dan cata Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Hi, I thought I would also post here, besides advrider... The bike is a r1200, 2007 gs, it had a front crash, the owner changed the ring antenna, kept the old key and motronic. Also changed the dash and main headlight. When switching on the ignition, the dash lights up. I am able to crank the motor, but the injectors do not squirt fuel and there is no spark. The key is good, the chip is alive, tested it using a key maker's chip reader. I was able to verify continuity for the barrel switch, the red wire goes to the battery + and the green on in pin 26. I need someone to confim that the antenna wires go to 8 43 55 and 57... or any advice that might help Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, dan cata said: Hi, I thought I would also post here, besides advrider... The bike is a r1200, 2007 gs, it had a front crash, the owner changed the ring antenna, kept the old key and motronic. Also changed the dash and main headlight. When switching on the ignition, the dash lights up. I am able to crank the motor, but the injectors do not squirt fuel and there is no spark. The key is good, the chip is alive, tested it using a key maker's chip reader. I was able to verify continuity for the barrel switch, the red wire goes to the battery + and the green on in pin 26. I need someone to confim that the antenna wires go to 8 43 55 and 57... or any advice that might help Dan. Morning Dan Does the new bike still have it's own Fueling computer & ZFE yet ???????? The key (chip) is registered to the original computers so even with the swap-over antenna ring it won't allow starting. The antenna ring 'itself' means nothing as ALL it does is allow the computer(s) to read the key pellet. The KEY must be compatible with (registered with) the present computers. Do you have any dash codes showing (like EWS?). If you have an EWS showing then the computers are either not reading the key chip, OR, the computers 'ARE' reading the chip but are not properly programed to accept it & allow engine starting. (if it isn't the key to computer thing) -- then Other things to look for are transmission switch/clutch/side stand switch problems. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 The computer is the same, the key and the computer were not damaged. What does the FFE stand for? I always imagined that the antennas can be swapped between bikes. As it has a donor antenna and the key and computer are the same old paired from the factory... it could mean that the wires are interrupted somewhere... No dash error as I remember, just that the ABS is not working; should not matter to starting the engine, right? Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, dan cata said: The computer is the same, the key and the computer were not damaged. What does the FFE stand for? I always imagined that the antennas can be swapped between bikes. As it has a donor antenna and the key and computer are the same old paired from the factory... it could mean that the wires are interrupted somewhere... No dash error as I remember, just that the ABS is not working; should not matter to starting the engine, right? Dan. Morning Dan That should read ZFE. Have you checked for fuel flow & fuel pressure??? Sometimes in a frontal crash it will break the fuel pump mounting. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 ZFE-Basic ZFE type: ZFE-Basic Controller Type: Vehicle Electronics Part No.: 7711746 Hardware Index: C6 Coding Index: 07 Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD): 2004-03-01 MCV: 0.5.9 FSV: 1.3.0 OSV: 3.3.0 Manufacturer: Loewe / Lear HWOE No.: 61700357 Factory I-Level: K024-07-05-520 Actual I-Level: K024-08-08-550 Speed sensor manufacturer is Bosch Speed sensor type is DF11 DWA fitted Heated grips Outside temperature sensor Rear bulb replacement Film type fuel sensor Manual low beam off switch Storage of temperature indication when engine hot No fault codes found Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, dan cata said: ZFE-Basic ZFE type: ZFE-Basic Controller Type: Vehicle Electronics Part No.: 7711746 Hardware Index: C6 Coding Index: 07 Manufacture Date (YY/MM/DD): 2004-03-01 MCV: 0.5.9 FSV: 1.3.0 OSV: 3.3.0 Manufacturer: Loewe / Lear HWOE No.: 61700357 Factory I-Level: K024-07-05-520 Actual I-Level: K024-08-08-550 Speed sensor manufacturer is Bosch Speed sensor type is DF11 DWA fitted Heated grips Outside temperature sensor Rear bulb replacement Film type fuel sensor Manual low beam off switch Storage of temperature indication when engine hot No fault codes found Morning DAn That part looks good, see if you can see the side stand switch & trans switch operation. I will be gone for while so can't post back for a few hours. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 Will check the functionality using the GS911 and report back... Dan. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 Side stand and gearbox switch work as expected, I can see them on the diagnose in all possible states. The bike does not have the front ABS sensor anymore... Just noticed that today, on the diagnose, when the speed was 300+ km/h, whilst standing... When switching the ignition on, I see the EWS and the DWA with a half full battery icon, on the dash. Took some pics of the gs911 outputs: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125785 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125776 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125765 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125640 Does the ignition angle sound right? Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 37 minutes ago, dan cata said: Side stand and gearbox switch work as expected, I can see them on the diagnose in all possible states. The bike does not have the front ABS sensor anymore... Just noticed that today, on the diagnose, when the speed was 300+ km/h, whilst standing... When switching the ignition on, I see the EWS and the DWA with a half full battery icon, on the dash. Took some pics of the gs911 outputs: https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125785 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125776 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125765 https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184125640 Does the ignition angle sound right? Dan. Afternoon Dan The DWA is the anti-theft system so if you get a lasting warning it probably needs batteries (or something wrong with it like disconnected wire or something not plugged in) --Depending on what is wrong with it THAT could cause a crank but no-start condition. EWS (that stays on) means the computer isn't reading the key correctly (like wrong key, antenna ring issue, not programmed into computer correctly, etc) -- A key-to-computer reading problem anyhow. (An EWS showing will definitely not allow it to start). I can't open your links on the computer that I am on now so I will look at them later when I get on my non-restricted computer. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Will try and replace the batteries in the alarm unit, see if that changes anything... Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 Replaced the batteries but no success. Should the wires from the antenna go to this connector? https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184402860 Or another one underneath? Meaning this one https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=0313-USA-10-2007-K25-BMW-R_1200_GS_08_0303,0313_&diagId=61_2630 Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 5 hours ago, dan cata said: Replaced the batteries but no success. Should the wires from the antenna go to this connector? https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D2331532_223_6184402860 Or another one underneath? Meaning this one Dan. Morning Dan Again, I am on a computer that I can't (actually won't) open attachments on, hopefully the below picture will help you out. WSBL= white/blue GEWS= yellow/white GEBR= yellow/brown GNBR= green/brown Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 Thanks, will verify it tonight... Dan. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 The antenna wires are good, verified them one by one. The gs911 allows a key test, the key is active and enabled, appears as "key 2" for some reason. Also... I have seen that the factory and the actual firmware versions are different... k024-04-07-500 vs k024-14-08-500, meaning, that in Aug. 2014, the bike got an firmware update. I am able to access the injectors, test them, hear them, using the diagnose unit. Just that it won't start... Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 39 minutes ago, dan cata said: The antenna wires are good, verified them one by one. The gs911 allows a key test, the key is active and enabled, appears as "key 2" for some reason. Also... I have seen that the factory and the actual firmware versions are different... k024-04-07-500 vs k024-14-08-500, meaning, that in Aug. 2014, the bike got an firmware update. I am able to access the injectors, test them, hear them, using the diagnose unit. Just that it won't start... Dan. Afternoon Dan Quick thought, use the GS-911 to look at side stand switch operation. Also verify cam sensor & crankshaft sensor operation (probably have to do that manually) Are you still getting the EWS warning on the dash?????????? If it stays on then it definitely won't start until that is identified & repaired. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 I have already checked the side stand switch and the gear switch, appear to be working. For the EWS... I had the antenna unplugged and switched on the ignition. After a while, there was the big font EWS shown on the dash, at all times (because the antenna was unplugged). It all went away after I connected the antenna and cleared the error codes. For the camshaft and crankshaft sensors... is there a resistance value I need to measure when spinning the rear wheel? Does the crankshaft sensor get grud built up on it? Or how can I verify them? What should I read on the multimeter, and when? (I'm guessing, most likely, it's a matter of what) Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 7 hours ago, dan cata said: I have already checked the side stand switch and the gear switch, appear to be working. For the EWS... I had the antenna unplugged and switched on the ignition. After a while, there was the big font EWS shown on the dash, at all times (because the antenna was unplugged). It all went away after I connected the antenna and cleared the error codes. For the camshaft and crankshaft sensors... is there a resistance value I need to measure when spinning the rear wheel? Does the crankshaft sensor get grud built up on it? Or how can I verify them? What should I read on the multimeter, and when? (I'm guessing, most likely, it's a matter of what) Dan. Morning Dan OK, your observations show it probably isn't the EWS system. As to testing the crank & cam sensor?-- Good question as I haven't personally measured either one (I usually just substitute in a known good one). First verify that both are firmly plugged into the bikes harness, then maybe try measuring the sensors resistance (just to look for an open). The cam & crankshaft sensor work about the same so they might have similar resistance (just a guess on my part). You might also try disconnecting each sensor then measuring the AC voltage output during engine cranking (not sure if this will work or not). Can you see any tac movement during engine cranking? If you see a tac reading that probably tells you the crank sensor has input. If you don't have any tac movement then that may or may not tell you the crankshaft sensor is bad. Have you tried a 1 hour battery disconnect??? That might reset a locked BMS-KP (more of a hope than a help on this one though). Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 OK, will try the above and report back I have seen some videos where the sensors need powering and then if a metal is in the proximity of the sensor, it changes value. Will see what I can measure. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 On 3/12/2019 at 9:59 AM, dan cata said: Just a short follow up for future readers__ Dan sent me a PM stating that it is now running. He found the below_______ Red is from Dan black added by me. "The crank sensor (connector) was put in, but not pushed (in) all the way... I have pressed it (in all the way) and then tested the spark... voila!!--- Then put on the tank and it fired right up." 2 Link to comment
wbw6cos Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Sometimes it is the simple things. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, wbw6cos said: Sometimes it is the simple things. Evening wbw6cos Problem is, they are usually not 'SIMPLE' until you identify them. 1 Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 It's back Different bike, 2005 GS w/ servo brakes. The owner said it was idling poor, that is how I got to the bike. When I received it, it did not want to start. Cranks but does not start. The bike has ~ 100k kms, pretty rusted, UK model; I opened up the starter motor, cleaned it and greased, now it sounds fine when cranking. The battery is good, it spins pretty normal. When it spins, after a couple of seconds, it just stops spinning, it's weird to describe, but it just cuts off. Not like when the battery is empty, it's like the motronic just cuts the starter button function. Checked for spark and gas, while cranking, both there. The side stands and gearbox switches are OK, checked using the Gs911. I only get this error - 41720 Rear light open-circuit (or Radio Power supply for R900RT (K26) and rear fog lamp for R900RT ECE EU-3 60kW (K26SF) will try and replace the rear bulb. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 4 hours ago, dan cata said: It's back Different bike, 2005 GS w/ servo brakes. The owner said it was idling poor, that is how I got to the bike. When I received it, it did not want to start. Cranks but does not start. The bike has ~ 100k kms, pretty rusted, UK model; I opened up the starter motor, cleaned it and greased, now it sounds fine when cranking. The battery is good, it spins pretty normal. When it spins, after a couple of seconds, it just stops spinning, it's weird to describe, but it just cuts off. Not like when the battery is empty, it's like the motronic just cuts the starter button function. Checked for spark and gas, while cranking, both there. The side stands and gearbox switches are OK, checked using the Gs911. I only get this error - 41720 Rear light open-circuit (or Radio Power supply for R900RT (K26) and rear fog lamp for R900RT ECE EU-3 60kW (K26SF) will try and replace the rear bulb. Dan. Morning Dan If starter is cranking, it has spark (under compression), has gas (enough & good quality) then it will start, UNLESS there is an engine mechanical problem preventing compression or it is sparking at the wrong time, or it isn't getting enough gas (fuel). Your cranking, then a sudden stop in cranking, as well as not starting when cranking, sort of points to a low battery. The hexhead system is very voltage sensitive so if low voltage during cranking then they won't always start. Let me think on this one for a while but in the mean time see if you can measure battery voltage during cranking (with spark plugs installed). You might also try jumping it from another motorcycle to see if it cranks longer or even starts. If voltage drops to under 9.5v during cranking they usually won't start & will sometimes quit cranking. Have you done a TPS relearn? If not also do that. Poor idle can also point to stick coil issues, if all 4 plugs are not working (sparking) properly then they sometimes won't start without holding the throttle (twist grip) to about 1/4 throttle (so try that). Is the gasoline any good???????? (like no water in the fuel??) -- Poor engine idle followed by a no-start can sometimes point to contaminated gasoline. Do spark plugs look fuel fouled right after cranking but no start? Maybe try a different set of spark plugs. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 I remember plotting the battery graph on the diagnose for the same reason you mentioned, it went down to ~ 7-8V minimum. Will try jump starting see if that helps. The owner let the bike well in the autumn and now has changed the spark plugs, all 4 coils swapped for BERU's. The gas patter is strong, as it should be... What you mention with the 9.5 volts might be the reason... but I guess jump starting should clear that, I have a good battery and good quality cables to test this. The gas seems fine, took a part out in a clean recipient and it smells normal; the sparks are fine, the top L/H one seemed wet, the R/H one was not... Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 16 minutes ago, dan cata said: I remember plotting the battery graph on the diagnose for the same reason you mentioned, it went down to ~ 7-8V minimum. Will try jump starting see if that helps. The owner let the bike well in the autumn and now has changed the spark plugs, all 4 coils swapped for BERU's. The gas patter is strong, as it should be... What you mention with the 9.5 volts might be the reason... but I guess jump starting should clear that, I have a good battery and good quality cables to test this. Dan. Morning Dan If your cranking voltage is falling to 7-8 volts then for sure the computers are going crazy that is probably also below the voltage threshold that the starter relay will stay engaged. I have seen the hexhead bikes crank at 9.5+ volts easily with the spark plugs removed but drop like a rock once the plugs are re-installed & it regains cranking compression (this is even more likely if that bike has a BMW Exide Gel battery rather than an aftermarket AGM or lead acid battery). It still could have other issues but first you must get the cranking voltage to 10v or above to rule that out as the problem. Also, if that bike has old (storage period) gasoline in it then get something fresh in the tank (especially if that old gasoline has any alcohol in it) Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 Well... one of the issues seems to be related to the spark plugs. I have replaced the ones on the bike (new ones installed by the owner) with old ones and now I am able to start the bike only if I open the gas half way. Then it does not idle, unless I keep it revvew. The smoke it produces at 3-4k rpm is making my eyes hurt, like the mixture is very rich. The Harmonizer shows a 7 mbar difference between intakes. I think the fuel spray pattern is too wide and too much... and that could only be related to the FPR. I might have access to a used FPR 2 days from now, will try and swap that one and see if that changes anything. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 10 minutes ago, dan cata said: Well... one of the issues seems to be related to the spark plugs. I have replaced the ones on the bike (new ones installed by the owner) with old ones and now I am able to start the bike only if I open the gas half way. Then it does not idle, unless I keep it revvew. The smoke it produces at 3-4k rpm is making my eyes hurt, like the mixture is very rich. The Harmonizer shows a 7 mbar difference between intakes. I think the fuel spray pattern is too wide and too much... and that could only be related to the FPR. I might have access to a used FPR 2 days from now, will try and swap that one and see if that changes anything. Dan. Evening Dan Get some new GOOD gasoline in that thing to rule that out (old gasoline will make your eyes water pretty bad). Also make sure that the crankcase oil isn't polluted with gasoline from a dripping injector or squirting fuel but not firing. Gasoline in the oil will make them run REAL RICH, SMOKE, & BURN YOUR EYES. I doubt it is the FPR (the one on the pump pass-through plate) as I have run a number of 1200 bikes with the FPR totally by-passed & they run & idle just fine. If you have doubts on the oil having gasoline it then just drain some out & see if it will light on fire in a pan. On the 7 mbar difference between intakes?-- just get the throttle plates to open off the idle stops at the same time & hit the wide open stops at about the same time. THEN get it running & see if it will settle down & even out some. If you start adjusting with a vacuum gauge (NOW) the way it is running now then you very well could make the balance worse. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 The vacuum difference was only to find out if there is something restricting the intakes... but on 7 mbar, they are pretty synced. Will change the spark plugs once again and see if that makes a difference. To give you a hing on how it is running, it is like running in one cylinder, sort of... I do also have another set of injectors, I might try out those as well... I am thinking of this FPR https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=0317-USA-05-2006-K25-BMW-R_1200_GS_04_0307,0317_&diagId=16_0633 Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Morning Dan Will change the spark plugs once again and see if that makes a difference.-- That is a great idea. To give you a hing on how it is running, it is like running in one cylinder, sort of...-- That very well could be an injector issue, or a spark issue, or a spark plug issue. I do also have another set of injectors, I might try out those as well.. .-- If you have some handy that would be a good quick test. I am thinking of this FPR-- OK, that one could make a different but it would effect both sides the same. Are you getting any fuel return back through the fuel return line? If not then for sure suspect that FPR. Link to comment
dan cata Posted March 29, 2019 Author Share Posted March 29, 2019 New sparks, new gas, working FPR and no change. I disconnected the O2 sensors and it seems it runs the same way, will try and clean them in a ultrasonic bath, they were black and I remember the color should be more like brown/grey-ish. I really do not know what to do next. The bike was let fine after autumn and now... this... Dan Link to comment
dirtrider Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, dan cata said: New sparks, new gas, working FPR and no change. I disconnected the O2 sensors and it seems it runs the same way, will try and clean them in a ultrasonic bath, they were black and I remember the color should be more like brown/grey-ish. I really do not know what to do next. The bike was let fine after autumn and now... this... Dan Evening Dan You have covered the basics so now we need to look at the oddball stuff. Are you 100% sure that there is no gasoline in the engine oil???? (they run like crap with gasoline in the engine oil) Does it have decent compression on both sides? (with your vacuum reading it probably is but should be verified) Have you checked the air cleaner box for a large mouse nest? Have you done the TPS re-learn? Try disconnecting both o2 sensors then disconnect the battery for about 30 minutes, then reconnect battery & do a new TPS re-learn (this will delete any oddball adaptives) then try starting with o2 sensors still disconnected. Are both side TB's opening at the same time & both opening fully?? "check back later as I will probably think of some things to look at" Link to comment
Rogerl Posted March 30, 2019 Share Posted March 30, 2019 Speaking of a mouse nest make sure that nothing has chewed on any of the wires. I have read some posts where mice have chewed thru wires causing all types of problems. Just a thought Roger L Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 On 3/30/2019 at 3:44 AM, Rogerl said: Speaking of a mouse nest make sure that nothing has chewed on any of the wires. I have read some posts where mice have chewed thru wires causing all types of problems. Just a thought Roger L The harness seems neat, no mice intrusion traces... On 3/29/2019 at 10:38 PM, dirtrider said: Evening Dan You have covered the basics so now we need to look at the oddball stuff. Are you 100% sure that there is no gasoline in the engine oil???? (they run like crap with gasoline in the engine oil) Does it have decent compression on both sides? (with your vacuum reading it probably is but should be verified) Have you checked the air cleaner box for a large mouse nest? Have you done the TPS re-learn? Try disconnecting both o2 sensors then disconnect the battery for about 30 minutes, then reconnect battery & do a new TPS re-learn (this will delete any oddball adaptives) then try starting with o2 sensors still disconnected. Are both side TB's opening at the same time & both opening fully?? "check back later as I will probably think of some things to look at" I have cleaned the O2 sensors, nothing related to that, the bike runs the same... I can change the oil again... if that helps. I did not measure compression, but I can do that in the evening. No mice, I removed the air filter when changing the FPR, everything is clean in there. Checked the air intake tube, clean as well. I do not know how to do the TPS re-learn on this model. I have checked the TPS using the GS911, it shows 90^ at WOT and if I pull the gas linear, it plots a linear graph on the PC - Gs911. Intakes open at the same time, I have checked the butterflys stop on the stopping screws and measured the vacuum, so the butterflys are pretty parallel one to each other, although, that is the sympthom, like they would not be and like one cylinder would be running the other. In the meantime I had to work on another 1200Gs, managed to remove the oil sight glass pretty easily, will describe it in a separate topic. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 5 hours ago, dan cata said: The harness seems neat, no mice intrusion traces... I have cleaned the O2 sensors, nothing related to that, the bike runs the same... I can change the oil again... if that helps. I did not measure compression, but I can do that in the evening. No mice, I removed the air filter when changing the FPR, everything is clean in there. Checked the air intake tube, clean as well. I do not know how to do the TPS re-learn on this model. I have checked the TPS using the GS911, it shows 90^ at WOT and if I pull the gas linear, it plots a linear graph on the PC - Gs911. Intakes open at the same time, I have checked the butterflys stop on the stopping screws and measured the vacuum, so the butterflys are pretty parallel one to each other, although, that is the sympthom, like they would not be and like one cylinder would be running the other. In the meantime I had to work on another 1200Gs, managed to remove the oil sight glass pretty easily, will describe it in a separate topic. Dan. Morning Dan This is difficult over the internet as you have covered the basics. To teach the TPS -- do a battery disconnect for about 3 minutes, then re-connect battery, then turn key to ON (do not start engine) then 'fully open' & 'fully close' twist grip twice. Can you plot on the GS-911 (or data log) the TPS output vs throttle plate position vs engine RPM? How does you input sensor data look? (engine temp, cyl head temp, battery voltage, intake air temp, etc) & BMS-K controlled factors like lambda control factor on both cylinders, injection time, ignition angle, knock sensors, etc. Is one side exhaust pipe hotter than the other side? Will it run on JUST the upper coils, or JUST the lower coils? Will it run on JUST the Right side coils, will it run on JUST the Left side coils. It sort of sounds like it isn't firing on all 4 spark plugs but with new replacement spark plugs that leaves the coils or coil controls to verify yet. You were talking of trying different fuel injectors? Have you done that yet? We just need to get a direction on this thing then we can probably find the problem. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 1, 2019 Author Share Posted April 1, 2019 OK... I have a deadline till Wednesday to find the issue or the customer will pick it up and try somewhere else... Will try the TPS reset. Will look at the parameters on the GS911... Also, I should be able to see there the cyl temps, R/H side vs. L/H side Unplugged the upper coils and the bike is harder to start and it runs even worse. Will try L/H side or R/H side Used different injectors, no change. Will also remove the exhaust, to eliminate that, perhaps it is somehow clogged... Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 18 minutes ago, dan cata said: Will also remove the exhaust, to eliminate that, perhaps it is somehow clogged... Dan. Morning Dan That is a good idea, or if you have an inches of H2o gauge just hook that to one of the o2 sensor ports on the exhaust pipe then run it & look for excessive backpressure. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 2, 2019 Author Share Posted April 2, 2019 Nothing to do with the exhaust, it runs the same. With the O2 plugs disconnected, it runs worse. Because I had nothing else to think of, I swapped the gas pump module, no change. Then I put in a new gas pump, no change. Weird enough, if I disconnect the R/H injector electrical connector, the bike seems to be running the same. If I take out the L/H injector, it hardly starts. But I have spark on the R/H side and the injector is squirting gas... When I took out the tank for the pump swap, I have noticed this... This is the alternator protection, part number 5 in this image (Overvoltage protection 12317680683): I am not sure on what it does... The wire seemed like it was over heated, melted the insulator around it and it intrerupted. When I asked the owner, he said it broke a while ago and soldered it, but now it was broken again... I remember the owner mentioned that for some reason, he was running the bike with the battery disconnected... I guess that is why that part is burnt now. But the questions is: Could this be the source of all my problems? Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, dan cata said: Nothing to do with the exhaust, it runs the same. With the O2 plugs disconnected, it runs worse. Because I had nothing else to think of, I swapped the gas pump module, no change. Then I put in a new gas pump, no change. Weird enough, if I disconnect the R/H injector electrical connector, the bike seems to be running the same. If I take out the L/H injector, it hardly starts. But I have spark on the R/H side and the injector is squirting gas... When I took out the tank for the pump swap, I have noticed this... This is the alternator protection, part number 5 in this image (Overvoltage protection 12317680683): I am not sure on what it does... The wire seemed like it was over heated, melted the insulator around it and it intrerupted. When I asked the owner, he said it broke a while ago and soldered it, but now it was broken again... Could this be the source of all my problems? Dan. Afternoon Dan That protection circuit probably isn't involved, it just runs back to the ZFE to (I think) bump the idle RPM if the system voltage drops low. That injector difference is troubling-- An injector can look like it is spraying good but that can be deceiving. Try removing the upper spark plugs (also disconnect the upper coils), then remove both fuel injectors (with lines & wires still attached), then stick each injector into a similar size & similar shaped container. Now hold the twist grip at about 1/2 throttle & crank engine until a measurable amount of fuel appears in each container. (caution, don't burn the starter up doing this test) Then see if each container contains about the same amount of fuel. (you might have a partially plugged injector on one side) Also try measuring the voltage at each injector while cranking as one (that poor running side) injector might be operating at low voltage. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 3, 2019 Author Share Posted April 3, 2019 I have already changed injectors and there was no difference. If I unplug the upper coils, the bike runs worse. I have ordered the alternator part, 3 to 5 days to get here. Not that expensive, but besides that, I cannot see anything else wrong with the bike... Dan Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 6 hours ago, dan cata said: I have already changed injectors and there was no difference. If I unplug the upper coils, the bike runs worse. I have ordered the alternator part, 3 to 5 days to get here. Not that expensive, but besides that, I cannot see anything else wrong with the bike... Dan Afternoon Dan Well, if you have good fresh gasoline in the tank (at enough pressure), have good spark to all 4 spark plugs (at the proper time), have good spark plugs, have good ( even compression), have good ( even) & proper duration fuel injection, are getting good ( even) air flow to each cylinder, the exhaust is exiting without restriction-- Then it should run evenly & idle OK-- What is it missing? Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 3, 2019 Author Share Posted April 3, 2019 Is that a rhetorical question? Do you know something I don't? Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 10 minutes ago, dan cata said: Is that a rhetorical question? Do you know something I don't? Dan. Afternoon Dan It was just a long winded way of saying to go back over all the basics. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 7, 2019 Author Share Posted April 7, 2019 The gear indicator is acting up, does not show anything when in neutral or shows the 2nd gear. This is happening intermittently. Is the gear indicator involved in the way the bike is running? I remember you asked for the last bike to test the side stand switch and the gear switch... Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 42 minutes ago, dan cata said: The gear indicator is acting up, does not show anything when in neutral or shows the 2nd gear. This is happening intermittently. Is the gear indicator involved in the way the bike is running? I remember you asked for the last bike to test the side stand switch and the gear switch... Dan. Afternoon Dan Not really as long as it starts OK. But, it also depends on WHY the indicator is acting up. If it just due to the gear position switch then no real involvement with how it runs. On the other hand if the dash gear indicator acting up is due to a general a poor chassis grounding issue, or possibly a CAN (CanBus) issue, then there could be some common connection to how it runs & idles. For the general grounding issues then about all you can do is look for corroded grounding points then measure resistance (or just clean the corroded ones). A CAN (CanBus) issue is much more difficulty to find as most issues are invisible to the eye. You might look to see if anything was removed from the bike that left a CAN connector disconnected (unused (CanBus) connectors are usually terminated with a resistor in a terminator cap) I will look to see if I can find an old BMW service bulletin as I (sort of) remember there being a BMW service bulletin on the early 1200GS bikes for a checksum issue on the side stand switch (I can't remember what the end effect was though). Found the service bulletin, it did not pertain to your issue, it was for a stalling problem when putting trans in first gear. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 9, 2019 Author Share Posted April 9, 2019 If there was a ground issue, like the main negative wire that is connected to the engine block, then, if I would run another thick wire from the battery minus terminal to let's say the rear shock upper mounting point, the bike should run just fine. I got the alternator part today, will fit it in the evening... Dan. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 Swapped the alternator part, cleaned the ground connector and engine surface, no luck. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 hour ago, dan cata said: Swapped the alternator part, cleaned the ground connector and engine surface, no luck. Dan. Morning Dan Where are you at with how it starts & runs at the moment? Can you keep it running long enough to use your GS-911 to track the 'throttle valve position' as go from idle to WOT? Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 I can keep it revving above 2500 rpm all the way to the red line. I have plotted the TPS curve and it has no hickups, the graph is either linear or rising and descending like a nice curve. I have only tested this static, I could plot the graph as it revs... The graph for the O2 sensors shows them at the upper side, like the mixture is rich. Dan. Link to comment
dirtrider Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, dan cata said: I can keep it revving above 2500 rpm all the way to the red line. I have plotted the TPS curve and it has no hickups, the graph is either linear or rising and descending like a nice curve. I have only tested this static, I could plot the graph as it revs... The graph for the O2 sensors shows them at the upper side, like the mixture is rich. Dan. Have you tired running it with the air filter completely removed? I haven't seen it often but I have seen paper air filters that got wet so the paper swelled up enough to block the air flow then stayed that way even after drying out. Link to comment
dan cata Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 I have, no change Dan. Link to comment
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