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Hydraulic clutch and related? symptom


Alan C

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First post here. A bit desperate. I did give an honest try to search my issue here and elsewhere for information and ideas about my problem. I got lots (many, many) of results, but nothing targeted. I don't have any friends who are especially versed in things BMW cycle. Other brands, but not BMW. nearest dealer is 60 miles away. Thanks to any and all willing to lend their time and opinion.

 

I just picked up a 2002 R1150RT (44k miles) for a log trip I intend to make in a couple weeks. I have moderate experience working on other bikes Honda 4's, Guzzi and a 98 Triumph.

 

Not knowing this bike's maintenance history, I went through the regiment last weekend (Haynes Chapter One) and overlooked little.

 

The clutch was working normal as I would suspect prior to bleeding. When I opened it for bleeding, the fluid was a dark gray/brown that I'm not sure I've seen before. Thought it must have been a long time coming and went ahead with the bleed using a speed bleeder. Bled as normal until the fluid ran clear.

 

Put the bike back together to begin giving the bike a thorough testing before the upcoming trip. Everything great at first. Started bike to ride to work next day after bleed. Bike wouldn't idle in gear with clutch pulled without help from the throttle. Rode to work, and notice the clutch wasn't fully disengaging fully as I got off the highway. Stalled the bike actually and had a difficult time restarting. Dawned on me that the idle problem was the clutch dragging. Get home later and inspect fluid to find it was as dirty as it was before the bleed.

 

Attempted to bleed again, with mixed success. Fluid cleared up somewhat, but never seemed to build pressure or get the bubbles to stop for certain. Ended with a clutch that would operate well enough to drive the bike back onto the over-center wheel chock on my lift. There it sits.

 

I am trying to make a determination if I have a master or slave problem. Have an aftermarket slave assy on order from Beemer Bone Yard and a master cylinder rebuild kit on order from BMW. Not sure I want to tackle the slave changeover unless I know it is needed.

 

Possibly related; Shortly after finalized the sale I started noticing an intermittent bearing squeal sound coming from the transmission area. This sound was mostly at idle and out of gear and the source remains a mystery. I describe the sound as a come and go sound that is off more than on and mostly at idle. After the clutch bleed and during the malfunction, the sound seems to be reduced or non-existent.

 

I understand there is a bearing mounted to the slave piston that could be the culprit. Maybe it failed and subsequently caused the slave to fail. I also understand there is another bearing mounted o the trans in this area that may be the squeal source. What is the common name for this bearing and the seal that is apparently adjacent? Part numbers for BMW or aftermarket?

 

What are your thoughts about how to isolate a master vs slave diagnosis?

 

While I wait for the parts to show up, I think I will try to plug off and bleed the master cylinder output port and see what kind of pressure builds up at the handle. I think a problem here would be immediately evident.

 

I have not lost considerable fluid, and have not noticed any coming from the trans/engine joint.

 

If I go in for the slave replacement, what else should I do because I'm in there? The bearing and seal mounted in the trans I mentioned above might be a good idea.

 

Thanks again. I'll stay tuned.

 

Alan

 

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Hi Alan C, firstly, welcome to the forum. it's good to have new folk here.

Anyhow, on your bike what sort of bleed nipple do you have at the back end of the bike?

The OEM ones use a special filling adapter that can be a real pain.

As to the squealing, that 'could' be the alternator belt.

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That sounds like a classic slave cylinder failure. Get another one and see if that fixes everything.

 

Good luck, and welcome to the site,

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Thanks guys. The sound is not a classic belt/pulley squeal and originates from something in the rear/bottom. I did change out the belt and tension properly. Sound was present before and after. My gut says either slave cylinder bearing or some other in that area. I'm going in. I hope it takes less than a day.

 

I'm getting familiar with the area. I found this exploded view:

 

clutchbearing.JPG

 

In my mind, there must be a bearing behind seal 2 (I've ordered one in Viton 17x28x7). In my mind, this bearing could also be the squeal source. Is there a common name for this bearing? It looks like both bearing and seal can be changed from the outside of the trans? I gather that leaking DOT4 can damage this seal.

 

What about this 'felt seal' I've read about on the clutch rod? can it be changed from the outside?

 

Parts come in a couple days. I'll share the process as I go through it.

 

Thanks all

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks guys. The sound is not a classic belt/pulley squeal and originates from something in the rear/bottom. I did change out the belt and tension properly. Sound was present before and after. My gut says either slave cylinder bearing or some other in that area. I'm going in. I hope it takes less than a day.

 

I'm getting familiar with the area. I found this exploded view:

 

In my mind, there must be a bearing behind seal 2 (I've ordered one in Viton 17x28x7). In my mind, this bearing could also be the squeal source. Is there a common name for this bearing? It looks like both bearing and seal can be changed from the outside of the trans? I gather that leaking DOT4 can damage this seal.

 

What about this 'felt seal' I've read about on the clutch rod? can it be changed from the outside?

 

Parts come in a couple days. I'll share the process as I go through it.

 

Thanks all

 

Morning Alan

 

Your continually dirty looking hydraulic clutch fluid is usually due to the grease in the slave cylinder bearing area getting past the piston seal & into the fluid.

 

Or could be due to the slave cylinder piston seal degrading & getting into the clutch fluid.

 

The slave cylinder needs to be directly inline with the center of the crankshaft so the slave cyl is bolted directly in line with the rear of the trans input shaft.

 

You can't change the rear input shaft bearing from the outside (trans must come apart) but you can (with difficulty) change the rear input shaft gear oil seal. (seal between slave cyl & rear input shaft bearing)--Just be VERY CAREFUL when removing that rear seal to not drill or punch in too far & damage that rear bearing or you will be removing the transmission.

 

That squeal that you hear is probably coming from the slave cylinder bearing as the pushrod lightly stays in contact with the bearing even with a released clutch.

 

You can change the pushrod felt by removing the pushrod (that felt is an anti rattle felt & supposedly keeps the pushrod from rattling at idle)

 

You should also put just a dab of grease on the front end of the pushrod when re-installing.

 

ALSO-- be very careful when filling, pumping, or testing the clutch master cylinder on the bike as the brake fluid used in the clutch can severely damage your paint or dash plastics. (cover everything & be very careful).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks D.R. I've searched enough on here to know you're all over the place. I appreciate your generous use of time.

 

You and the others have confirmed my suspicions as much as they can be.

 

I just ordered a SKF viton seal (17X28X7 CRW1 V) from Motion Industries.

 

I think I'll neglect the felt ring part unless there is an expeditious and reasonable cost way to get one.

 

Looking at the pictures of the input shaft rear bearing and considering its application, I now seriously doubt there is any problem there.

 

Since I haven't had any noticeable fluid loss, I think I can disregard any thought of clutch plate contamination. When freshly bled, it functions as normal.

 

Wishing I just had cable clutch instead....

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Hi Alan C, firstly, welcome to the forum. it's good to have new folk here.

Anyhow, on your bike what sort of bleed nipple do you have at the back end of the bike?

The OEM ones use a special filling adapter that can be a real pain.

As to the squealing, that 'could' be the alternator belt.

 

Andy, I have the quick fill check valve on the end of the bleed line. It made it difficult to get the speed bleeder to screw in, but once I figured out that a little pressure against the ball allowed threading in the bleeder screw. Seemed to work OK

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Thanks D.R. I've searched enough on here to know you're all over the place. I appreciate your generous use of time.

 

You and the others have confirmed my suspicions as much as they can be.

 

I just ordered a SKF viton seal (17X28X7 CRW1 V) from Motion Industries.

 

I think I'll neglect the felt ring part unless there is an expeditious and reasonable cost way to get one.

 

Looking at the pictures of the input shaft rear bearing and considering its application, I now seriously doubt there is any problem there.

 

Since I haven't had any noticeable fluid loss, I think I can disregard any thought of clutch plate contamination. When freshly bled, it functions as normal.

 

Wishing I just had cable clutch instead....

 

Morning Alan

 

Just be very careful in removing the original rear input shaft seal as I have seen a few that damaged the rear bearing when removing the seal so had to then remove the transmission.

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Just to clarify, It was working fine BEFORE you bled it, but NOW it doesn't?

 

It's a fair point. It also worked for ~50 miles after the bleed and on inspect the completely renewed fluid looked like the dirty fluid I had just bled out the day before. I've never seen brake fluid so dirty. I've probably put less than 150 miles on the bike total at this point. I think that bleeding it washed out some swarf which hastened the slaves demise.

 

I spoke with a well respected BMW mechanic from youtube today. I was gratified that even he returned my call. He thinks I should bleed again and extra diligence to get any air out near the master before I go whole hog on a system overhaul - including tilting the bike to the right. I have no authority to challenge his opinion, but I'm about to got on a 3k mile ride. For peace of mind I'll feel alot better if the system is renewed, and if the squeal is related, I may just cure that too.

Edited by Alan C
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He thinks I should bleed again and extra diligence to get any air out near the master before I go whole hog on a system overhaul

 

So do I. In fact after you have bled it, I'd tie the lever tight against the handlebars for a day. this certainly helps with the brakes, and I'd give it a shot with a problamatic clutch bleed too.

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Just to clarify, It was working fine BEFORE you bled it, but NOW it doesn't?

 

It's a fair point. It also worked for ~50 miles after the bleed and on inspect the completely renewed fluid looked like the dirty fluid I had just bled out the day before. I've never seen brake fluid so dirty. I've probably put less than 150 miles on the bike total at this point. I think that bleeding it washed out some swarf which hastened the slaves demise.

 

I spoke with a well respected BMW mechanic from youtube today. I was gratified that even he returned my call. He thinks I should bleed again and extra diligence to get any air out near the master before I go whole hog on a system overhaul - including tilting the bike to the right. I have no authority to challenge his opinion, but I'm about to got on a 3k mile ride. For peace of mind I'll feel alot better if the system is renewed, and if the squeal is related, I may just cure that too.

 

Morning Alan

 

All that black crud came from something. Brake fluid didn't go in looking like that & brake fluid won't turn that color on it's own.

 

So, where did all that black crud come from?? Pretty well 2 choices, the grease from the slave cylinder or the seals from either the master cylinder or slave cylinder.

 

If you just bleed it again then go on your trip then it might work out OK. But if you lose a slave cylinder on your trip not only will it ruin your trip but it could ruin your clutch & your trip.

 

Replacing a slave cylinder while on a motorcycle trip is an expensive pain, replacing the clutch while on a trip is something you will remember forever.

 

If you replace the slave cylinder before the trip you will have a much more peaceful & worry free trip.

 

You still have that squeal thing to address & just re-bleeding won't repair that.

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Replacing a slave cylinder while on a motorcycle trip is an expensive pain, replacing the clutch while on a trip is something you will remember forever.

 

If you replace the slave cylinder before the trip you will have a much more peaceful & worry free trip.

 

You still have that squeal thing to address & just re-bleeding won't repair that.

 

This is where I am. Master and slave parts arive today. Rear input shaft seal tomorrow. Now I need to fit the job in with 1000 other things in life. I've got ball Allen wrenches, swivel extensions and a lift. Only other thing I'd like before I start is a more difinitive disassembly process. Is there any knowledge of such an instructional here? More specifically for the r1150rt is best. I've done some searching anf read some instructions on the job. Looks more difficult in this model than some other oilheads.

 

Thanks to all

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Replacing a slave cylinder while on a motorcycle trip is an expensive pain, replacing the clutch while on a trip is something you will remember forever.

 

If you replace the slave cylinder before the trip you will have a much more peaceful & worry free trip.

 

You still have that squeal thing to address & just re-bleeding won't repair that.

 

This is where I am. Master and slave parts arive today. Rear input shaft seal tomorrow. Now I need to fit the job in with 1000 other things in life. I've got ball Allen wrenches, swivel extensions and a lift. Only other thing I'd like before I start is a more difinitive disassembly process. Is there any knowledge of such an instructional here? More specifically for the r1150rt is best. I've done some searching anf read some instructions on the job. Looks more difficult in this model than some other oilheads.

 

 

Afternoon Alan

 

It is a bit difficult, replacing the slave is a pain but replacing that rear input shaft seal is very difficult without removing the swing arm. If you manage to damage the bearing under the seal then it turns into a very difficult job.

 

It is more difficult on the 1150 than the older models like the 1100 as the 1100 didn't have a hydraulic clutch, so no slave cylinder.

 

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I took it apart tonight. Not too bad coming apart at an un-rushed 2-1/2 hours. Here is what I found. The grease mud seen in the end of the piston was caked pretty solid. I accidentally wiped some off before taking a picture. TThe bearing in the piston is clearly shot, and the piston seal isn't fitting very snug. Should the push rod just slip out? I haven't given it much effort, but it seems to be fixed at the other end. I didn't anticipate the seal in the trans to be so deep in the bore. Its now clear that changing the seal is very difficult from this position.

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I took it apart tonight. Not too bad coming apart at an un-rushed 2-1/2 hours. Here is what I found. The grease mud seen in the end of the piston was caked pretty solid. I accidentally wiped some off before taking a picture. What is this stuff and where is it coming from? The bearing in the piston is clearly shot, and the piston seal isn't fitting very snug. Should the push rod just slip out? I haven't given it much effort, but it seems to be fixed at the other end.

 

slave1.jpg

 

slavebore1.jpg

 

slavebore2.jpg

 

piston1.jpg

 

 

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I took it apart tonight. Not too bad coming apart at an un-rushed 2-1/2 hours. Here is what I found. The grease mud seen in the end of the piston was caked pretty solid. I accidentally wiped some off before taking a picture. What is this stuff and where is it coming from? The bearing in the piston is clearly shot, and the piston seal isn't fitting very snug. Should the push rod just slip out? I haven't given it much effort, but it seems to be fixed at the other end.

 

 

Morning Alan

 

Those push rods usually need a pretty good pull to get them to come out. You will probably need to use small long nose Vise Grips to get enough grip on the push rod to get it to start moving.

 

Looks like you found where the black in the fluid is coming from.

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I'm glad to hear that (stuck is normal) thinking about a vise grip with a slide hammer attached to the adjust bolt. I fear that it could be friction welded into the mating piece on the other end.

 

The disassembly was much easier than I feared. I did not remove the left or right body panels, or any left side foot control hardware. The various write ups Ive seen, seem to be more involved than necessary.

 

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I'm glad to hear that (stuck is normal) thinking about a vise grip with a slide hammer attached to the adjust bolt. I fear that it could be friction welded into the mating piece on the other end.

 

Morning Alan C

 

Yes, that can happen. Sometimes they can stick pretty tight.

 

I have even had to pound on the rear of the push rod with a long brass drift to get them to come loose.

 

Be sure to put a small dab of grease on the front of the push rod (or new push rod) when you reinstall it.

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Alan, I'm so sorry to hear your 'new' bike is causing you so much irritation. Remember that the hydraulic clutch slave cylinder sourced by BMW Spandau comes from Magura, a Slowakian manufacturer which makes hardware for push-bikes, not motorcycles.

 

Berlin-Spandau's excuse when they were extensively criticised in the specialist media back in the day, for choosing such an inadequate and failure-prone item, bleated that the reason was lack of sufficient space in the area where it's installed.

 

For sure the design of that Magura item was never intended for continuous use in a heavy-duty old-fashioned single-plate dry clutch application as is required by this big heavy bike.

 

The specification and consequent inclusion of the item came right at the start of the depressing phase in BMW Motorrad's history, when the Armani suits of the BMW Car Division in Munich decided that the Berlin plant wasn't making enough money for Frau Quandt's combine - and so should short-cut and cut back on materials content / quality in their vehicles, thus destroying the firm's reputation for durable, reliable, well-thought-out motorbikes.

 

The process of decay has continued of course, evident from the fact that the clutch design was completely rethought in 2012 around the outsourcing of a cheap multi-plate wet clutch pack available for flumpence in bulk quantities from China, as included in newer BMW bikes. Along with all the hundred-and-one other components of Chinese origin built into them.

 

It's such a pity that BMW's pricing structure remains at luxury-market German and American levels, ( 300 bucks for a fifty-buck Gates final drive belt for instance, sold only by BMW under an exclusive supply arrangement ) instead of at those Chinese prices.

 

Your problem is almost certainly a failed slave cylinder and Chris Harris for one, absolutely swears by the apparently up-rated version of the item sold by his friends at Beemerboneyard.

 

See his U-Toob video on failed slave cylinders.

 

Regards from sweltering Andalucía,

ALAN

Edited by Alan Sykes
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Alright then. Visegrip, slide hammer, Magic! Popped it loose on the first go. Both shaft ends look decent. It appears the shaft was bound up on the smaller diameter shank and its matching bore.

 

So I'm thinking high temp synthetic brake caliper grease is the right stuff to dab on the end of this shaft. It's thick and sticky. Is it the conical shoulder that takes the thrust of the clutch cylinder and which should be greased?

 

The seal in the case is not going to be changed. It was not the culprit here. It appears to be working, and even if it fails at some unforeseen time, the cavity where the slave fits is sealed with another gasket anyhow.

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...The disassembly was much easier than I feared. I did not remove the left or right body panels, or any left side foot control hardware. The various write ups Ive seen, seem to be more involved than necessary.

 

Alan, any chance you could post a couple pics of the bike in its disassembled state? I'm anticipating the eventual need for this on my RT so it would be interesting to see how you did it. Thanks...

Edited by MarkAZ
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Alan C,

 

You might want to drill a weep hole in the slave cyl housing to give any leakage a place to drain besides your clutch. See my post #978698 with pics.

 

A bunch of pics here of the whole thing - replaced the clutch and drilled the weep hole because of this same problem as you have on my '99 R1100S.

 

Tranny, Clutch and Slave Cyl

 

That weep hole CAN be drilled with the tranny still in situ, slave cyl in or out. I'd prefer to drill with the slave cyl out but it can be done. The K bikes came with this weep hole (same slave cyl type mount) until 2002 for those who still don't do anything that "the factory" doesn't approve.

 

dVHoJ16gYBNHifzeiSVkEEWuGrLzXjI3CWvu9_IWMT-j5WATQJvDE1cJHl1bEtYuMllCHCPSKIGDufzSGy3t8s7OUuwlJL8Cbp_-nv35q1FNhyJmoUMislRoCoPIYKZHM4CCn4LM16NiSbyzIDY_w81IYtuEui96RTG8d_Y9_Zo4GdPUx-NHqZmnkG4_s0eGaJgLvACpif2qrnNU6xrrb_WCpiPyzL1yFd5Yu2ZVj264XzOKNHOfGwdQqKvt9QVmmfwqK5p2pgzHjqweWdFc-LYWhC23F9czaHal7VEhshNfEyET9tmlJkOGJTZARpl1X0v7FargIylRdG9V8dd_YQqwIQr9s99cNoOd6X1LnfxE3GFDendteTd2YC5I3DYPD49uJcAoOnnbSPYRsuFou4XR72hZIqFmbWugf7L6149OKA5KhPQAIu4TXnsm9jrtEEdb6uB-jh82PLrBs7KWQgndUnHMQyC18niJVhTqzX_dwMsQ7GSMOztSI50Wea2yaU2VF7GO8mCrYLLFjmXE6_ZKNNzj1nQfvhjJpjMZZE_Mm9PfQvuQVGkcYl0uHjCb4-wd6P2RDqmK1GMhGTM86JdISQSFvzJFzofJxD8ZjG44bwWlYsB1GEvMsxat37R7NJDGtwx86p5pUbjnXE9UCcx3gIg3xIilkXGkFx1nYFb3BQ=w1133-h637-no?.jpg

 

AQbKYkkMO-AnT4_hw5Nsi0RC82g6jabEDaLm9_w7NsKvV1pikHUWKt1855SU7RSHx50XQ4jRr516LAWylE6d_qUkDMpYb51_85kETI2OsQrcDUBp1BO_B8KqvvMjJhata60Edbdq7wdg5xhqV1hs2c-o9wTVKfywWYhgDGuO0IKbWGep13ilqruknkBmUtfBwuy1dT_FkiZVXxIxFw18O1Ig1togsWnl8kXIPfbIN8X_D9iLEvIZetvIRQTHoVHtzQbBLwC6CKeqVF2WpLd9wsh9wxYmvuVj20900WZMrd5LOShggw2gl4OkVgS4jBcz_1zbBbD8_yoZTF0G7ABbpSIvJqqTQQ4INXcuOTQjnJ8quXMvB63tK8dLYTl4VQ55n_l0lmh9HPsePQo6SZv5REoGPQjY6hnAn8jHQmjQVvECkrE2WtlJf6uxjNbY8CKRIIjzN3V_-jM2pBnvtnYXRzGJsBo9T8Vy_9qr4hXqBs28iBjpAtb8lkVm0GFWkIi6-MNdEHYP_jPaQ9qtSEBy9soapKpUU5cQTdnrC3VR6fdgNukUWlw2KDe-VFOthVsQXCf83d5JjFfKn6v0GiEKBfJiuaNZLiXOGUNxmHBRL4EIAGlP6IgadJ7rvh4OvwHXJnSVerIy5ddHPE7gBslhfbQkqxmFWs7a9cgnSMdloSV5Hg=w359-h637-no?.jpg

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Update.

 

I have the bike buttoned up. I bottom filled the clutch since it was completely empty. I found I still had to do a brief traditional bleed as well. I think maybe I trapped a little air at the bleed nipple on the bottom fill.

 

Clutch is working well now and no more squeal. The clutch is very on or off now and making the shifts much more abrupt now. Not liking that. I'm thinking about a heavy trans oil.

 

Great idea Lowndes. Unfortunately I was done by the time I saw it.

 

I took pictures all through the re-assembly so I can document the process both ways. As usual, going back together was more time consuming than coming apart. I made a small mistake that I will highlight. I'll do this after I'm all set for the upcoming trip. Lots to do for that and get my son ready to go off to school.

 

Alan

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Alan. I'm in the process of replacing the slave on my 03 1150rt

and was wondering how you got to the bolts. Did you remove rear shock ? Also was there enough slack in the lines to move slave to a location where you could get tools on banjo fittings to loosen and reinstall ? Glad yours went so smoothly.

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Alan C,

 

On my bike it's possible to drill the weep hole without removing anything except maybe the shift pedal. It takes a long extension and a 1/4" hex drive bit, but it can be done, even with the slave in place.

 

Yea, I know it's a PITA, but it sure beats a clutch replacement.

 

By the way, did your bike show any signs of oil along the seam on each side between the tranny and engine cases?? Maybe on the center stand beneath the tranny??

 

 

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AlanC. :- Don't worry about the rather abrupt clutch feel now that you've done the swap-out or refurb of the slave cyl. Several experts confidently assert that with this old-fashioned, out-dated single-plate dry clutch design, you should only ever use the lever as a switch - in-and-out, as fast as that. And never stand at a red light or in traffic with the lever held in whilst in first gear. That paltry, inadequate slave cylinder will sweat its little goolies off over time if you keep doing that.

AL in s.e. Spain - where we're all r e a l l y sweating at the moment...42 degrees at the end of August ! Whew....

Edited by Alan Sykes
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