1999 R1100RT cold start rough idle, CCP questions

[dukesean]

Hi there,

 

Long time lurker here, finally got me into beemer when I found this '99 RT that spend it's last 10 years in pieces at garage as PO want to replace fuel filter but never finished. Bike only had 18,000 miles.

 

 

 

 

 

So here is what I did:

 

1. Clean fuel tank: it has some tiny white powder like residues inside, it looks good after cleaning.

2. New fuel filter: PO already put 4 new hoses inside and out, they still looks new even thought they are 10 years old. And they never met with gasoline yet so I just screws in the new filter.

3. New used intake manifold as the old ones cracked.

4. Replace old rubber brake lines: At first I thought Spiegler probably will be the only option for whole sets. But $200 brake lines for a $500 bike? I need to think about this a little bit more. And then I found out that R1200RT had SS lines from factory, so I got a perfect match new rear line that's for Harley for $7, and full set used R1200RT front lines for $10. All the length are good except R1200RT use lower triple as line connector, so I found a used brake line connector from Honda GL1000, another $11, that's long eough to connect 2 short lines from calipers. We're back to business after some slight line angle adjustment.

 

 

5. New tires.

6. All fluids changed.

7. TB clean and syncs.

8. And clean, clean, clean.......

 

Results:

 

 

After 300 miles. Here is some questions, probably will have some more later on:

 

1. Idle is rough at first 2 minutes when cold start, and fast idle choke did not help much. After reading a lot about CCP, I found that it runs best without CCP and CO pot and choke will actually doing it's job to rise idle to 2000~2500rpm. Bike will died if I pull choke all the way when using pink or beige CCP. Is this sounds right? PS: canister and CO pot has been removed, and O2 sensor connected.

 

2. Is there a better rear brake pads will have less dust? The Brembo one just create too many dust.

 

3. Rear wheel is very hard to turn even with brake caliper removed at first. It turns freely after about 200 miles, and neutral light shows up more frequently as well. Do you think final drive oil need to be change again as it probably clean and contains all the old sludge now.

 

Thanks for the helps

Sean

 

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by dukesean

[dirtrider]

Afternoon dukesean

 

1. Idle is rough at first 2 minutes when cold start, and fast idle choke did not help much. After reading a lot about CCP, I found that it runs best without CCP and CO pot and choke will actually doing it's job to rise idle to 2000~2500rpm. Bike will died if I pull choke all the way when using pink or beige CCP. Is this sounds right? PS: canister and CO pot has been removed, and O2 sensor connected.-- First off the choke is not really a choke, it is JUST a fast idle control (I know it says choke but it really isn't)

 

With the CCP removed the o2 sensor is doing nothing as no CCP in the 1100 forces open loop.

 

With NO CCP & no idle trim pot it is idling at about the richest it can run. If it still runs poorly cold then you either have an input sensor not working correctly, or low fuel pressure at cold start, or something else causing a lean cold idle. Or something like a spark plug getting oiled up after engine shut down, or ??????

 

2. Is there a better rear brake pads will have less dust? The Brembo one just create too many dust.--When I used to run the 1100RT I liked the stock organic rear brake pads the best.

 

 

 

[dukesean]

Thanks dirtrider.

 

So you think it's better to run with CCP and CO pot? There are so many threads about that, but I just confused more after reading some of them. PO must tried a lot before as I got 3 CCP (beige, pink, yellow) and 2 different air inlet( I think one of them is from GS ).

 

BTW, the plugs are good, dry and brown.

Edited June 27, 2017 by dukesean

[dirtrider]

Thanks dirtrider.

 

So you think it's better to run with CCP and CO pot? There are so many threads about that, but I just confused more after reading some of them. PO must tried a lot before as I got 3 CCP (beige, pink, yellow) and 2 different air inlet( I think one of them is from GS ).

 

Afternoon dukesean

 

I don't know about better but that is usually about the richest at light-throttle-opening & idle. (or said another way-- no CCP & no idle trim pot usually gives the least light throttle surging) -- That is assuming no 3rd part add on fuel controller.

 

Using stock components then no CCP & an idle trim pot adjusted for a slightly rich idle is probably best as that allows decent light throttle fueling without an overly rich idle.

[dukesean]

I see. Thanks.

 

I didn't see any other fuel controller besides GS air inlet and K&N air filter.

 

I would like to try to put all stock RT components back to see how to goes.

 

Do you have any ohm number for CO pot? I saw some site has 1000, 800, 200.

 

[Jim Moore]

Let's stop for a minute. First, what country are you in? There are different configurations for different countries. It sounds like yours has been altered, but let's try to figure out what it was originally.

 

Second, what did you mean when you said the fast idle (choke) didn't help much? As your throttle cables stretch your choke will (essentially) quit working. It will eventually simply take up the slack instead of opening the butterflies.

 

Third, GS air inlet? Do you mean the intake tubes?

 

Last, I recommend you go back to the stock air filter. I don't think you're helping yourself with the K&N.

[dukesean]

Thanks Jim.

I'm at San Jose CA, so it's a US model.

 

I'll try to explain as clear as possible with my poor English. The choke lever has 2 stops. Lever will hold it self at stop 1, this do nothing to idle when start cold or warm. I'll need to manually pull and hold it to stop 2 when start. It'll increase idle to around 1300/1400 when cold, and will stall if I rev it while hold the lever.

 

Sorry, don't know correct name. It's the tube between air filter box and TB. The GS one has smaller diameter than RT's.

 

Yes, that's what I had in mind too.

[Jim Moore]

Your English is great. The oilhead terminology is a little strange.

 

The US models never had a CO pot. I don't see any reason to install one. I prefer to run with no CCP. That richens up the mixture a little bit and makes the bike run better imo.

 

The throttle has a three cable system. The upper cable (attached to the handgrip) goes into a box under the tank. It turns a wheel inside the box. The lower cables are also attached to the wheel, so turning the wheel pulls the lower cables, opening the butterflies. The "choke" turns the same wheel. using the choke is the exact same thing as holding the throttle slightly open.

 

Your lower cables have stretched, so turning the wheel via the choke lever is simply taking up the slack, not opening the butterflies. You need to remove the slack and synch the throttle bodies. If you goggle "r1100 throttle body synch" you can spend the day reading and watching YouTube videos.

 

But buy an OEM air filter first, so you know you're as close to stock as possible. As a note, I don't really like the GS intake tubes, but I don't think they're causing your problem. I think a new air filter and properly synched throttle bodies may fix it up completely.

[dirtrider]

Moring Jim

 

The US models never had a CO pot. I don't see any reason to install one. I prefer to run with no CCP. That richens up the mixture a little bit and makes the bike run better imo.--But he has an o2 sensor. BMW 1100's that came with an o2 sensor didn't come from factory with a Co pot. So if it has a factory o2 sensor then someone added that Co trim pot. With certain CCPs' it will ignore the Co trim pot & with no CCP or certain CCP's it will ignore the o2 sensor.

 

Bottom line here--that bike didn't come from the factory with both a Co trim pot & an o2 sensor so one or the other was added by a previous owner.

 

The Co pot is mainly for idle & just above idle Co. emission output (due to lack of a catalytic converter). Once past 1/8-1/4 throttle the Co pot does nothing to the fueling mixture.

[dirtrider]

 

Do you have any ohm number for CO pot? I saw some site has 1000, 800, 200.

 

Morning dukesean

 

The Co pot (Idle Regulating Valve) is adjustable as it is used to get a NON o2 sensor & non catalytic converter equipped bike to meet idle Co. emissions.-- (in countries that didn't require a cat converter but still had idle Co. emission testing the Co pot was required to allow it to be adjusted to lean out the idle fueling to meet that countries idle Co. emission requirements).

 

The Co. pot isn't set or adjusted by resistance, or isn't just a specific resistance it is used to adjust the idle Co. output (usually to around 1.5% to 0.5%)

 

If your 1100 bike has an o2 sensor then it probably also has a catalytic converter. (the o2 sensor is needed to make the cat work correctly)

 

SO, if your bike has an o2 sensor & cat then ARE YOU SURE that it had an (Idle Regulating Valve) idle trim pot?????

 

O2 & cat equipped bikes that came with an evap. can (carbon filled canister) on the right rear had an evap valve on the L/H side about mid bike that looks a lot like a Co pot but has no adjustment screw on it.

 

Does your bike have an o2 sensor & a catalytic converter?

 

If it has an o2 sensor & a catalytic converter then it should NOT have been built with a Co pot (so is your Co pot a real Co pot (has adjustment screw) or is it just an evap valve (has 2 hoses running to it) or at least 2 fittings for hoses?

 

See picture for Co. pot (Idle Regulating Valve)

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by dirtrider

[Jim Moore]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was shopping for a CO pot to replace the one he thought had been removed.

[dirtrider]

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was shopping for a CO pot to replace the one he thought had been removed.

 

Morning Jim

 

Yes, I think we are seeing (reading) this differently (I read it as the Co trim pot has been removed--therefore it was on the bike at one time).

 

Back in the 1100 era a lot of 1100RT Cat bike riders removed the CCP then installed an idle trim pot to lean the no-CCP idle a little to keep the exhaust gas from smelling terrible & burring their eyes at idle.

 

My gut feeling is that he is confusing the Co. pot with the Cat bike evap system (purge) valve as they are located in about the same place on the bike.

 

[dukesean]

Morning gentlemen,

 

Sorry, let me tell the story again. And will try to search correct oilhead terminology words first. That's a lot to learn compare to Japanese bikes.

 

I got the bike with a box with removed, or maybe PO purchased, parts that has 2 CCP beige and yellow, 2 RT air tubes, charcoal canister, CO pot, air tubes that behind oil cooler, and a set of carbon fiber air inlet tubes.

 

I test rode without touching any parts on the box. So it has pink CCP only at the time. After experienced with cold start problem, that's when I start to dig into the box, and switch parts, and yes it's CO pot that can be adjusted. I even turned it a bit to see how it works.

 

I'm out of town now. Hopefully will check the bike fully this weekend.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Edit, and the purge valve still hang in its location with connector plugged, just no tube connected.

Edited June 28, 2017 by dukesean

[dirtrider]

Morning gentlemen,

 

Sorry, let me tell the story again. And will try to search correct oilhead terminology words first. That's a lot to learn compare to Japanese bikes.

 

I got the bike with a box with removed, or maybe PO purchased, parts that has 2 CCP beige and yellow, 2 RT air tubes, charcoal canister, CO pot, air tubes that behind oil cooler, and a set of carbon fiber air inlet tubes.

 

I test rode without touching any parts on the box. So it has pink CCP only at the time. After experienced with cold start problem, that's when I start to dig into the box, and switch parts, and yes it's CO pot that can be adjusted. I even turned it a bit to see how it works

 

Afternoon dukesean

 

It sounds like you have an 1100RT bike with an o2 sensor & a catalytic converter,(correct?)

 

The richest it will get at starting & hot idle will be with NO CCP in the fuse box & NO Idle Trim Pot (idle control valve).

 

That will leave the hot engine idle a bit rich & the exhaust smelly.

 

You can install the Idle Trim Pot then try tuning that to lean the idle a little but that REQUIRES THE CCP to be removed (the Idle Trim Pot won't work with the pink, beige, or yellow CCP installed.

 

I you don't know where your Idle Trim Pot is now set -- just lightly turn the screw all the way in then count the turns to all the way out (then set it to half way as a starting point)

 

It will probably run best & idle the highest with no Idle Trim Pot installed & no CCP installed.

 

Just keep in mind the Idle Trim Pot only controls idle & just above idle (once the throttle is opened up a ways it makes no difference to the fueling). The Idle Trim Pot's main function was to get the bike to pass idle Co. emissions in non catalytic converter required countries.

 

 

 

 

 

[dukesean]

Morning gentlemen,

 

Some updates here. BTW bike has original exhaust with catalytic converter and O2 sensor connected.

 

I tried dirtrider's suggested, pulled CCP and plugged in CO pot.

Idle became unstable (was 1200 before ) and will died after several rpm dived down to 700. I tried to turn the screw inside CO pot without any improvement. So I pulled CO pot out and put beige CCP back in. And it idles better.

I thought maybe the fuel system still not been completed clean.

So I clean TB, BBS, and all passages again. Put in Techron with full tank of 91 gasoline, and join my buddies for a 350miles ride on Saturday.

I can feel bike became more alive during the trip, and idle went up to 1400 rpm at the end of the day. And I got 44 mpg. Not bad for half highway and half back roads I think.

 

Sunday, thanks to Jim's advice. I did the throttle cables adjustments, and choke lever works wonderful now.

TBS redone for both idle and 3500rpm.

Idle set at 1100 rpm this time with beige CCP.

 

I tried CO pot again without CCP.

It finally settles at around 1050 rpm, but still unstable compared to CCP/no CO pot setup.

But at least it will not died this time.

And it will idles 1200 rpm very smooth without either CCP or CO pot.

 

So, my question is : what caused this behavior with CO pot.

Maybe I should just happy with CCP/no CO pot setup.

Or maybe just wait for oem paper air filter arrived to see what would happened.

 

Thanks for all the helps.

Happy July 4th!!!

[dirtrider]

Afternoon dukesean

 

Did you remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes after installing or removing the Co pot, then reinstall it-- That re-sets the Motronic adaptives.

 

Same with changing CCP's-- not as important but can make a little difference until you ride the bike for a long ways.

 

When you put the Co pot on & remove the CCP try turning the screw almost all the way in then ride the bike.

 

If you are happy with the idle then, back the screw out another 2 turns & ride the bike for awhile.

 

When you back the screw out far enough get to the point of not liking it again then just turn the screw back in a turn or two.

 

OR, just leave the Co pot off the bike as it is mainly for idle emission (Co) control in non cat. countries.

[dukesean]

Thanks. D.R.

Yes, fuse #5 removed every time when changing.

Will try those when air filter arrives.

And I am out of town again.

Hopefully will come back to update it soon.

[Jim Moore]

Try no CO Pot and no CCP. That's my preferred setup.

[dukesean]

So you sync TB base on no CCP and no CO pot? Thanks

[Jim Moore]

Yes. Unplug the CO Pot and throw the CCPs into a lake. Your bike will thank you.

[avu3]

IF your problems return, I would re-wire the HES. I know it doesn't make sense, since messing with the CCP/CO Pot seems to change it - but I had a similar experience working with the O2 and an AF-XiED. I'd change something - it would seem to be fixed and fine, sometimes for hundreds of miles - then come back.

 

The HES wiring LOOKED fine, till I handled it on the bench, then it turned to confetti.

 

10 years is a long time on stock HES wiring - or 21 if its really original.

[dukesean]

I see. Thanks, will try to test all the differences.