Balance the wheel?

[Twisties]

Some people suggest that you should balance your wheels without tires.  I suppose this is to account for most of the balancing requirement, then a small bit of weight that moves each tire change, or even none, is supposed to suffice.  

 

I finally gave this technique a try.   First, last week, I balanced a front wheel with 10 g.  Then I mounted the tire and found a single 5 g weight did the trick.  Happy days.

 

Last night I did it again with a rear wheel.  30 g balanced the wheel.  However, when I balanced it with the newly mounted the new PR4GT I found I was now applying another 30 g nearly opposite the wheel balancing weights.  I removed all weights, and balanced it with 15 g in a completely different location.  

 

Conclusion:  Balancing the wheel is not proper technique.  

 

 

[Paul De]

It seems the balance the rim first idea is sort of redundant step as a rim is not a functional wheel w/o the tire. Balance the system rim/tire once and you are done.  I have seen many times where the the little dot on the tire that is supposed to be aligned with the air stem is way off and that can result in the use of more counter weights to balance the wheel.

[RPG]

The last set of Michelin's I mounted, there was no balance spot (light mark) on the tire, so I installed and then balanced the assy.

 

On tires that have the dot, I first put the rim only on my balance stand to find the heavy spot and mark it. From that I've always lined up the light mark from the tire and in most cases, have had to add very few weights to balance.

 

Good luck,

 

RPG

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Twisties said:

Some people suggest that you should balance your wheels without tires.  I suppose this is to account for most of the balancing requirement, then a small bit of weight that moves each tire change, or even none, is supposed to suffice.  

 

I finally gave this technique a try.   First, last week, I balanced a front wheel with 10 g.  Then I mounted the tire and found a single 5 g weight did the trick.  Happy days.

 

Last night I did it again with a rear wheel.  30 g balanced the wheel.  However, when I balanced it with the newly mounted the new PR4GT I found I was now applying another 30 g nearly opposite the wheel balancing weights.  I removed all weights, and balanced it with 15 g in a completely different location.  

 

Conclusion:  Balancing the wheel is not proper technique.  

 

 

 

 

Morning Jan

 

Balancing the bare wheel is usually the best way (unless the replacement tire is marked for a heavy or light spot). Or a person wants to take the time & effort to mount the tire then do an initial balance check. Then if a lot of weight needs to added rotate the tire 180° then re-check the balance or even try a 90° rotation then a re-check. 

 

 

But, that assumes that the bare wheel is properly balanced (ie properly centered on the balancer shaft).

 

Personally, I probably wouldn't have added 30g to the bare wheel in one spot as the wheel probably isn't 30g out in ONLY  that one little spot. When I add that much I usually split the total weight & place 1/2 of the total   15°-20° on each side of the heavy spot.

 

With that 15g in another location you have also effectively added that 30g nominal wheel out-of-balance  (for the wheel only) but you can't see that 30g or it's location.

 

 

 

  

[Twisties]

19 minutes ago, Paul De said:

It seems the balance the rim first idea is sort of redundant step as a rim is not a functional wheel w/o the tire. Balance the system rim/tire once and you are done.  I have seen many times where the the little dot on the tire that is supposed to be aligned with the air stem is way off and that can result in the use of more counter weights to balance the wheel.

Yes, well, I'm thinking if the rim is balanced, where would you even align the dot, but Michelin doesn't have a dot anyway.  I'm running Dunlops on my bike though, and they do have a dot.  But again, nowhere to align it to.

[ESokoloff]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

.......

On tires that have the dot, I first put the rim only on my balance stand to find the heavy spot and mark it. From that I've always lined up the light mark from the tire and in most cases, have had to add very few weights to balance.

 

Good luck,

 

RPG

 

 

^^^^^^^^^ This

[Twisties]

5 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

But, that assumes that the bare wheel is properly balanced (ie properly centered on the balancer shaft).

We use a Marc Parnes unit with the appropriate attachments for our wheels.  Works great.

[Selden]

My F700 GS, with OEM rubber, has a total of 8 balance weights on the front wheel. 

 

This is not a rhetorical question: How common are out-of-round tires? I have a Yamaha XT225 with Shinko 244 series dual sport (tube) tires. The front wheel pogos noticeably below 30 mph on pavement (I can actually watch the suspension going up and down), gradually smoothing out at higher speeds. It didn't do this with the previous tire, so I suspect that the tire is either out-of-round, or not centered on the wheel. Would unmounting, lubing the bead, and remounting the front tire help?

[Paul De]

21 hours ago, RPG said:

On tires that have the dot, I first put the rim only on my balance stand to find the heavy spot and mark it. From that I've always lined up the light mark from the tire and in most cases, have had to add very few weights to balance. 

 

This makes sense to me, and if it is a rim you'd see again maybe make marks inside between the seat flanges with permanent marker for a done once step. With each new tire the balancing step has to be done regardless if the rim is in perfect balance or not.

 

Not sure what the manufacturing specification is for rim balance, but if you have a wheel that always needs a big load of weights to balance it might be one that is at the tolerance of acceptable. And if a rim balance specification exists and you find a rim beyond tolerance then a warranty claim might be in order...I guess that is a good luck with that claim case though.

[92Merc]

I have a static balancer.  I don't do my own installs, I take it to the local Honda dealer.  They are quick.  But they like Dynabeads.

 

The first tire I had them do had a vibration in it.  They wanted to dump more beads in it.  I decided to buy the Harbor Freight balance stand.  Since then, I've put stick on weight before putting the wheel back on the bike.  No vibration issues since.

[steve.foote]

On my bikes with rim locks or TPS sensors, I balance the naked rim once the first time I change a tire.  From then on I just put rubber on and go.  I've never balanced tires in the 90k I've ridden and never had a vibration.

[Twisties]

15 hours ago, Selden said:

My F700 GS, with OEM rubber, has a total of 8 balance weights on the front wheel. 

 

This is not a rhetorical question: How common are out-of-round tires? I have a Yamaha XT225 with Shinko 244 series dual sport (tube) tires. The front wheel pogos noticeably below 30 mph on pavement (I can actually watch the suspension going up and down), gradually smoothing out at higher speeds. It didn't do this with the previous tire, so I suspect that the tire is either out-of-round, or not centered on the wheel. Would unmounting, lubing the bead, and remounting the front tire help?

 

With those bikes the most likely cause is that the suspension needs to be reset.  Try loosening up the axle, hold the front brake closed, and bounce the suspension, then re-torque.  If that doesn't get it, you might need to loosen more of the front suspension, bounce, and re-torque.

[Chris K]

2 hours ago, RightSpin said:

On my bikes with rim locks or TPS sensors, I balance the naked rim once the first time I change a tire.  From then on I just put rubber on and go.  I've never balanced tires in the 90k I've ridden and never had a vibration.

+1

 

[dirtrider]

18 hours ago, Selden said:

My F700 GS, with OEM rubber, has a total of 8 balance weights on the front wheel. 

 

This is not a rhetorical question: How common are out-of-round tires? I have a Yamaha XT225 with Shinko 244 series dual sport (tube) tires. The front wheel pogos noticeably below 30 mph on pavement (I can actually watch the suspension going up and down), gradually smoothing out at higher speeds. It didn't do this with the previous tire, so I suspect that the tire is either out-of-round, or not centered on the wheel. Would unmounting, lubing the bead, and remounting the front tire help?

 

Afternoon Selden

 

If you can see the suspension moving then  binding  forks probably isn't the problem.

 

As a rule there are  usually 3 things can cause the hop that you are experiencing.

 

__A problem with the tire build (mis-molded, improperly assembled, or basically out of round (you can probably see this if you jack the front end up then spin the tire).

 

__Or a first-order radial harmonic problem like a force variation issue (you probably can't see this but it sure can be felt in the ride)

 

__An improperly seated tire to the rim, sometimes you can see this on an inflated tire & other times you can't while inflated. It seems that tube type tires are more prone to this than tubeless tires (especially if tire was mounted with no mounting lubrication). You can check for this by jacking the front tire off the ground then letting the air out of the tire. Then slowly spinning the tire looking for  variances in how tightly it is seated to the rim.

 

If it is a tire seating problem then you can try simply overinflating the tire  to slightly over max tire rating PSI (that should be on the tire side wall). If it still won't fully seat all the way around then break the bead free & apply some tire  lube to the bead/rim area then re-inflate.

 

Well, there is a 4th possible issue-- Someone could have left something inside the tire at last tire change (like tire iron, or wood block used to hold bead off rim during tire installation, or ??????

 

Many years ago I was running in an enduro race & had a flat tire, I installed a new inner tube that I usually carried, but after remounting the tire I couldn't find my 2nd tire iron. I assumed it just somehow got lost in the deep sand  & tree roots where I was working so I just rode off. First patch of hardpack ground  that encountered I found (actually felt) my lost tire iron.

 

The only difference is my bounce didn't  go away at high speeds.  

 

 

 

 

[Selden]

DR: You left a tire iron inside the tire??? I'm amazed it fit. That's right up there with a surgeon leaving behind sponges or instruments.

 

Since the problem is less noticeable at speed, I'm pretty sure that it's not a balance issue, and will use this as an excuse to deflate the tire, loosen the bead, lube it, then reinflate, bounce, and go for a ride.