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Horseiron1

2013 R1200RT misfire

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Horseiron1
R1200RT 2013 engine misfires
 
As the title says, I’m having a serious misfire on the low end and also while shifting. At highway speeds the bike runs perfect. If a pull the clutch in the bike dies. I can start it right back up. And it’s only intermittently. Some days it runs perfect. Bike has 45,000 miles. Last service was at 42,000. I went ahead and replaced the spark plugs but no change. It does do it more when it’s cold than hot. My valves were within spec and same with throttle body sync. I have a 911 and I have no codes. I thought it might be the coils but I’ve read that they just go out and are not intermittent failure. So at the moment I’m at a loss. 
 
I posted this at the bmwlt forum and was directed here. Since then I’ve replaced all the coils and the o2 sensors. And it runs a lot better, but it still has an occasional hiccup at random and so far the engine doesn’t die anymore. Thanks 

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dirtrider
31 minutes ago, Horseiron1 said:
R1200RT 2013 engine misfires
 
Since then I’ve replaced all the coils and the o2 sensors. And it runs a lot better, but it still has an occasional hiccup at random and so far the engine doesn’t die anymore. Thanks 

 

You did a lot so that eliminated a number of things that needed to be checked. 

 

We can possibly help you with a lot more accuracy if you define exactly when the random hiccup occurs? 

 

RPM that it happens at, throttle opening that it happens at, engine temperature that it happens at,  anything else that more precisely defines when the problem occurs in your riding cycle? 

 

It might come down to having to ride the bike with the GS-911 hooked up then do a data trap when the problem occurs (if you can get I to act up with the GS-911 trapping engine data then we have MUCH better chance at finding the smoking gun).

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Horseiron1

RPM that it happens at. I’d say around 1500-2500. throttle opening that it happens at. When I’m starting off and shifting gears. So probably around 1/8 to 1/2 throttle. engine temperature that it happens at. Anytime. It does it cold and hot. I have a 18mile commute and it does it at the start and at the end of it. Engine is cold when I start out and at operating temperature when I get to work.  anything else that more precisely defines when the problem occurs in your riding cycle? it does it so random that it’s hard to pinpoint. 

 

It might come down to having to ride the bike with the GS-911 hooked up then do a data trap when the problem occurs (if you can get I to act up with the GS-911 trapping engine data then we have MUCH better chance at finding the smoking gun). This will be a challenge because I don’t think I can put the seat on with the gs911 hooked up. And I’ll read up on how to do a engine data trap. 
 

Thanks for the help. (It’s raining today so I’ll have more info on the data on Saturday)

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dirtrider
4 minutes ago, Horseiron1 said:

It might come down to having to ride the bike with the GS-911 hooked up then do a data trap when the problem occurs (if you can get I to act up with the GS-911 trapping engine data then we have MUCH better chance at finding the smoking gun). This will be a challenge because I don’t think I can put the seat on with the gs911 hooked up. And I’ll read up on how to do a engine data trap. 

 

 

 

Afternoon Horseiron1

 

Let me think on this for a while ( I will post back later) 

 

You can usually unbolt the diagnostic connector from it present location, then hook the GS-911 up, then usually find a place to stash it under the installed seat with the GS-911 hooked up. 

 

When it misfires (or stutters) does it only do it for a couple of firings or will it do it for a longer time (like seconds)?

 

 

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Horseiron1

You can usually unbolt the diagnostic connector from it present location, then hook the GS-911 up, then usually find a place to stash it under the installed seat with the GS-911 hooked up. Sounds good. 

 

When it misfires (or stutters) does it only do it for a couple of firings or will it do it for a longer time (like seconds)?Since I replaced the coils and o2 sensors its only done it 3 times and it was just a bump. I was hoping it was the road til it happened the third time on the same ride of 18 miles on the way home from work. And the 3 bumps was closer to home so about the 14-15 mile mark. The first bump has leaving a red light in first gear. And the other 2 was in second gear while making a turn into me subdivision.  Just enough to get your attention and say what was that. I know this is long winded, just trying to give you all the info that I know. Thanks 

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Horseiron1 said:

You can usually unbolt the diagnostic connector from it present location, then hook the GS-911 up, then usually find a place to stash it under the installed seat with the GS-911 hooked up. Sounds good. 

 

When it misfires (or stutters) does it only do it for a couple of firings or will it do it for a longer time (like seconds)?Since I replaced the coils and o2 sensors its only done it 3 times and it was just a bump. I was hoping it was the road til it happened the third time on the same ride of 18 miles on the way home from work. And the 3 bumps was closer to home so about the 14-15 mile mark. The first bump has leaving a red light in first gear. And the other 2 was in second gear while making a turn into me subdivision.  Just enough to get your attention and say what was that. I know this is long winded, just trying to give you all the info that I know. Thanks 

 

Evening  Horseiron1

 

It's not long winded when it comes to problems like this as you can't over-explain the problem but sure can under-explain it. 

 

Any idea on throttle position when it happened the 3 times?

 

Any chance at all that you bumped the side stand with your foot when it happened? Maybe try bumping the side stand down a little on purpose just to see if it feels anything like what you felt. 

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Horseiron1

Any idea on throttle position when it happened the 3 times?I’d say 1/8 - 1/4 throttle. The first time I was starting off from the light and the 2 time I was turning a corner in 2nd gear and was giving it gas when it did it and the third time was when I went to third and gave it gas to just maintain speed. 

 

Any chance at all that you bumped the side stand with your foot when it happened? I don’t think so. I’ve owned the bike since new. It had 4 miles on it and I’ve never bumped it before. It’s possible though, I guess. Maybe try bumping the side stand down a little on purpose just to see if it feels anything like what you felt. I’ll try that to see what it feels like. 

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dirtrider
13 hours ago, Horseiron1 said:

Any idea on throttle position when it happened the 3 times?I’d say 1/8 - 1/4 throttle. The first time I was starting off from the light and the 2 time I was turning a corner in 2nd gear and was giving it gas when it did it and the third time was when I went to third and gave it gas to just maintain speed. 

 

Any chance at all that you bumped the side stand with your foot when it happened? I don’t think so. I’ve owned the bike since new. It had 4 miles on it and I’ve never bumped it before. It’s possible though, I guess. Maybe try bumping the side stand down a little on purpose just to see if it feels anything like what you felt. I’ll try that to see what it feels like. 

 

Morning  Horseiron1

 

It looks like all 3 times that your throttle was moving so maybe hook your GS-911 up then look at the throttle position while slowly moving the throttle (twist grip) though the 1/8- 1/4 open position. Maybe your TPS sensor has a random issue in that throttle range.

 

If you can trap GS-911 data while riding, & get the problem to show up while riding, then you might find that the trapped  data points to the problem area. 

 

 

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Horseiron1

Ok. I will this weekend. Also I played with the side stand and I don’t see where I could hit it. The bike won’t cut off till the side stand is half way down. And the wiring is secured so no movement there. I tried moving the wires and connections and no change, the bike stayed running. 
 

I rode the bike to work today and it rode perfect. No issues. (18 miles)

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Horseiron1

I just took the bike for a ride and it ran pretty good, no misfires. Go figure.  I did a data scan but I cant seem to be able to read it. I'll attach it, if anyone wants to check it out.  When I replaced the coils and plugs, the left lower plug was dark, almost black and wet.  Maybe when it missed the few times it was when it was trying to burn off the residue from the old coil.  Just a theory..

log 2020-01-04.csv

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Horseiron1

Also, the GS-911 I have is the usb version so I have to strap my laptop to the passenger seat. And the laptop went into sleep mode during the ride so I'm not sure how much data it captured.

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Horseiron1 said:

I just took the bike for a ride and it ran pretty good, no misfires. Go figure.  I did a data scan but I cant seem to be able to read it. I'll attach it, if anyone wants to check it out.  When I replaced the coils and plugs, the left lower plug was dark, almost black and wet.  Maybe when it missed the few times it was when it was trying to burn off the residue from the old coil.  Just a theory..

log 2020-01-04.csv 80.54 kB · 1 download

 

Evening  Horseiron1

 

I only have time now for a quick look as I need to line everything up to know what is doing what when.

 

Data would have been more useful if the bike had acted up during that data trap sequence.

 

The thing that stood out on a 'very quick' look is that you had 3 quick instances of the electronics thinking the side stand was down when the motorcycle was moving 80-85 mph. (line 198,  line 220, & line 242)

 

Is the side stand loose (can you move it back & forth showing some play when it is in the up position?)

 

Is the side stand switch loose on it's pin? 

 

It must have been quick if you didn't feel anything while riding, or it was too quick to cause an engine cut out. 

 

On that dark lower spark plug, pretty normal on the lower spark plug on the L/H side as that is the low side when bike is on side stand so any oil that seeps past the piston rings ends up there.

 

You might want to read this thread__

 

 https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/94751-error-10111/

 

It was a 1200 hexhead & only stored a code (no engine cut out) but similar side stand & same type side stand switch. 

 

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Horseiron1

I checked the side stand switch and it looks pretty loose. My side stand moves about and inch when it’s deployed. I’ll see what I can do to tighten it up. I read the link you posted. Very informative. Thanks 

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dirtrider

Morning Horseiron1

 

I looked a little closer at the data this morning & the Idle Actuator numbers look a little confusing in a few places.  

 

They start out looking OK at engine start & end up looking decent at ride completion but there are a few places in the ride that there is a large mismatch side to side (especially on dropped throttle). You didn't get a stall or misfire on this trip so I would just put this in the (cautionary watch category).

 

Those type of 'Idle Actuator' side to side discrepancies can be an indicator of a stepper  (Idle Actuator) getting lost (--pintle position not being where the commanded counts think it should be--) 

 

A lost stepper (Idle Actuator) can definitely cause an engine stall on dropped or closed throttle after a sustained high speed run, then a good re-start with good engine function after re-start (this is consistent with some of your reported problem) but I haven't seen a lost stepper cause a mis-fire condition so that  part of your complaint is not consistent with a lost stepper (at least that I have seen, but I sure haven't seen everything possible).

 

As a rule a lost stepper (Idle Actuator) is caused by  thread wear between the pintle stem & the actuator armature.  (the pintle  to armature basically strips as it moves through it's stroke  so the actual pintle position then doesn't match the commanded counts (basically the fueling computer thinks it knows where the pintle is based on where it commanded it to be  last but the pintle wasn't where the computer though it was).

 

A lost stepper (Idle Actuator) usually shows up most often after  a long hiway run  with lots of throttle movement but no actual stopping or engine idling.   

 

It usually shows up as an engine stall at first stop after exiting the hiway, then after engine restart everything back to normal until the next long hiway ride. 

 

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Horseiron1

Anything I can do to fix the stepper? I’m going to reset and calibrate everything I can and tighten the side stand switch. I’ll take another ride while riding normally instead of riding like a hooligan and take another data capture and see what happens. 

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dirtrider
3 minutes ago, Horseiron1 said:

Anything I can do to fix the stepper? I’m going to reset and calibrate everything I can and tighten the side stand switch. I’ll take another ride while riding normally instead of riding like a hooligan and take another data capture and see what happens. 

 

Afternoon   Horseiron1

 

Not really much that you can do to repair a stripped stepper. Some have put heavy grease on the pintle stem then run the pintle back in. That probably helps for a short time until the grease gets displaced again.

 

It is very easy  to get a BMW 1200 stepper apart but extremely difficult to re-assemble. 

 

If your stalling happens at first stop after a long freeway run then definitely suspect a stepper problem.

 

Your misfire issue is probably something else so probably start with tightening up the side stand.

 

Or, at least put the bike on the center stand with side stand  up, then hook up your GS-911 to trap data, then start the engine, then  wiggle, move, shake, tap on, etc the side stand to see if it captures any switch discreet change.   

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Horseiron1
1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon   Horseiron1

 

Not really much that you can do to repair a stripped stepper. Some have put heavy grease on the pintle stem then run the pintle back in. That probably helps for a short time until the grease gets displaced again.

 

It is very easy  to get a BMW 1200 stepper apart but extremely difficult to re-assemble. 

 

If your stalling happens at first stop after a long freeway run then definitely suspect a stepper problem.

 

Your misfire issue is probably something else so probably start with tightening up the side stand.

 

Or, at least put the bike on the center stand with side stand  up, then hook up your GS-911 to trap data, then start the engine, then  wiggle, move, shake, tap on, etc the side stand to see if it captures any switch discreet change.   

 

I wasn't really able to tighten the side stand as much as I wanted..I went from about an inch of wobble to probably about 1/4 inch.  That measurement is when the side stand is deployed and moving it in and out.  I did another gs-911 capture and not sure how much I got because my laptop went dead during the ride. However, at the first part I wiggled the side stand and deployed it enough to kill the engine and once made it skip.  I'll attach the captured data.  By the file size it captured more data than yesterday.  I wish I could read and understand it. 

 

The bike ran perfect.  No misses or issues. 

 

Thanks again for all your help.

log 2020-01-05.csv

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dirtrider
11 minutes ago, Horseiron1 said:

 

I wasn't really able to tighten the side stand as much as I wanted..I went from about an inch of wobble to probably about 1/4 inch.  That measurement is when the side stand is deployed and moving it in and out.  I did another gs-911 capture and not sure how much I got because my laptop went dead during the ride. However, at the first part I wiggled the side stand and deployed it enough to kill the engine and once made it skip.  I'll attach the captured data.  By the file size it captured more data than yesterday.  I wish I could read and understand it. 

 

The bike ran perfect.  No misses or issues. 

 

Thanks again for all your help.


 

 

Afternoon   Horseiron1

 

According to the data you didn't have those glitches in the side stand switch circuit (that's the good news), so maybe your fix helped.

 

But, the data also didn't show the side stand down when you moved the stand  far enough to kill the engine  (strange). 

 

The Idle actuators still look a little different than I am used to seeing but that would be a stalling thing after a long high speed run  (so see if you get any stalling at first stop after a long freeway run).

 

Ride it while to see what is still happening, & what (if anything), has gotten better.

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Horseiron1
4 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon   Horseiron1

 

According to the data you didn't have those glitches in the side stand switch circuit (that's the good news), so maybe your fix helped.

 

But, the data also didn't show the side stand down when you moved the stand  far enough to kill the engine  (strange). 

 

The Idle actuators still look a little different than I am used to seeing but that would be a stalling thing after a long high speed run  (so see if you get any stalling at first stop after a long freeway run).

 

Ride it while to see what is still happening, & what (if anything), has gotten better.

Thanks DirtRider for all the help and expertise.  I'll keep riding and keep everyone updated. And again THANK YOU!!!

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dirtrider
1 minute ago, Horseiron1 said:

Thanks DirtRider for all the help and expertise.  I'll keep riding and keep everyone updated. And again THANK YOU!!!

 

Afternoon   Horseiron1

 

If by chance it is still acting up-- remember what you did, how you were riding, & for how long, + anything else.

 

Then see if you can duplicate those same conditions again while trapping data.

 

If you could ever trap data when the problem is actually happening we have a much better chance at finding the root of the problem. 

 

 

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Horseiron1

Will do. Thanks 

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Indy Dave

I have or had a similar issue. Not sure it's the same though...... Does your engine mis/surge when this happens? By surge, I mean more or less stop firing and then spring to life repeatedly? Mine would do this, if I closed the throttle, it would die. If I went to WOT, it would run.... but you can only go so far like that. In between those 2 modes, it would buck badly - with unburned gas smell fumigating the riders behind me. If I killed the engine, it would start back up and idle fine, but once underway, the issue would return -often for 15 - 20 minutes. And then it would just run normally. Never threw any codes.

 

Like you, my issues seems is very intermittent, but will predictably appear when riding at START/FART - where the riding involves lots of curves and throttle input (compared to here in Indiana). As a result, I'll change something and think it's fixed, only to find out otherwise.

 

My latest fix was replacing the Throttle Position Sensor. I've not had the issue since - and I've been riding around with the laptop on the passenger seat like you are. I changed my laptop battery settings to keep it turned on, so it will record for hours before the battery dies. I've logged close to 1000 miles since the replacement, and so far no issues.

 

2 dealers have looked at it - and it did act up briefly for one, but not long enough to capture anything telling. The problem of course is that the issue is intermittent and a trip to the dealer isn't helpful if it's not acting up.

 

While out East in NH this Fall, I stopped in MAX BMW and explained my issue to the service manager. He said they'd seen this twice. Once it was the Throttle Position Sensor and the other time it was the fuel pump. Like Dr has said - not an easy diagnose - and both times it took them some time. I wasn't on my bike, btw, when I was in NH. Since I'd replaced the TPS before my visit, I'll keep monitoring it - but probably won't feel the issue is resolved until after START. On all three of my trips down South last summer the bike exhibited this behavior.

 

 

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Horseiron1

Mine was never that extreme but when it did die it was just like your video from Kentucky. (1st video) and mine would only cut out/miss while shifting gears. Once it was in 6th and at speed it never cuts out. 
 

So far it’s been running good. I rode it this morning to work and it ran perfect. 

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Highway41
On 1/6/2020 at 2:18 PM, Indy Dave said:

Here's the bike stalling at low RPM's.

 

bike stalling in KY

 

And this one, also in KY I believe. My head jerking is the bike bucking.

 

https://youtu.be/qohnOq1UvF8

 

 

What a great road in the middle of the second video for the bike to die - pisser.  Hope it is now sorted.

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Indy Dave

UPDATE:

 

After more than a year of long suffering - my engine issues appear to be solved. For more than a year, I've had issues with the bucking, stalling, surging AND very poor fuel mileage - leaving me out of gas on he side of the road more than once. Trips to competent dealers led only to speculation - no codes were being recorded. 02 sensors changed at home, fuel injectors at a dealer. The only real clue to a possible solution came late last Fall, when it occurred to me that after the bike would stall out, upon restart, it would idle smoothly briefly - only to return to the stalling and bucking once under way. And then at some point of its own determination - it would suddenly run fine - often for days or weeks. It would not run "well" until turned off and restarted - even though it would return to running poorly when back under way. So that got me to thinking about the throttle position sensor (or in BMW speak - Throttle Position Valve). So I swapped the TPV with my 2006 - and 2800 miles later - including 2 trips to TN, the issue hasn't returned. A local rider here was having the same issue - only every time he went riding. I let him try my TPV - and it solved his issue. So his was 'bad' all the time, where as mine was misbehaving intermittently.

 

This did not solve the 34mpg issue, however. I bit the bullet and replaced the coils, and the first tankful I got 42 mpg - this is actual MPG - not 'computer' MPG.

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Horseiron1

That’s great news. So far mine is going good and no issues. If it starts acting up I’ll definitely check that out. 

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Pappy35

Awesome. I'll store that away in case it ever becomes frequent for me.

 

PS - I love it when people come back and update older posts. Puts a nice bow on the subject.

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M Novack

On my 2010 RT with just over 60K miles I had a very intermittent misfire or stumble that started up last fall.  I would feel a misfire or slight bucking/momentary power reduction upon acceleration or sometimes just cruising along at highway speeds. It was very intermittent, would occur on most rides especially when colder but a couple rides I never really felt it.  It also seemed that my gas mileage was lower but I was also tending to stay out of 5th/6th gear more on highways, so gas mileage may have been more related to this or that most of this riding has been in colder weather.

 

Scans with my GS-911 showed no codes or errors related to a misfire.

 

I found a set of used coils for sale from a bike with only 6000 miles on it so I decided to buy these as based on all my reading I decided that the coils were a likely cause and I just hoped there was no defects with these used coils that might fog my troubleshooting.

 

About 2 weeks ago I replaced all 4 coils, the spark plugs and while I was at it I did a Throttle Body Sync. No issues with plugs I removed and sync was slightly off.

 

Today I finally had a chance to take a ride as weather was good and I am still working in these times as an essential employee so I decided the short ride to work was a chance to test drive and keep my distance from others. I did not experience any missing at all, bike seems to be running smoother than before. And maybe I had not ridden in a while and I forget, but the acceleration seems to be quicker with more power on demand.

 

Hopefully everything continues and the intermittent problem is behind me.

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Rube

like to keep this topic alive... I have a 2011 RT with similar problems. Valves are all within clearance, feels perfectly in sync. Dealer says valve adjustment and throttle body sync. They were telling me it was plugs but I replaced them and see no difference. They are recommending to push it to redline 10 or so time to blow out any carbon. Not buying it so far. (made no difference) I get some bucking and missing randomly just cruising around 35 or 40. After that it is not noticeable. On a hard excelleration I will feel the miss here and there until it hits 5 or 6K them it pulls strong and smooth. Since the throttle is wide open at this time and the bike doesn't skip I think I can rule out the TPS. The bike is smooth as glass on the interstate. Any thoughts? I hate to go to the dealer and give them my money. Been riding 50 years and do all my own work.

 

Rube

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dirtrider
58 minutes ago, Rube said:

like to keep this topic alive... I have a 2011 RT with similar problems. Valves are all within clearance, feels perfectly in sync. Dealer says valve adjustment and throttle body sync. They were telling me it was plugs but I replaced them and see no difference. They are recommending to push it to redline 10 or so time to blow out any carbon. Not buying it so far. (made no difference) I get some bucking and missing randomly just cruising around 35 or 40. After that it is not noticeable. On a hard excelleration I will feel the miss here and there until it hits 5 or 6K them it pulls strong and smooth. Since the throttle is wide open at this time and the bike doesn't skip I think I can rule out the TPS. The bike is smooth as glass on the interstate. Any thoughts? I hate to go to the dealer and give them my money. Been riding 50 years and do all my own work.

 

Rube

Morning Rube

 

See if you have a partially oil fouled lower spark plug (how did your old lower spark plugs look?).

 

It sounds like possibly a lower spark plug or lower stick coil issue.  The lower plugs are pretty well phase shifted out of use at about 5K so a lower plug/coil issue usually disappears at that RPM. 

 

Difficult to test the lower stick coils as they use an isolated secondary (plus the problem is usually internal arcing & that is VERY difficult to test for).

 

Quick test is to just swap in known-good  lower coils, otherwise it is just an expensive guess on what side, or  even IF, the lower coil(s) are causing the problem. 

 

You might try unplugging the upper coils to see if you can get to idle on just the lower plugs (probably have to hold the throttle open a bit) (caution: actually unplug the coils don't just pull coils off the spark plugs). 

 

But, if the bucking and missing is just sporadic it will be difficult to tell much  just idling on the lowers. 

 

If you can get the misfiring easily  you might catch the side by using a GS-911 to look at trapped lambda sensor data.

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Rube

old plugs were clean, lower plugs darker, normal I am told. I still am a little suspicious of the TPS. I'll have to look up the cost of a replacement.

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dirtrider
34 minutes ago, Rube said:

old plugs were clean, lower plugs darker, normal I am told. I still am a little suspicious of the TPS. I'll have to look up the cost of a replacement.

Afternoon  Rube

 

It doesn't sound like a TPS issue as that would usually  cause a full  mis-fire or big engine sag.

 

At steady light throttle it is operating in closed loop, so unless the TPS is so far off to cause it to drop completely  out of closed loop then it really isn't looking at the TPS signal for fueling control in light throttle closed loop operation. 

 

Now if it runs smoothly at steady light throttle (no, or very small,  twist grip movement) but starts to misfire as the throttle is opened farther then that could  be a TPS input issue.  (But usually a TPS issue would show up in more operating ranges than you are complaining about).

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Rube

Could this be something as simple as a TPS reset?

 

 

like to keep this topic alive... I have a 2011 RT with similar problems. Valves are all within clearance, feels perfectly in sync. Dealer says valve adjustment and throttle body sync. They were telling me it was plugs but I replaced them and see no difference. They are recommending to push it to redline 10 or so time to blow out any carbon. Not buying it so far. (made no difference) I get some bucking and missing randomly just cruising around 35 or 40. After that it is not noticeable. On a hard excelleration I will feel the miss here and there until it hits 5 or 6K them it pulls strong and smooth. Since the throttle is wide open at this time and the bike doesn't skip I think I can rule out the TPS. The bike is smooth as glass on the interstate. Any thoughts? I hate to go to the dealer and give them my money. Been riding 50 years and do all my own work.

 

Rube

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dirtrider
12 hours ago, Rube said:

Could this be something as simple as a TPS reset?

 

Morning  Rube

 

Probably not on 2013 1200RT, especially if your miss happens at steady throttle conditions.

 

But no harm in doing one if it makes you feel better.  

 

 

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