?

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, wallyging said:

dirtrider,

 

Thanks for bearing with me on this...    

 

To recap:  The first time I noticed the problem was when I changed the tube on the front wheel (old tire). I attributed that vibration to not balancing the tire. The second was when I put new tires and tubes on, front and rear. I did the front myself since I could balance the wheel with the tools I have, but took the rear to my dealer to install the new tire and tube, and balance the wheel. The rear wheel has 90 grams of weights on it, the front has 60.

 

I have been assuming all along that the problem is the front wheel since the vibration with the new tire/new tube is the same as the vibration with the old tire/new tube, as nearly as I can recall. I suppose it's possible the rear wheel is the problem rather than the front. 

 

It's difficult to say exactly where I'm feeling the vibration the most. Yesterday I scooted back on the rear seat and it felt the same as sitting in the driver's seat. I don't feel any shimmy or to-and-fro in the bars. The vibration varies with the speed of the bike, and as I said earlier on a glassy section of blacktop I thought I could still feel it faintly as low as 20 mph. That doesn't sound like a tire balance problem to me, either, but I don't see any out-of-round or wobble in either wheel/tire when spinning.

 

I called Michelin and the man on the line was kindly but not very helpful. He made no effort to try to understand or sort out the problem with me - he basically said to take the bike to my local dealer (who handles Michelin) and have them do it. He also wondered whether the Road 5 tires just may not work well on my bike, which I found a little surprising.

 

I'm getting ready to take the bike to my dealer to see if they can figure it out. Anything else I could check before I do that?

 

 

 

 

 

Morning wallyging

 

You are in a  somewhat difficult situation. If the balance is good on both front & rear wheels  (front is kind of a no-brainer as it has central bearings with holes that will directly fit your balance cones) but rear is different as that takes an adapter.

 

If the rear wheel wasn't properly centered on the dealer balancer then  it might have been balanced off center & THAT will make the end result balance worse than no balance at all.

 

If your wheels are both properly balanced, both wheel assemblies spin with little run-out in both directions, & nothing is loose or bent, then you might have a bad tire with a large force variation. You need a force vector type  machine to test for this, or a set of rollers & some force variation measurement tools. (not something that you can do at home). Probably not something that your dealer can do either, at least on a motorcycle. 

 

You might have your dealer check the rear wheel balance again but if you can feel it at 20 mph that sounds more like a possible tire force variation than a balance issue. (if your problem is actually in the tires)

 

The above is assuming that your problem IS a tire issue & not something else  like U joint or drive shaft issue, or overly stiff or sticky suspension. 

 

Usually a drive shaft issue shows up at 3 times tire rotation speed & a tire issue shows up as 1 time per tire rotation.  

 

Just a little explanation on tire force variation-- If you remove your tire then mount 100+  3" long springs all the way  around your wheel for the motorcycle to ride on (springs replace the tire). 

 

If all those springs are the same length, same load, & same rate then the  motorcycle will ride smoothly as each spring in the rotation compresses the exact same amount as it takes & gives up it's loading.

 

Now think what would happen if 6 of those springs were twice as strong as the others? Every time those 6 stronger springs came up in the tire rotation the tire would jump up slightly due to the stronger springs.

 

Well, (in simple form)  a tire is basically a series of springs around your wheel.  If it's not built correctly it can have stiffer or softer  spots around it's perimeter.   

 

My quick check for a tire force variation problem in an automobile is to swap on a set of " known good" tires & wheels, if that removes the problem then I send the tire/wheel assemblies to our tire/wheel department for testing & recording of the force variation.  

 

Sometimes on spoke wheels you can rotate the tire on the rim to match the tire's high force spot to the wheels low spot (usually won't completely remove the problem but can significantly lower the rider felt  force variation). Your issue sounds pretty bad  so IF your problem is in fact a tire force variation problem then I seriously doubt that rotating the tire on the wheel  would remove the problem. 

 

[wallyging]

dirtrider,

 

Tire force variation, as you explain it so clearly, seems quite plausible in this case. Yet, you wouldn't think I'd have the same problem with 2 different tires, however,  the 2nd tire Dennis Kirk sent did look like it might have been ridden previously - I looked at it carefully before I put it on. It seemed to be scrubbed in most of the way to the edge of the tire and the little nipples looked partially worn down. I may have been just imagining. 

 

I think I'll take the rear tire back to the dealer and ask them to re-check the balance. If that's OK, I'll see what they suggest - maybe take the bike over and have them ride it, maybe try different tires, etc., etc. 

 

I'll post again once I figure out the next step and have something to report. 

[Hosstage]

Just curious, what is the date code on each tire? It probably has nothing to do with anything, but it is one piece of info I like to have when chasing tire issues.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Just curious, what is the date code on each tire? It probably has nothing to do with anything, but it is one piece of info I like to have when chasing tire issues.

Morning  Hosstage

 

They can't be very old as he installed the Michelin Road 5, those haven't been around that long. 

[wallyging]

5 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Just curious, what is the date code on each tire? It probably has nothing to do with anything, but it is one piece of info I like to have when chasing tire issues.

 

 

The date code for the front is 2819 and the rear is 3119.

 

[Hosstage]

Relatively fresh tires, so there should be no issue there. Perhaps a batch that had issues? Doubtful, but it's possible, and hasn't been identified or acknowledged yet.

Like I say, date codes are just one piece of info I like to have when chasing issues.

I once had a new tire installed that was 6 years old. It didn't take me long to figure out why it was sliding all over the place. My independent dealer apologized and replaced it, he checks all date codes now before install. That's what makes me ask as well.

[wallyging]

The answer to the question "Is my new front tire defective?" is NO!

 

I took the rear wheel to my dealer to have them recheck the balance. The tech bolted the adapter on, put the wheel on the balancing stand, and it was perfect. Then, while the tire was spinning another tech noticed what looked like an out of round problem. Careful inspection revealed that the adapter was not centered on the wheel (as dirtrider had surmised earlier). With the adapter on correctly the tech removed the 90 grams of weights from one place on the rim and attached 20 grams at a different place, and now the vibration is gone! 

 

Next time I'll try to be more flexible in considering more possibilities. I thought it had to be front tire since the bike vibrated like it did when I replaced the tube on the old front tire without balancing it. And I didn't think it would be the rear since I had the dealer mount and balance that tire, as they have done so many times in the past on my other bikes without a single problem. 

 

Thanks to everyone, especially dirtrider, who responded multiple times and stuck with me on this. I couldn't have tracked down the problem without you, and I learned a lot in the process. That's the bonus in this whole process!

 

PS. I just got off the phone with Dennis Kirk who said they sent the first tire back to Michelin as defective, so there was nothing I needed to do to compensate them for sending the replacement. Great service! 

 

[Rinkydink]

After 41 years in the telecommunications business I learned early on to not rule out anything. “It can’t be that” usually bites you in the butt. I’m glad you found (with DR’s expertise) your problem. Enjoy your R1200R.