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R1100RT "surging"


Matth3w

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forgive me if im in the wrong place, im most certain what I have is considered an oilhead. So last year I lost my Honda in an accident, this past month I was given a 99 R1100RT, much much larger bike than my 79 cb650. bike runs pretty good other than every so often at cruising speed doesnt matter the gear, it has a slight jerk which I was told is called "surging" and that I needed to sync the TPS. I tried using the following :

{1. Loosen throttle cable (left side)

2. Loosen throttle body crossover synch cable (right side)

3. Back out the left throttle plate stop screw (underneath left side)

4. Attach DVM to red-white TPS wire #1 (rear) - ignition on

5. Move TPS to obtain zero reading (.006 volts) and lock TPS

6. Move left throttle plate stop screw to obtain .370 volts and lock screw

7. Large brass bypass screws in, bike on, warm engine, rough idle expected

8. Turn the large brass bypass screws out in 1/4 increments if bike will not idle; attach carb stix

9. Set right throttle plate stop screw using carb stix

10 Reduce TPS in increments of 0.020 if idle exceeds 1100-1200 rpm

11. Reset throttle cable (left side) to .5 mm free play

12. Perform the "Throttle Body Synch for Dummies" }

 

for the life of me no matter how much I played with it I couldnt get the left side to even out with the right. I made my own manometer with the clear tube and atf.

 

now my left cylinder does get about 10 more psi than the right when tested warm and WOT could this be the cause of me not being able to get a good reading? other than the surging it runs good, no mods, 84k miles, never laid down. by the way I set the TPS to 0 then tightened the stop screw until it hit .380 volts. im not sure what else I can do. any german huggers out there that can help a fellow rider out?

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roger 04 rt

Surging isn't unusual on your model. The adjustment procedure you used likely made your situation worse by unbalancing the throttle plates and misadjusting the TPS (for example you don't adjust it to influence idle speed).

 

To get a baseline you need to redo your work. Have a read through this thread (on the 1150 but similar except for cable tensioning) and study the procedure at the end:!https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?73962-TPS-Alignment-Idle-Speed-Adjustment-Beyond-Zero-Zero.

Edited by roger 04 rt
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Morning Matth3w

 

2. Loosen throttle body crossover synch cable (right side)--Your 1999 1100 doesn't have a crossover synch cable. If your bike does then you either have a much earlier bike than a 1999 or someone installed the very early 1100 single cable throttle system.

 

Your need to start over using the later Bowden box era procedure (don't use the 0=0 procedure as that is incorrect information)

 

That 10 psi of compression difference has little effect on idle balance but even so you should easily be able to balance that out once you get the base idle screws set correctly.

 

Unless WAY off the TB balance has little effect on the BMW 1100 surging, the surging is a fueling thing not an air balance thing.

 

Hopefully Roger will post in here-- He has a later TPS/base idle screw setting procedure than I personally use.

 

 

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There is only the one cable coming off of the twist bar, where it splits I don't know. I didn't mess with the stop screw on the right send only cable tension and the big brass guy. Since I couldn't get it to respond to my poormans manometer I did it by ear. I only did this because I had both bodies off to clean the soot. They guy who gave it to me said a dealer told him it had a burnt valve and they wanted 3500 for the rebuild, well when I got the bike it had 160 psi in left side and 150 in right. Highly unlikely a burnt valve. I cleaned all the soot out cause it acts like a sponge and the bike fired right up after sitting for 3 years.

 

I read on another forum where they adjusted the tps using pin 1 and 3 on the 3 pin diag plug under seat but it wasn't very clear. The man date of the bike is 3/99

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Afternoon Matth3w

 

There is only the one cable coming off of the twist bar, where it splits I don't know.--This doesn't tell you much. The BIG difference is in how the cable splits then goes on to both side TB's. If it uses a single cable all the way to the L/H side then same cable goes on to the R/H side then it has a crossover cable.

 

If the upper cable goes to a Bowden box (splitter box) then 2 separate cables go on from that box to each TB then it doesn't have a crossover cable.

 

 

I didn't mess with the stop screw on the right send only cable tension and the big brass guy. --That's good. You should probably just go back & match the idle balance of the L/H TB to the existing R/H TB.

 

 

 

Since I couldn't get it to respond to my poormans manometer I did it by ear. --If it doesn't respond to a liquid manometer then you have serious problems. Either plugged vacuum nipples or the base idle screw setting is WAY off.

 

I only did this because I had both bodies off to clean the soot.--How much did you clean?? You definitely need to clean both side BBS passages & screw tips (you can't get a decent idle balance with gunk in the idle air by-pass passages)

 

 

I read on another forum where they adjusted the tps using pin 1 and 3 on the 3 pin diag plug under seat but it wasn't very clear.-- You sort of can but you have no idea on the base voltage that way. (do it by TPS voltage at proper idle screw settings). You might use Roger's way as I do it a different way as I like a higher base TPS voltage.

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I actually pulled the injectors off and put them in a carb bath. I didn't think it would hurt it.. Hopefully not. Its one of those paint cans you get from local part store and has a dip basket. I didn't pull the brass screw out and manually clean that passage way.

 

I probably have the box. I don't feel like taking tank off again but I can see the cable run right under middle of tank and there is a single cable that comes out of both sides to TB.

 

Would the offset throttle stop cause it to surge?

 

Also there a lot of popping in exhaust on throttle release. The baffle needs repacked so is that why or is she running rich.

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Afternoon Matth3w

 

I actually pulled the injectors off--The INJECTORS?, or are you referring to the throttle bodies?

 

put them in a carb bath. I didn't think it would hurt it.. Hopefully not. Its one of those paint cans you get from local part store and has a dip basket. I didn't pull the brass screw out and manually clean that passage way.--Did you remove the TPS sensor & fuel injectors before dunking the TB's? (I hope so)--

 

You positively need to remove the BBS screws then clean their tips as well as clean out the air passages under the BBS screws (you can do it on-bike with o2 & cat. converter safe carb cleaner. Set BBS screws to 1-1/2 turns out as a starting point to match base idle screw positions (don't move BBS screws until you get base idle screws set.

 

I probably have the box. I don't feel like taking tank TB off again but I can see the cable run right under middle of tank and there is a single cable that comes out of both sides to .--Your 1999 should have come with the Bowden box cable set-up.

 

Would the offset throttle stop cause it to surge? --Probably not unless WAY/WAY off -- Light throttle surging is usually a fueling problem not an air matching issue.

 

Also there a lot of popping in exhaust on throttle release. The baffle needs repacked so is that why or is she running rich. --Probably neither, usually a lot of popping is an air leak into the exhaust or a non-stock muffler, or mis-adjusted TPS, (stock muffler is non repackable)

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yes, when I said I pulled injectors off I meant I pulled them off the TB before dipping. also removed tps which is only on the left side.

 

just for my own reference what does BBS stand for? big brass screw?

what will happen if I remove BBS without idle screw set first? lol

 

it has OEM muffler on the bike, the guy I got the bike from told me i can drill out the rivets and repack it.

 

 

thanks for your continued replies

 

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Evening Matth3w

 

just for my own reference what does BBS stand for? big brass screw?--Yes, Big Brass Screw

 

what will happen if I remove BBS without idle screw set first? --Nothing, they are just by-pass air adjustment screws (remove, clean, reinstall to 1-1/2 turns out from seated)

 

it has OEM muffler on the bike, the guy I got the bike from told me i can drill out the rivets and repack it.--OEM muffler isn't riveted so something not adding up there.

 

 

 

 

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ok so i found out this muffler is a "Delkevic Slip On" the guy i got it from has had the bike since 4k miles and said it was all original so the first owner must of made the switch.

 

Edited by Matth3w
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one of those links I read that roger gave me is confusing me, it says that if you are using a 12 volt LED that it should be lite with throttle closed. but if you are using a volt meter it should read 0 volts at throttle closed, if you read 0 volts at throttle closed whats powering the LED?

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ok so i found out this muffler is a "Delkevic Slip On" the guy i got it from has had the bike since 4k miles and said it was all original so the first owner must of made the switch.

 

Morning Matth3w

 

With a great number of aftermarket mufflers you will get popping & gurgling in the exhaust upon dropped throttle as there is just enough reversion to allow air to enter the muffler & ignite the remaining fuel.

 

 

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one of those links I read that roger gave me is confusing me, it says that if you are using a 12 volt LED that it should be lite with throttle closed. but if you are using a volt meter it should read 0 volts at throttle closed, if you read 0 volts at throttle closed whats powering the LED?

 

Morning Matth3w

 

I don't know what link that you are referring to but the above would depend on HOW you are powering the LED or how/where the voltmeter is connected.

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roger 04 rt
one of those links I read that roger gave me is confusing me, it says that if you are using a 12 volt LED that it should be lite with throttle closed. but if you are using a volt meter it should read 0 volts at throttle closed, if you read 0 volts at throttle closed whats powering the LED?

 

You're referring to a link within the link I sent you. Don't worry about that, if you need to set the TPS just measure the voltage between pins 1 & 4. This is the only part I was suggesting you familiarize yourself with: R1150 TB Sync Procedure

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I got the intakes finally matched and as far as I can tell the surging has stopped but now it seems to be idling rougher (only on warm up) idk maybe the bike is getting old. I'm glad the surging has gone away. Thanks for the help.

 

On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

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Your fast idle lever (or Choke as BMW names it) may not be opening the throttles enough, quite often the cable stretches. After a cold start, try holding the throttle open enough so that your engine is at 1800 rpm. Does it idle well then?

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Well I got the intakes finally matched and as far as I can tell the surging has stopped but now it seems to be idling rougher (only on warm up) idk maybe the bike is getting old. I'm glad the surging has gone away. Thanks for the help.

 

On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

 

 

On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

 

Morning Matth3w

 

That bike will do an 18' box with a little practice, with a LOT of practice & perfect cross control it will just do a 16' box but this is not an easy task as it takes a LOT of counter body leaning with severe bike leaning with much clutch slipping. You also have to enter/set-up perfectly.

 

Most subsidized riders training will furnish the bike for the new rider training & testing (usually a much smaller bike)-- You usually need to sign up well in advance to guarantee a spot but if you just show up early at start of class there is usually a few no-shows so in a lot of cases the instructor will find you a spot in class.

 

If you decide to try to get your endorsement on that 1100RT (not an easy bike to ride slowly leaned over without lots of experience) then give that box a lot of thought. You can pass your test with a couple of points down so if the box is your biggest problem then touch a foot in the box, or just go wide on one side & take your penalty. If you try too hard to make that box (feet up) & manage to fall over you will instantly flunk the endorsement test. Just remember that you can slightly tighten your turn & aid slow speed control by lightly dragging the rear brake (or lightly pulsing the rear brake). You can also lightly work the clutch engagement opposite the rear brake apply to tighten the turn even more.

 

Learn the correct clutch & brake control as well as counter body lean (or counter body position) & that bike will just sing through a 24' box with ease.

 

If you are a newer rider then a BMW 1100RT wouldn't be my first or even my second choice for a bike to use for an endorsement test though.

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On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but what is this 'endorsement' you talk of? What is it for?

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On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but what is this 'endorsement' you talk of? What is it for?

 

Morning Andy

 

In the USA we need a license to drive an automobile on public roads, to legally ride a motorcycle on public roads we then need an additional endorsement on that drivers license showing that we have passed a motorcycle riding/operating test.

 

To get that motorcycle endorsement we need to show the ability to ride & stop correctly as well as negotiate certain simulated road hazards & maintain proper control of the motorcycle.

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On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

 

I would not take my M endorsement test on an R1100RT.

 

Why not just take the MSF beginners class? Doesn't passing the MSF course automatically give you the endorsement? I thought that was the practice in all states.

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On a side note has anyone taken their endorsement on one of these beasts? Is it top heavy or is it just me? In Ohio you have to turn around in a 24 ft box and I'm struggling with it. Just curious .

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but what is this 'endorsement' you talk of? What is it for?

 

Morning Andy

 

In the USA we need a license to drive an automobile on public roads, to legally ride a motorcycle on public roads we then need an additional endorsement on that drivers license showing that we have passed a motorcycle riding/operating test.

 

To get that motorcycle endorsement we need to show the ability to ride & stop correctly as well as negotiate certain simulated road hazards & maintain proper control of the motorcycle.

Thanks DR

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I passed my endorsement with the 1100! all the other guys were on 400lb rice rockets.

 

new problem now, ok so when you start the bike the abs light cycles and once you roll forward it runs a diag and shuts off. every so often recently it wont shut off from a rolling start but if I kill the bike while already rolling and start it back up diag runs fine and abs stops flashing. why is that?

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Well I passed my endorsement with the 1100! all the other guys were on 400lb rice rockets.

 

new problem now, ok so when you start the bike the abs light cycles and once you roll forward it runs a diag and shuts off. every so often recently it wont shut off from a rolling start but if I kill the bike while already rolling and start it back up diag runs fine and abs stops flashing. why is that?

 

Morning Matth3w

 

I sort of sounds like a low system voltage (low battery voltage after starting). (kind of common on the old 1100 BMW's)

 

The only way to know much is for you to tell us EXACTLY how the lights are flashing before & after you have this exact problem.

 

My guess is that the lights are flashing differently right after startup on the times that you have the problem.

 

So pay very close attention to how the lights flash when everything is normal then pay close attention to how they flash when you have the problem (then let us know the flash sequence, like alternately or together & exactly when they start to flash alternately).

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