Subject: R1150RT died suddenly. Ideas?

[Bill Dennes]

My bike died after having been started from cold and ridden about a mile:

 

• ZE87343, build date 9/01, approx 68k miles.
  
• Died without a warning or clue, as if switched off.
  
• While I was riding away from a traffic light, just after shifting into second(?).
  
• Would not start, even with a battery jump. The starter would get kicked out and spin "unengaged" as if the engine had tried to fire just hard enough to spin the starter gear away from the flywheel. I could not hold the starter button down and keep the bike cranking.
  
• Would not bump start rolling down the short hill that was available. Never even coughed.
  
• I disconnected my external fuel filter and verified that the fuel pump works.
  
• Fuses all seem good.
  
• I tried Mitch Patrie's 8/30/05 Hall Effect Sensor (HES) test, where I turn the engine by hand and listen for the fuel pump to run at TDC and BDC. The fuel pump runs as hoped for. Excellent field test, Mitch!
  
• I pulled the right side injector off before doing the HES test. It squirted a VERY small cloud of fuel vapor at the expected time. I dunno how much to expect it to squirt.
  
• It makes spark. Didn't test at same time as HES, no idea about timing.
  
• The RID works as expected.
  
• It had been acting rich, making soot on the back of the muffler and running better at low revs when cold than when warm. BUT the near-new plugs do not look sooty, not even brown. Too white, if anything.
  
• It had been fussy to start when cold, which I had blamed on the Panasonic battery that I installed to save a few bucks. The symptom was the starter disengaging, but I've learned that this happens with a battery jump, too.
  

I've been dreading the time I would need a real BMW motorcycle shop ever since Marty's closed. I sure hope that this is not the time I have to go find one.

 

Help!

[JeffeVerde]

Can't help with a diagnosis -- but if you've got to take it to a shop, I recently stumbled across a site for "Mitch's Motorcycles" in Torrance. Mitch is a former "Marty's" mechanic, and his shop is just down the street from the former "Marty's" location. Here's the URL - Mitch's Motorcycles

 

I recently moved to the south bay from Orange County, where I've used Irv Seaver BMW for years, and I've always been happy with their work.

[No_Twilight]

Ok. the first thing that comes to mind is a bad clutch switch or kill switch. but you say it has spark and my RS won't even turn over with either one of those so lets rule those out.

 

That said, ever since my HES died I've always said that if you've got a bike with gas, spark, and compression and it still won't run, it's gotta be the HES. I'm afraid the field test of the HES as you've described it isn't adequate to test the HES. The problem is that there are two sensors in there and if one dies, you'll still get a signal to the motronic to run the fuel pump, spark, and squirt but it will only be sparking and squirting half as much as it should and one cylinder will be getting spark only on the exhaust stroke. It won't run on one cylinder but it might kick the starter out occasionally as you describe.

 

I read your post 2 hours ago, rode to work, read it again and thought about it a while. I am reluctant to call everything I can't figure out an HES failure but I've about convinced myself that your symptoms fit the bill.

 

Good luck,

Jerry

[No_Twilight]

Oops. On my third read I realize you're getting an HES signal to the fuel pump twice per revolution (I assume you have a wrench on the crankshaft end nut?). If that's the case, then I'm again reluctant to call it an HES failure. --Jerry

[Bill Dennes]

Yep. Had a wrench on the crank end bolt.

[Steve W.]

You said you had "spark". How did the spark "sound"? It should have a nice clean pop and a blue color. What I am getting at, you could have a bad coil. I've seen coils go bad and still show a spark with the plug out of the engine, but not run. I had a lawn mower do this one time, spark looked good and it would "almost" start, replaced the coil and it fired right up. The twins only have 1 coil for both cylinders. You can check the coil with an ohm meter. I don't know the readings you should see, but you can search the site for those values.

Good hunting and please let us know what you find.

Best

Steve

[SWB]

Would not start, even with a battery jump. The starter would get kicked out and spin "unengaged" as if the engine had tried to fire just hard enough to spin the starter gear away from the flywheel. I could not hold the starter button down and keep the bike cranking.

 

I'm a noob BMW "mechanic", but that never stops me from "contributing" here as if I know something about the subject. You indicate that the starter doesn't seem to be engaging the flywheel? Maybe the starter or flywheel has a damaged gear, i.e. a tooth or two missing. I know that this doesn't explain why your bike would die going into second gear, other than perhaps the flywheel was damaaged so badly that it briefly "locked up".

 

If you don't know the underlying cause, then all you can do is treat the symtoms, working backwards to the ultimate cause. If the starter isn't engaging the flywheel, I'd take a look at the starter and flywheel gears.

 

Other than that, I'd just start down the normal fuel/air/spark diagnostic. Check the ignition coil and plug wire resistance (i.e. "spark" doesn't necessarily mean usable spark). It's not completely "dead", so your clutch and neutral switches (a common failure point) are not suspect. Check all the basics, i.e. cylinder compression.

 

Good luck.

[smiller]

Died without a warning or clue, as if switched off.

 

Definitely says ignition, or at least something electrical to me. You have fuel pressure (I assume you checked at the output of the fuel filter) and if it was only an injector problem the engine may run very poorly or stall but it should run. Since the fuel pump runs and the RID works then it isn't the sidestand or kill switch.

 

Not too much left then... coil, HES, or ECU. Hearing the results of your tests so far (and the trouble with cold starts) I would suspect in that order. Have you checked the coil primary and secondary resistance?

[chasgrips45]

You`ve got fuel,the fuel pump is humming in the tank,& the engine just quit. Same thing with me on my 96rs . It just quit ,fired up sporadically ,& I could hear what sounded like a short coming from the coils . Changed the Halls ,fired up & ran fine. If it`s not the Motronic or coils ,there`s really not much else that can go wrong with the ignition system. I`ve seen these damn HES do some pretty funky things. IMHO. Chas.

[No_Twilight]

Died without a warning or clue, as if switched off.

 

Definitely says ignition, or at least something electrical to me. You have fuel pressure (I assume you checked at the output of the fuel filter) and if it was only an injector problem the engine may run very poorly or stall but it should run. Since the fuel pump runs and the RID works then it isn't the sidestand or kill switch.

 

Not too much left then... coil, HES, or ECU. Hearing the results of your tests so far (and the trouble with cold starts) I would suspect in that order. Have you checked the coil primary and secondary resistance?

 

I have a spare ECU for an R1100. If it will work in an 1150 you're welcome to borrow it and swap it out to see if that fixes your problem. --Jerry

[powerman]

re: "I could not hold the starter button down and keep the bike cranking"

You should be able to hold the button and keep it cranking. Have you check the battery voltage while cranking? It shouldn't go much below 10 volts, maybe you have a couple of shorted cells? check the voltage from pos to neg and pos to frame, and also the starter pos to frame all while cranking. lower voltage could have the effect of lower spark and less fuel pressure. check all electrical connections, including ecu ground.

[No_Twilight]

re: "I could not hold the starter button down and keep the bike cranking"

You should be able to hold the button and keep it cranking. Have you check the battery voltage while cranking? It shouldn't go much below 10 volts, maybe you have a couple of shorted cells? check the voltage from pos to neg and pos to frame, and also the starter pos to frame all while cranking. lower voltage could have the effect of lower spark and less fuel pressure. check all electrical connections, including ecu ground.

 

That thought crossed my mind but you've stated it better than I could have. So the cause of the non-start would be that the starter pulls down the voltage so low that the motronic/coil can't make a spark. The only problem with this is that it shouldn't cause the initial symptom of "just died like the key was turned off". But often these difficult problems are difficult because there are really two problems confusing the issue.

 

--Jerry

[powerman]

really two problems confusing the issue

I was thinking of that as well and it very well could be two issues but i was tring to figure a single root cuase. What keeps poping in my head is a loose connection in the battery circuit wiring. say what if the neg lead came disconnected momentariliy shutting the bike down. The pos and neg battery connections on the battery are easy enough to check. The hardest is the neg battery cable to the frame ground,hence my recomendation to check the voltage drop pos to neg and pos to frame ground to see if any diffrence. I think the neg cable to ground is under the battery tray and hard to check. Who ever though of putting it there was nuts. i almost relocated it to one of the starter mounting bolts when i did my spline lube last year.

I'd also give all the major connectors a good going over, give them a disconnect and reconnect. While checking the coil connector i would check the coil resistances.

[Bill Dennes]

Yep, voltage. Darn!

 

I temporarily installed my stock coil to see if my twin-spark coil was bad. Had to jump it from the wife's car and noticed that jumping wasn't helping at all. I moved the cable from the "battery jump point extender" to the positive side of the battery, which was exposed. By golly, she cranked just fine and started right up!

 

So I reconnected the twin-spark coil, jumped the battery again and it started again! Yay!

 

I put it on a trickle charger overnight. The indicated voltage was 15 when I unhooked the charger. Not impressed by the Panasonic battery. The voltage settled to 13.6 and the charge was fresh enough to let the bike start.

 

The moral: Do not install a Panasonic battery and then try to jump it using the parts from an '04 that extend the positive post of the battery out from under the tank. I seem to have gotten no connection between the positive cable and the battery post extender. Finish on the extender too hard? Spring on the clamp too weak? I dunno.

 

I do know that the jump attempt before the flatbed ride was a failure, as was the attempt made at home. So now I have to carry vise grips to squash the clamp onto the post?

 

Naw, I think I'll order a WestCo battery.

 

BTW - is there a trick BMW jumper cable that connects to the battery jump post in a way that works? The hard finish of the jump post and the grip of the average jumper cable appear to be not good enough to get a connection.

[smiller]

Naw, I think I'll order a WestCo battery.

I'm not sure that there's that much difference between the Panasonic and Westco batteries in that they're both gell cells... I would suggest going with either the Odyssey (AGM) or BMW (wet cell) units for best performance.

[powerman]

re "Naw, I think I'll order a WestCo battery" I beleive the westco is a relabeled panasonic battery, some post on this board some where on that. go with the odesey.

as far has jumber cables, i used a nail on the pos end of the jumper cable jaws to jump mine once. you can use the screw driver in the tool kit.

 

Bill was the connection loose at the battery? still wondering about your original problem.

 

also did I mention go with the odesey.

[No_Twilight]

Bill,

VERY glad you got it going again. Any guy who sells his car and only rides his bikes deserves the boards full support.

 

I also vote for the odyssey. On another discussion board I've seen a very good description of the advantages of the odyssey design but I don't have it handy.

 

If you need an adapter I'll be glad to make you one like mine. Let me know if you need me to post the photos again.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[Rt4Me]

odyssey battery is the way to go. I went to ebay and picked up a brand new one for 62.00 and 12.00 shipping to my house.For 74.00 bucks it's a great value and mine has given me no problems.

 

Good Luck.

[bmwmick]

The moral: Do not install a Panasonic battery and then try to jump it using the parts from an '04 that extend the positive post of the battery out from under the tank. I seem to have gotten no connection between the positive cable and the battery post extender. Finish on the extender too hard? Spring on the clamp too weak? I dunno.

 

I do know that the jump attempt before the flatbed ride was a failure, as was the attempt made at home. So now I have to carry vise grips to squash the clamp onto the post?

 

Naw, I think I'll order a WestCo battery.

 

BTW - is there a trick BMW jumper cable that connects to the battery jump post in a way that works? The hard finish of the jump post and the grip of the average jumper cable appear to be not good enough to get a connection.

 

Bill,

You have some bad connections there somewhere. I've jumped several Oilheads with the add-on + extender and never had a problem.

The WestCo will do nothing but separate you from more money. [bold]How old is the Panasonic?[/bold] WestCo relabels the Panasonic and a Chinese BB battery with their label.

My Panasonics last at least 4 years with no problems. Maybe you got a bad one? Maybe your poor connection is not letting the battery charge or discharge correctly?

 

Mick