Bad Fuel Pump (R1100S - 2004)

[Keith_A]

A couple weeks ago I put in a new Fuel Filter, Pump, and fuel tank Pressure Hoses, and Quick Disconnects on my R1100S (2004).  Bike ran fine on first ride (about 60 miles). On the second ride to the gas station, engine suddenly stopped. Clearly the fuel pump was not operating. (There was about 1.7 gallons of fuel in the tank.)   After about 40 minutes, fuel pump ran and engine started - just long enough to go about 1/4 mile. Had to have the bike towed home. Bike started once off tow truck in my driveway.

After checking the fuel pump relay and wiring to the fuel tank, I connected a spare battery directly to the 3 wire connector going into the fuel tank. Fuel pump would run for about 25 minutes, then stop. After a few minutes, it would start again and run from 10 seconds to a couple of minutes, then stop. I could repeat this cycle, all day long if I wanted to......

The parts were obtained from EME (Euro MotoElectrics).

A)  Has anybody else had this type of fuel pump failure?

B)  Anybody have an opinion on whether the BMW Fuel Pump (made by VDO) are any better or worse than the EME  EnDuraLast pumps?

Keith

[dirtrider]

13 minutes ago, Keith_A said:

A couple weeks ago I put in a new Fuel Filter, Pump, and fuel tank Pressure Hoses, and Quick Disconnects on my R1100S (2004).  Bike ran fine on first ride (about 60 miles). On the second ride to the gas station, engine suddenly stopped. Clearly the fuel pump was not operating. (There was about 1.7 gallons of fuel in the tank.)   After about 40 minutes, fuel pump ran and engine started - just long enough to go about 1/4 mile. Had to have the bike towed home. Bike started once off tow truck in my driveway.

After checking the fuel pump relay and wiring to the fuel tank, I connected a spare battery directly to the 3 wire connector going into the fuel tank. Fuel pump would run for about 25 minutes, then stop. After a few minutes, it would start again and run from 10 seconds to a couple of minutes, then stop. I could repeat this cycle, all day long if I wanted to......

The parts were obtained from EME (Euro MotoElectrics).

A)  Has anybody else had this type of fuel pump failure?

B)  Anybody have an opinion on whether the BMW Fuel Pump (made by VDO) are any better or worse than the EME  EnDuraLast pumps?

Keith

 

Afternoon Keith

 

I'm not sure what, or even if, there is any difference between EME pumps & the BMW (replacement) pumps.  The BMW replacement was (last I knew anyhow)  was a Noris / VDO pump.

 

It sounds like you either have a pump problem or fuel return problem. (if fuel return isn't working then the pump can work too hard & overheat after running for a while). The fuel flowing through the pump armature  is what actually  cools it.

 

If you don't have a fuel return flow problem then give  EME a call & see if they will take care of a pump replacement.

 

 

[Keith_A]

Interesting information.    With the 1.7 gallons of fuel in the tank, the pump does warm up the fuel.  The side of the aluminum tank does feel warm after the fuel pump has been running for about 20 minutes.   With the external battery, the pump draws 4.2 amps. (measured with a Fluke 112 digital multimeter.)   When the pump stops, the current drops to 0.00 amps.

 

Never took one of these motorcycle sealed pumps apart before.    Is there an internal mechanism which disconnects the pump in case of pump overheating?

 

With the pump running (with external battery) the fuel is being circulated through injector "circuit".   Obviously, the injectors are not firing because the power to the bike is off.   Am I correct in assuming that the only other component affecting fuel pump flow is the Pressure Regulator which should be maintaining the injector circuit at 43.5 PSI and returning fuel to the tank ?

 

Keith

 

 

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, Keith_A said:

Interesting information.    With the 1.7 gallons of fuel in the tank, the pump does warm up the fuel.  The side of the aluminum tank does feel warm after the fuel pump has been running for about 20 minutes.   With the external battery, the pump draws 4.2 amps. (measured with a Fluke 112 digital multimeter.)   When the pump stops, the current drops to 0.00 amps.

 

Never took one of these motorcycle sealed pumps apart before.    Is there an internal mechanism which disconnects the pump in case of pump overheating?

 

With the pump running (with external battery) the fuel is being circulated through injector "circuit".   Obviously, the injectors are not firing because the power to the bike is off.   Am I correct in assuming that the only other component affecting fuel pump flow is the Pressure Regulator which should be maintaining the injector circuit at 43.5 PSI and returning fuel to the tank ?

 

Keith

 

 

 

Morning Keith

 

I don't know if the newer replacement pumps have thermal protection or not (the older pumps didn't but who knows on replacement pumps).

 

Yes, the pressure regulator maintains the injector circuit pressure but it does that by cycling excess pump flow BACK through the return hose. If the return side is plugged or deadheaded then the pump pressure  side will go W-A-Y above 43 psi & make lots of heat. (so check that you DO have return fuel flow).

 

The other (slightly possible place) for this problem (especially if you are seeing an open circuit at pump run failure) is the pump pass through plate solder connection inside the tank).  Over the years I have seen a few fail the solder connection at the pump pass through plate  for the pump power, both B+ side & low (ground)  side. They look good to the eye but have very high resistance. The only problem with this theory  is that they usually completely fail, not fail after some pump runtime, but that doesn't mean that it can't happen.

 

Maybe run a couple of small test wires in through the fuel filler cap fill neck then hook them directly to the pump posts, then monitor for power/ground there. If the power/ground circuits stay intact, AND you have good fuel return flow, then it must be a pump problem.

 

Did you replace the pump inlet sock (filter), if that is degraded & collapsing (sucking together) under  hot fuel handling then that could be restricting fuel flow so is therefore restricting pump internal fuel cooling.

 

It is also possible that you received a (returned) pump that was previously sold & the previous buyer ran it outside the tank as a test so no pump motor cooling during that run-up.

 

[spacewrench]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Over the years I have seen a few fail the solder connection at the pump pass through plate  for the pump power, both B+ side & low (ground)  side.

FWIW, a lot of Aprilia Futura owners have had this problem -- there's a passthrough for power & sensor connections through an assembly bolted to the bottom of the tank.  There are 4 brass feedthroughs with solder cups on either side (fuel is sealed by an O-ring around the feedthrough) and the whole mess is potted in epoxy.

Many of the solder joints were cold, so after the inside epoxy starts deteriorating, the joints get loose.  My bike died after ~14 years, with weird "stops running for no reason" symptoms.  If you let it cool off for a while, it'd run fine again...for another mile or two.

[Keith_A]

Hi Guys,

 

I performed the simple fuel return flow test as DirtRider described in a post to somebody else on Feb. 3.    ( ...disconnect the fuel return hose at the quick disconnect then hold the inner check valve open in the quick disconnect of the return hose coming from the rear of bike, then point that hose into a container, then run the fuel pump (you need to see a pencil sized stream of fuel coming out of that rear return hose).     The result was a pencil size stream into Coke bottle.    Consequently it appears that the regulator is ok.

 

Talked to Norm at EME this afternoon and he is sending a new fuel pump.

 

When I receive the new pump later this week, I'll inspect the pump plate pass-through wiring for problems as described by DirtRider and SpaceWrench.

 

Will update later this week when I have more information....

 

Thanks guys,

 

Keith

[Keith_A]

So last Saturday I put in the new fuel pump....    I got 7 miles before the engine stopped.....   Another tow back home (the 3rd time in my entire life).    Yep, the fuel pump had stopped.   This time there was an open circuit (as indicated by my Fluke 112 digital multimeter).   The open circuit on the +12 volts wire was caused by an open in the pass-through connector of the fuel level gauge plate. 

 

The solder connections for the wires on the inside of the fuel tank were all good.    However, I took my Dremel rotary tool with a grinding wheel and slowly removed the potting compound and wiring on the outside of the plate.   Because the wires were embedded in the compound, it was quite difficult to see the disconnected wire as I ground away at the potting compound.   As near as I could tell, the wires were crimped on the the copper connector before potting compound was used to seal the connector.

 

The part number of the existing fuel level gauge plate is 16 14 2 306 683.   The replacement part number (From MAX Fiche and EME)  is 16 14 2 306 895.  (Don't know why the part number had changed unless they made a manufacturing change in the part.)  The cost of the part from EME is $ 340.   I decided that the safest thing to do was to buy a new part.     I'm 99.999% sure this will fix the problem....    Thanks for all your help.

 

Keith

[RPG]

good info Keith. Thanks for sharing and hope you got it solved. Having your BMW towed is both frustrating and pretty embarrassing.

 

1st tow for me last fall in over 300,000 BMW miles. At least the tow guy was funny and commented that this was his first BMW. All the others had been Harley's.

[bcusack]

Interesting, I had the same failure on a 2000 r1100r w 40 k miles. Previous owner and dealer could not troubleshoot it well enough to figure it out after replacing pump, lines, HES etc. Yes the fuel plate is expensive and not as available used as on the RT.  The fuel plates are different between the models. In my case I finally acquired yet another R with 26k miles with a good fuel plate but the bike was shot otherwise...so I have some parts.

 

I did a lot of searching and found only one other instance of this failure and no dependable shade tree fixes for the plate or that potted brew that seals the connection.

 

Nice work!

 

DR, love your work here and have followed you for some time. I really appreciate your knowledge which has helped me a lot on my RT and R pictured below.

 

Love the new site.

[AnotherLee]

Very nice looking bikes, bcusack.