R1100RT Clutch Replacement - Keep transmission and swing arm together?

[Dave748]

I have 26,000 miles on my 2000 R1100RT and I want to lubricate the splines.  While doing that, I will replace the clutch.  I've purchased a clutch kit as well as the stretch bolts and I have read through many threads here as well Chris Harris' R1100RT clutch replacement video.  I have the clutch alignment tool, transmission alignment pins and I'm fortunate to have a complete shop. On a later video, Chris shows keeping the transmission-swing arm-rear drive together and pivoting this assembly away from the bike off to the side to replace the clutch.  This is appealing to me to avoid disassembling the rear drive from the drive shaft, removing the swing arm and drive shaft.

Has anyone here had experience in keeping the rear end-swing arm-transmission together and removing it as one?  

 

 

As this is my first post, my background:

I have 49 years experience working on cars and motorcycles and I'm a mechanical engineer.  My most humorous project on the R1100RT was replacing the entire wiring harness TWICE when I tried to out-smart the ABS low voltage sensing with a new relay.  That's now resolved with everything back to stock.  I have Ohlins on the R1100RT and I've recently had the ABS module rebuilt by ModuleMasters in Moscow, Idaho (great company!).  I also have a 1975 R90S which I've rebuilt including rebuilding the transmission.  I did all the rebuild work on the R90S with the exception of the paint.  The paint on that bike was done by Cliff Weaver, just outside of Gettysburgh, PA.  I can't say enough good things about Cliff and his team.  They are great people and amazing craftsmen.

 

Dave748

[dirtrider]

32 minutes ago, Dave748 said:

I have 26,000 miles on my 2000 R1100RT and I want to lubricate the splines.  While doing that, I will replace the clutch.  I've purchased a clutch kit as well as the stretch bolts and I have read through many threads here as well Chris Harris' R1100RT clutch replacement video.  I have the clutch alignment tool, transmission alignment pins and I'm fortunate to have a complete shop. On a later video, Chris shows keeping the transmission-swing arm-rear drive together and pivoting this assembly away from the bike off to the side to replace the clutch.  This is appealing to me to avoid disassembling the rear drive from the drive shaft, removing the swing arm and drive shaft.

Has anyone here had experience in keeping the rear end-swing arm-transmission together and removing it as one?  

 

 

 

Afternoon   Dave748

 

I have done it that way a number of times. Not the easiest to work with unless you have a way to support the trans/swing arm/final drive. It's not too  bad if working on the floor (I try to not do that if possible as having the  bike on my lift is way/way easier to stand up &  work)

 

As a  rule I pull the darn thing apart as that allows me to lube the swing arm pivots (those are probably in more need of grease than your splines are), it allows drive shaft U joint inspection (if found starting to get notchy then  you can replace before future failure, plus it makes it much easier to re-install the trans without bending something.  

 

If this is your first BMW oilhead trans removal and you plan on removing it as a trans, swing arm/ final drive assembly then my one suggestion is to get a good easy to work with helper for that part of the disassembly.    

[Dave748]

D.R., thank you for the advice.  I have lots of equipment (a 9,000 two post lift, transmission jack, engine hoist, etc.) but a helper is tough.  My son is a fantastic helper (partner) but he's three hours away.  

 

I have the needle bearing replacement (sintered bearing) parts so maybe it's wise to take all the bits apart.

 

This is indeed my first oil-head transmission removal.  I have had the transmission out of my R90S several times (I swapped in a working transmission while I rebuilt the original).

 

Dave748

[Jim Moore]

Why are you doing this? Is there something wrong?

[Dave748]

Jim, Why am I replacing the clutch?  I know I need to lubricate the output shaft splines and happily I have the time and ability to replace the clutch while I’m this deep into the bike. 

[AndyS]

Why are you taking it apart to lube the input shaft splines?

If you have a misaligned system lubing is not going to make much difference. 

If you have an aligned system, that is great.

You can lube those splines in-situ using a Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) powder suspended in solvent - isopropyl alcohol(IPA) .

All you need to do is pop off the starter motor and then a long (extended handle) attached to an artists paint brush (also a good torch (flashlight) so that you can see more easily. - allow the lubricant to be deposited on the top spline of the input shaft. Then, with the bike in gear, just work that shaft round one spline at a time doing the same procedure. The luricant will wick along the input shaft due to the solvent and then the solvent will evaporate off, leaving the MoS2 in place to lubricate between the spline and the disc splines. Don't flood the stuff on, because you don't want it dripping on the disc, but gently gently and it will get in there.

[Jim Moore]

OK, you don't need to lubricate the splines or anything else.  The 1150 (six-speed transmission) has a systemic problem with the input splines / clutch hub. The 1100 does not. There is zero reason to pull that particular bike apart.  (Actually there's no reason to lube an 1150 either. If you have a good one it will go forever. A bad one will tear itself apart every 30K miles, even if you lube it every weekend.)  And there's no need to replace the clutch at 26,000 miles. Most clutches on these bikes easily go over 100,000 miles. 

 

If you simply MUST do something, remove your HES and send it to GSAddict (on the Advrider board) to be rewired. Replace your brake lines with some Spieglers from the Rubber Chicken Racing Garage. As long as you have the tank off you can replace the fuel lines and install some trick metal quick disconnects from Beemer Boneyard. Heck, replace the fuel filter and alternator belt too. All those things can be problematic on a bike of your age and miles. But there is no need to do the work you're planning. 

 

If you're hell-bent on tearing your bike in half, have a ball. I find it easier to take it all apart. It's not super easy to get the transmission rejoined to the engine, and it's harder if you have an extra 30 lbs of metal hanging off the back. You also get a chance to inspect all the pieces, and there are several more splines you can lube. None of them actually need lubing, but you're on a mission. 

[Dave748]

Jim, thank you for taking the time to provide this much detail. I was smiling as I was reading your response as I have long since replaced the brake lines with stainless brake lines. I also replaced the fuel tank line connectors with metal disconnects, I have replaced the fuel filter and I have the parts for a Bosch HES and OEM alternator belt. And as I mentioned above, I had the ABS module rebuilt by MasterModules and it now works beautifully. 

 

I had discussed replacing the clutch with Tom Cutter and his advice was to not simply replace the clutch disc but the entire clutch pack.  I purchased the pack from Tom. 

 

You have given me something to think about. I know I’m capable of this job and yet it is not a trivial piece of work. 

 

Thanks again for the thoughtful comments. 

 

Dave

[Dave748]

44 minutes ago, AndyS said:

Why are you taking it apart to lube the input shaft splines?

If you have a misaligned system lubing is not going to make much difference. 

If you have an aligned system, that is great.

You can lube those splines in-situ ...

Andy, I have read about this and if I remember correctly Mr. Glaves advocates this method. I’ve also watched Chris Harris’ video where he is emphatic this process won’t work. Having read and watched both of these gentlemen I came away feeling I should err on the side of doing the complete job. I am not trying to argue with you. I sincerely appreciate the time you and the other members here have taken to help me out. 

 

Color me puzzled. 

 

Thank you you again for taking the time to respond. 

 

Dave

[Alan Sykes]

OK, so if you DO want to split the bike to do the clutch job, despite the advice of other members above, don't be ashamed.  If somebody tells ME not to do something, that's even more impetus for me to do it...

 

Remember that on a bike the age of yours, it could well be that the lower right-hand locating dowel in the bellhousing-to-crankcase seam is rusted and so the two items are often quite reluctant to come apart.

This was the case on the three different early-2000 bikes I 'did' recently, last year's back-end.

You need to abandon any shyness,  check that there are no cables left connected between the back part of the bike and the main part, remove all the ringer bolts and replace them with headless alignment M8 dowel bolts well-greased, then get a hefty lump of wood to act as pad, place it on a strong part of the gearbox housing ( try harder ) and then grab your heaviest lump hammer and imagine you're about to deliver rough justice to the kneecaps of the boss you once hated the most.

A few solid whacks will part the two castings.

Make sure the gearbox / tranny / rear wheel unit is on a car-jack trolley so you can then slide the entire 85 kilogram lump backwards away from the bell-housing.  Remember that it then immediately wants to fall over to the right because of the imbalance due to the shaft tube / final drive helical gear assembly.

I assume your R1100 has a cable-operated clutch, so there's no need to p*ss about with a refurb of a hydraulic slave cylinder.

 

Buena suerte

 

 

 

[Jim Moore]

In general, if Tom Cutter says one thing and Jim Moore says another, do what Tom Cutter says.  That being said, I'm a little surprised he recommended a preemptive clutch replacement at 26,000 miles. Any chance there was a misunderstanding? Did he get the impression there was a problem of some sort?

[Alan Sykes]

Maybe - both are very canny chaps.

I seem to remember that the misalignment problem that often led to early clutch friction plate hub / gearbox input shaft spline failure was restricted to a smallish batch of USA market bikes, maybe perhaps possibly caused by the crate being dropped during shipping overseas from Berlin.

There's a massive and exhaustive discussion about this on the ADVRider pages.

Life's not long enough to read it all through though...

 

My middle son who manages a big fleet of BMW boxer patrol bikes thinks that a lot of what's expounded on bike forums is largely uninformed and misleading claptrap, present company excepted of course.  But then he doesn't often mince his words.  I love his comment about people like me :-  

 

"If you want to undertake any complex work on your motorcycle, simply close your Haynes or Clymer workshop manual, place it firmly back on the shelf, and take the bike to an experienced trained bike mechanic like one of my lads..."

[szurszewski]

51 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

In general, if Tom Cutter says one thing and Jim Moore says another, do what Tom Cutter says. 

You’re funny. 

 

I was thinkng the same sort of thing about Chris Harris and Paul Glaves - they both know an immeasurable amount more than I, but if I had to listen to one over the other, well, I’d listen to Paul.

[Dave748]

1 hour ago, Jim Moore said:

In general, if Tom Cutter says one thing and Jim Moore says another, do what Tom Cutter says.  That being said, I'm a little surprised he recommended a preemptive clutch replacement at 26,000 miles. Any chance there was a misunderstanding? Did he get the impression there was a problem of some sort?

Jim, I don't want to cast aspersions on Tom Cutter, whom I have the highest regard for.  I told Tom I needed to lube the splines (he agreed it's a good idea) and that while in there I figured I'd replace the clutch.  His advice was not to simply replace the disc, but the entire pack which I've purchased from Tom last week.  Given that, I didn't ask Tom to weigh in on this topic which I know to be controversial, though not quite as bad as an oil or tire discussion?  

[Dave748]

49 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

You’re funny. 

 

I was thinkng the same sort of thing about Chris Harris and Paul Glaves - they both know an immeasurable amount more than I, but if I had to listen to one over the other, well, I’d listen to Paul.

I hope I haven't caused a rift.  I sincerely appreciate all the responses here and I know this is a controversial topic.

[Mike279]

When I bought my RT1150 my clutch was slipping, so I was sure I was replacing it.  So taking everything apart was a good chance to inspect and get a feeling on how all the parts were doing.  I replaced the clutch and slave cylinder(drilling a relief hole too).  I also bought the sintered pivot bearings.  I decided they were not really needed after looking the original parts over.  I did rotate the bearing races to even the minimal wear I found.  I can say after three more seasons the original greased pivot bearing are still doing fine.  The driveshaft in my bike felt a bit too tight and I decided to replace the joint at the rear drive.  I took the old joint apart to inspect it and found it still had enough grease and no real issues.  The tightness was the grease cup seals getting a bit hard. Lesson learned, notchy means noticeably hard to move thru parts of it's range.   Mike

[Dave748]

1 hour ago, Alan Sykes said:

Maybe - both are very canny chaps.

I seem to remember that the misalignment problem that often led to early clutch friction plate hub / gearbox input shaft spline failure was restricted to a smallish batch of USA market bikes, maybe perhaps possibly caused by the crate being dropped during shipping overseas from Berlin.

There's a massive and exhaustive discussion about this on the ADVRider pages....

Alan, thank you for the post.  I'll take a look at ADVRider for the thread.  My son hasn't YET suggested I stop working on bikes or cars.  I'll give that a few years   I'm grateful that my son is also a very capable mechanic (albeit shade tree as he has a white collar job).

 

Dave

[Dave748]

2 minutes ago, Mike279 said:

When I bought my RT1150 my clutch was slipping, so I was sure I was replacing it.  So taking everything apart was a good chance to inspect and get a feeling on how all the parts were doing.  I replaced the clutch and slave cylinder(drilling a relief hole too).  ...

Mike, thank you for the post.  This is helpful!

[Dave748]

1 hour ago, Alan Sykes said:

OK, so if you DO want to split the bike to do the clutch job, despite the advice of other members above, don't be ashamed.  If somebody tells ME not to do something, that's even more impetus for me to do it...

 

Remember that on a bike the age of yours, it could well be that the lower right-hand locating dowel in the bellhousing-to-crankcase seam is rusted and so the two items are often quite reluctant to come apart.

This was the case on the three different early-2000 bikes I 'did' recently, last year's back-end.

You need to abandon any shyness,  check that there are no cables left connected between the back part of the bike and the main part, remove all the ringer bolts and replace them with headless alignment M8 dowel bolts well-greased, then get a hefty lump of wood to act as pad, place it on a strong part of the gearbox housing ( try harder ) and then grab your heaviest lump hammer and imagine you're about to deliver rough justice to the kneecaps of the boss you once hated the most.

A few solid whacks will part the two castings.

Make sure the gearbox / tranny / rear wheel unit is on a car-jack trolley so you can then slide the entire 85 kilogram lump backwards away from the bell-housing.  Remember that it then immediately wants to fall over to the right because of the imbalance due to the shaft tube / final drive helical gear assembly.

I assume your R1100 has a cable-operated clutch, so there's no need to p*ss about with a refurb of a hydraulic slave cylinder.

 

Buena suerte

 

 

Alsn, Thank you for the kind advice and specifics on the bike!  This adds to the post you made some time ago on the R1150 which I read before posting.  As a new guy to this forum, I don't want to be rude to anyone.  Shy is not a characteristic anyone has attributed to me.  Thank you again for the insightful words!   Dave

 

[Jim Moore]

33 minutes ago, Dave748 said:

Jim, I don't want to cast aspersions on Tom Cutter, whom I have the highest regard for.  I told Tom I needed to lube the splines (he agreed it's a good idea) and that while in there I figured I'd replace the clutch.  His advice was not to simply replace the disc, but the entire pack which I've purchased from Tom last week.  Given that, I didn't ask Tom to weigh in on this topic which I know to be controversial, though not quite as bad as an oil or tire discussion?  

You might want to ask him. Ask if recommends a spline lube for an 1100. If he says "yes," have at it. If he says "no," put the parts on the shelf and wait for 150,000 miles.

[szurszewski]

1 hour ago, Dave748 said:

I hope I haven't caused a rift.  I sincerely appreciate all the responses here and I know this is a controversial topic.

I don’t think there’s any reason to think that. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dave748 said:

Jim, I don't want to cast aspersions on Tom Cutter, whom I have the highest regard for.  I told Tom I needed to lube the splines (he agreed it's a good idea) and that while in there I figured I'd replace the clutch.  His advice was not to simply replace the disc, but the entire pack which I've purchased from Tom last week.  Given that, I didn't ask Tom to weigh in on this topic which I know to be controversial, though not quite as bad as an oil or tire discussion?  

 

I don’t think there’s maybe as much disagreement here as you seem to see - sort of like I don’t think there’s as much chance of needing to split your bike as you seem to see.

 

As Mr. Moore said, if you want to do it because you want to do it, it’s your bike and have at it! But if nothing is slipping in the clutch, and you don’t have clunky junky splines....well, I’d rather spend the time riding. 

 

If if you do talk to Mr. Cutter you might want to clarify, as Jim said, whether he thinks you need to do these things vs his just having said, well if you’re going in anyway, so it all. (What I read you having done is: called Tom and told him you “need to lube the splines” - and then he said, well if you’ve already got it apart for X, might as well do Y and Z...)

[AndyS]

Yes. I can't see anyone recommending you take a bike apart for something that has done so few miles. It sounds crazy.

[nrp]

Thanks Andy (and others) for suggesting an in-situ lube method on an oil head input spline.  I never liked the full disassembly of any spline system that is still working OK simply to re-lube the input spline, providing there is no evidence of spline distress.  I'm still suspicious that there may be an alignment problem that may be brought on by some quirk of the assembly technique.  Assuming it's working well, drip the thinned lube onto the spline thru the starter access hole.  I agree.

 

But also, R1100 bikes have this problem too.

[AndyS]

5 hours ago, Dave748 said:

Andy, I have read about this and if I remember correctly Mr. Glaves advocates this method. I’ve also watched Chris Harris’ video where he is emphatic this process won’t work. Having read and watched both of these gentlemen I came away feeling I should err on the side of doing the complete job. I am not trying to argue with you. I sincerely appreciate the time you and the other members here have taken to help me out. 

 

Color me puzzled. 

 

Thank you you again for taking the time to respond. 

 

Dave

Well, I have, and I do this method and it works for me. The choice is yours though. As others have inferred, it seems as though you are itching to take a perfectly good bike apart. Thats fine with me...even if I don't understand why.

[Dave748]

33 minutes ago, AndyS said:

Well, I have, and I do this method and it works for me. The choice is yours though. As others have inferred, it seems as though you are itching to take a perfectly good bike apart. Thats fine with me...even if I don't understand why.

Andy, I'm rethinking my need to take apart my R1100RT.  I was a Reengineering Leader for 18 months in a large organization and the motto of reengineering was, "If its not broken it will be."  I say this as laughing at myself.  I purchased my 2000 R1100RT new and I've maintained it with a fair amount of care.  I would like to continue to ride the bike for a few more years when it will go to my son along with my R90S.  

Dave

[szurszewski]

14 minutes ago, Dave748 said:

Andy, I'm rethinking my need to take apart my R1100RT.  I was a Reengineering Leader for 18 months in a large organization and the motto of reengineering was, "If its not broken it will be."  I say this as laughing at myself.  I purchased my 2000 R1100RT new and I've maintained it with a fair amount of care.  I would like to continue to ride the bike for a few more years when it will go to my son along with my R90S.  

Dave

Ahhh - this makes a little more sense now. Suggestion: ride it those few more years (at your current rate it will be up to maybe 30k by then), and if you really want it to be as new/perfect for your son, put in the new clutch and do whatever else you want to do at that time. Sounds like a project you’d like to undertake with your son, and I think that’s fantastic. As a fall back, from your description, it sounds like this son will be able to pick up any slack should you not feel like/up to doing the work in the future. 

 

If you’re simply looking for a project to do together, consider finding a bike (air or oilhead, if you like) that NEEDS work and fixing that up - either for one of you to own/ride, to sell, or if you really like, to donate to a charity that can auction it off. 

[AndyS]

+1