Advice on working with BMW on warranty electrical issue

[stubble!]

Hi all, my 2016 S1000R has an electrical issue and I'm looking for advice on where to go from here. Here's the back-story:

 

The issue first appeared in July. When hot, various errors and lights are thrown on the dash until it just shows "NO CAN". If running, the bike will continue to run, but if shut off it won't restart. After the codes get reset by computer it doesn't reoccur right away, only after it's ridden for a little while. Here's a video of what it looks like: https://youtu.be/z7YR1YAxWbo

 

The dealer looked at it (brought in on last day of 3 year warranty), replaced the dash unit, gave it back to me without errors, and then next ride I took it reoccurred exactly the same as before.

 

Back to dealer (visit #2), this time they said they found a sketchy wire (not sure where) and fixed it. No luck, first ride it reoccurred and I took it right back same day (visit #3).

 

They are stumped, and getting nowhere with BMW. The issue was active when I dropped the bike off. They have had the bike apart, and don't find anything. BMW has been involved but no luck finding the issue. The dealer can't seem to recreate the issue while test riding, but they are not pushing the bike at all on their test rides, while I do ride it harder and get it hot. BMW seems to be stonewalling since they can't reproduce the issue themselves. 

 

I have one electrical accessory (an Eastern Beaver harness wired direct to battery and to taillight for key signal. It drives a power socket. That's all, and they have removed it for testing purposes. 

 

I have a good dialog with the service manager. I have not had any interaction with BMW yet.  So I'm looking for advice. I know some of you have had interaction with BMW around other issues. And I don't know at what point I can invoke California lemon law. It's essentially been in the shop since late July.

 

For what it's worth, I love the bike, but honestly I've lost some confidence in it. If we can find the smoking gun and fix it for real I'd be happy, but at this point I'd also be open to them to buying it from me - I might be interested in another S1000 of some flavor if that helped the conversation with BMW.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Corazon de Pollo]

What I am about to say will not win me any new friends, so read at your own risk.

 

Yours look a whole lot like a K-CAN failure on a BMW car. K-CAN (also known as Body-Bus) is a two-wire system that connects the instrument cluster, climate control, airbag etc on many modern cars. The most common symptom of K-CAN failure is exactly what you are seeing: the instrument cluster shuts down at random with "No CAN" warning, random warning lights are thrown etc. On cars the climate control, interior lights and other units controlled by K-CAN may also become inoperative. Not cool if your airbags go down.

The most common cause of failure of K-CAN systems is a pinched wire, and high temperatures may make things worse as the metal wires first expand and then contract as they cool down, creating all sorts of interferences.

 I may be an electronic ignoramus but I have some hands-on experience on poor wiring.

 

Checking CAN systems requires skill, time and adequate tools most dealerships don't bother acquiring, chief among which is an oscilloscope. Most dealerships will only look for codes (K-CAN line and communication faults in the specific) and if they cannot quickly replicate the fault and/or solve by swapping parts and looking for obviously pinched wires they won't bother wasting time on it but will try to show the customer the door. Been there, done that: dealerships hate dealing with wiring issues, especially under warranty, since they chew into accident repair damage, maintenance etc that generate good revenues. You know where this is heading.

 

I don't know if you were shown the communication between the dealership and BMW. If not, ask for it. I honestly doubt BMW is "stumped" since K-CAN failure is a well known issue on vehicles equipped with it, as are the causes and how to diagnose them. It's just a matter of throwing time at it and perhaps investing in an oscilloscope and the skills to operate it.

And judging by what I have seen lately I honestly doubt BMW is "stonewalling" you: my brother had serious issues with his K1600GTL this Summer and once the dealer started dragging his feet he immediately contacted BMW Motorrad and was contacted in under 24 hours. BMW first arranged a diagnostic session with another dealership and when the problem was diagnosed he was offered a choice of either a (very time consuming) fix or a buying his bike back. He opted for the latter and with the money bought an R1250GS-A from the second and, shall we say, less fussy dealer. We have no lemon law here, this was just BMW trying to keep a good customer happy.

 

You have shown enough patience with your dealer already, but it's not an excuse for not being civil. Sit down and have a friendly chat. If this fails, contact BMW as a last resort, listing all your visits to the dealership and what they achieved. I am sue they'll find a solution for you.

[stubble!]

As an update, the dealer replaced the wiring harness and is test riding. BMW is not willing to buy back the bike despite my pleas, but they have given me an offer of 1k as a goodwill. Assuming the bike is really fixed I’m appreciative of the goodwill gesture, but after 6 months in the shop, that seems pretty small.
 

anyone have a perspective?

[Skywagon]

No advice on settlement...but if they can't reproduce it when riding and you can....ask them to ride along side of you while you reproduce the event.

 

When I have had issues in the past, as Corazon said, they have been resolved rather quickly when I got to BMW Motorrad.  I would suggest (insist) asking to meet the regional rep in person at the dealer.  Show them your documentation, be nice, and see what they will do

[duckbubbles]

This isn't an apples to apples comparison, but here is my story- short version.

 

I went through four water pumps on my '16 R1200RS in about 2 years.  "They" (not sure who) would not approve a fifth.  I had sent pictures of the coolant spewage several times (as had my service rep).

 

I finally sent an e-mail to BMWNA.  I listed the pumps and mileage each was replaced and included a statement that it was difficult to explain to my Japanese bike riding pals that BMW could not fix my BMW.  I can't say if that had any extra effect, but pretty soon I got a phone call from BMWNA to discuss the problem.  I was cordial and explained again what was happening.  It took another month or so and I was told that BMW would purchase the bike back.  It was a total of about six months from my e-mail and I got a check for the exact amount I originally paid for it.

 

The water pump issue was the only thing I didn't like about the '16 and I immediately bought a '17 RS and all is well since.

 

I certainly hope you can come to a satisfactory conclusion to your problem.

 

Frank

[Pappy35]

Wow. That's outstanding. I'm not sure that I would have gone out and gotten another one though unless in the conversation that was an indication that they improved the pump somehow.

 

Regardless, that's an outstanding response from das Mutterschiff.

[duckbubbles]

4 hours ago, Pappy35 said:

Wow. That's outstanding. I'm not sure that I would have gone out and gotten another one though unless in the conversation that was an indication that they improved the pump somehow.

I didn't have any second thoughts about getting the same bike again.  I ride with at least eight other wetheads of different years and models and mine was the only one to have this problem.   The tech at my dealer suspected that it might have been a porous engine case that was causing the problem.  He offered to change out a fifth pump "off the books" but I didn't want to get him in any trouble so I declined.  The '17 has been trouble free over 29,000 miles so far.  Believe me, I find it hard to not take a glance at every wethead's weep hole I see.

 

Frank

[Pappy35]

3 hours ago, duckbubbles said:

I didn't have any second thoughts about getting the same bike again.  I ride with at least eight other wetheads of different years and models and mine was the only one to have this problem.   The tech at my dealer suspected that it might have been a porous engine case that was causing the problem.  He offered to change out a fifth pump "off the books" but I didn't want to get him in any trouble so I declined.  The '17 has been trouble free over 29,000 miles so far.  Believe me, I find it hard to not take a glance at every wethead's weep hole I see.

 

Frank

Oh I get it. I REALLY love those new RS's. To the extent that I might just have to buy one when I'm done with my RT. I've got a couple of years yet to talk the boss into it. 

 

[hopz]

(I thought I replied to this yesterday?)

 

This is what I think...

 

1) I think you need to go to the dealership with a ride home. It is under warranty- or should be since you made the first report while it was...

2) It is their warranty, their job to fix it, or make a fair offer to settle it. 

3) Do not under any present or future circumstance try fix it yourself until it is fixed by BMW

4) If they return the bike saying it is fixed- great give it a try.

5) If it fails again get started on the buy-back immediately as well as damages.

6) Go ahead and find a lawyer... 

[BamaJohn]

 "Believe me, I find it hard to not take a glance at every wethead's weep hole I see."               This is getting a little kinky!  

[Ponch]

video record the problem and show it to them.