Splines Cost to repair

[sbristol]

Hi, I am one of the unlucky few with bad splines. 2002 R1150RT 25,000 Miles. The only symptom was hard downshifting for about 10 down shifts then no power to the rear wheel.

 

Unfortunately, My warranty is up so I have to eat it. The Dealer is telling that it will be cheaper to just get a new transmission. He is estimating a price of $3500. (2500 for the transmission and 1000 labor) I find it hard to believe that if all it needs is a drive shaft and an input shaft, that replacing these would cost more than $2500.

 

For those of you who have had the work done. What needed to be replaced once and what was the cost?

 

Thanks

[Paul Mihalka]

I work at a BMW dealer. My R1150R's clutch spline gave up last September with 30,000 miles on the bike. The repair bill with a new gearbox was $3,300.- before some employee discount help. With that defect at so low miles it is likely that it is not wear and tear, but a alignment problem somewhere in the drivetrain, probably the gearbox housing. That is why a new gearbox is suggested. Talk to your dealer and see if you can get from BMW some "Good Will" warranty help. It does not hurt to call BMW Customer Relations.

[smiller]

I would first follow Paul's advice and work with your dealer or BMW to see if you can get some goodwill assistance. This problem is common enough that you have a good chance of getting some help I would think.

 

Failing that and depending on your mechanical skills you can cut that bill in half by ordering a BMW remanufactured transmission and doing the work yourself. The job isn't trivial but it isn't all that difficult either and there are many walk-thoughs available (and even a DVD I believe.)

[SWB]

BMW Customer Relations.

 

Don't waste your time with the routine, polite service desk people.

 

First: Ask to speak with the customer service MANAGER, and reference this forum, discussions members (namely, myself) had with him regarding the early spline failure issue, and the misalignments that have been diagnosed on BMW RT motors with failed splines.

 

Second: If BMW doesn't help out then, print out the couple of threads over the past two months that discussed the issue (search "spline" for member name mbohn). Either make a tool or use a dial indicator to evaluate the spline/case alignment, or give the information to a competent serviceman to do it for you. You will find that your transmission has a manufacturing problem, as will BMW should they desire to check this out.

 

Third: Inform both the dealer service manager and BMW Motorrad USA Customer Service manager what you intend to do, and that you intend to hold BMW responsible for both the repairs and the cost of diagnosis in small claims court, if your suspicion turns out to be correct.

 

I suspect that you won't have to get past the first step, but if you have to implement the third step, you'll be awarded the maximum settlement under your state's law.

 

With what I've seen thus far, there's no way that I'll "eat" the cost of transmission repair due to spline failure. It's certainly caused by a manufacturing defect.

[John in VA]

Spline failure at on a touring bike at 25k is ridiculous, even if you'd been running daily hillclimbing events -- which of course you haven't. I'd put lots of pressure on BMW for 100% replacement with a new transmission/case. If all else fails I'd get an attorney.

[DEF]

Spline failure at on a touring bike at 25k is ridiculous, even if you'd been running daily hillclimbing events -- which of course you haven't. I'd put lots of pressure on BMW for 100% replacement with a new transmission/case. If all else fails I'd get an attorney.

 

 

John is right.....spline failure at your mileage IS a warrantable situation unless BMW can find some evidence that you have caused the failure.....likely not, especially if your bike has a history of maintenance.

 

I had a rear drive replaced due to paint crazing...they did not question the replacement. If you are out of warranty you will likely need a bit more compelling argument to get them to cover the repair but, you are among others who have reported driveline problems, hence BMW is aware of similar failures. With support from a dealer, you should not have a problem getting this covered. Please keep us informed and document all your contacts with the dealer, BMW and others involved in this case...it could help support your claim and get quicker restitution....BMW does not like negative press.

 

Finally, I routinely perform spline lube maintenance on my '01 GS. I have had the rear drive off three times in 30,000 miles to clean, inspect and grease the splines. If you undertake to perform this work, remember to use a moly-fortified grease (60-70% moly in a NLGI 2 lithium soaped EP grease). But, your failure is likely not due to grease or lack thereof (unless BMW failed to apply lube during assembly of your bike which will be evident during disassembly). As mentioned by a previous poster, the failure has likely been brought about by misalignment of the transmission to the engine. Alignment pins are required to be used during fitment of the gearbox to the engine. This may have been carried out incorrectly.

[Silvereagle]

Scott--- I have an 02 RT also. While cruising at 65 I lost power to the rear wheel. No prior indication of a problem. 35,8XX on the odometer. I had it towed to a BMW dealer for repair. That was 4 Nov 05. The repair was completed 25 Feb 06. The tab to replace the clutch and transmission input shaft was $1108 plus tax. No warranty.

 

John

[sbristol]

Hi Jon,

 

That is about what I was thinking. How many miles do you have on the new shaft? Are you concerned that if you have a misalignment that it will happen again?

 

After talking with some people I have discovered that bill should be about $3000 for a new Trans installed. And the dealer confirmed that this price is about right and they just pad the estimate $500 so that there is no surprises.

 

Since I now plan on keeping the bike I think that I will go the route of replacing the whole transmission since the casing misalignment is most likely the culprit.

 

The Dealer is going to talk with BMW on Tuesday to see if we can get any "good will" help, but I am not holding my breath. I have not seen anyone get help with this issue once warrantee is up. I am still annoyed about the problem, but am just going put it past me and move on. If I do get some help from BMW great but if not, I will just move on and continue to enjoy my bike.

[Guest]

I've read so many posts that suggest the spline problem is alignment related. As a practicing engineer, I have a hard time believing that alignment is the problem. If the issue was the input shaft bearing or driveline noise from the pilot area I could buy into the alignment theory. I bet the spline issue is related to material issues (tempering, platings, composition) and/or lubrication issues (insufficient quantity or quality).

 

I have not studied this as much as some of you. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my brain around alignment as a cause of spline wear.

 

FWIW, replacing an input shaft is not hard and there are plenty of shops that can do it. It sounds like your dealer doesn't want to do the work and would rather just swap trannies. At 25K, I would definately call BMWNA.

[Marty Hill]

Scott,

 

Quite a few have had wty work done after it expired. Call BMW and talk to someone past the one who answers the phone.

[Silvereagle]

Scott,

 

I have only put about 400 miles on the RT since the repair. And yes, if the failure was accelerated by a missalignment, my guess is that it will occur again at some point.

 

John

 

PS...My '06 FJR1300AE arrives in June

[nrp]

RLK -

 

I too am a (retired) mechanical engineer and have been following and trying to contribute to this issue for the last several months.

 

I feel this is almost certainly an alignment issue and not a materials issue, as others have demonstrated poor alignment between the engine crankshaft and the transmission input bearing housing using crude measurement technics. Some have also noted that the clutch disc (which has no pilot bearing) is being dragged around on the flywheel face, and some others have found that the necessary alignment pins have been omitted on factory assembly. In addition, the spline problem frequently reoccurs on the same bike unless one or more major housing parts are replaced.

 

I am not yet ready to say however that the alignment problem is related to the transmission housing - as it could also be that the engine crankcase has the error.

[BucksTherapy]

RLK -

 

I feel this is almost certainly an alignment issue and not a materials issue,

 

It seems to me it could be alignment and materials in some combination. I am only an electrical engineer so you will have to consider the source.

 

I have gone through a failure and have a number of reasons for this conclusion:

1) The measurements taken by others indicate an alignment issue.

2) The wear pattern indicates uneven pressure over the length of each vein.

3)The clutch should fail first if it is softer then the shaft as it should be if the materials were right.

4)Lubrication seems to have made little difference in my failure as there was lots of lube indicating the pressures were greater then anticipated in the design process. Doesn't this suggest alignment?

 

I would like to hear from a few of the mechanical engineers given these observations. Could it be both factors contributing to these failures? What is more likely?

 

If I were to send my old input shaft and clutch to one of you could you say with any certainty what caused the wear patern?

[nrp]

No, I can't really tell if the parent material is so short of its likely specs that the spline is failing in what should be say 20% of its normal life. But a measurement as described in my posting referenced below would make it obvious to anyone nontechnical (including a judge etc) if there was an alignment problem due to manufacturing errors. The problem is that this runout measuring scheme can only be done with a disassembled transmission. It requires a simple $20 measuring indicator & a home built fixture. I wish I could hear from someone that tried this out.

 

Could this also be why they are offering to replace the whole transmission assembly - just so no one makes this runout measurement? Go to:

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post636421

[2wheelterry]

I don’t have anything substantial to contribute, but to continue the discussion, here’s some thoughts.

 

Niel:

 

I’ve read the posts and seen the photos. Based on the photos, I along with most would agree that alignment is suspect. It’s got to be one end or the other, or a combination of the two (potentially a stacking of tolerances in the undesirable direction). As you have suggested, determining run-out is key. If the run-out is made to be small, (a couple thousands ?), the loading should go back to the design values.

 

Don’t you think that the clutch disk should be a softer material than the input splines? It seems to me that it should be, so that the disk fails first in an overloaded condition.

 

Bob:

 

I’m an ME. For the failures that are not obvious, I always look for a combination of failure modes. When I have a failure that I want to be sure of the cause, I use a metallurgist with access to a scanning electron microscope. They cut a section from the failed part (in this case the splines), prepare it, view it in the microscope and evaluate the microstructure. In this case I would expect they can determine if the part failed from insufficient lubrication, to much loading, etc. They nearly always are able to confirm my suspicions or give me some new information. Secondly a hardness test of both parts would be in order. Unfortunately, this costs…

 

It has been suggested elsewhere in these discussions to drag a file across the splines and disk to estimate if one is clearly softer than the other. It’s a good suggestion. Try it and let us know what you find.

[sbristol]

Does any know the phone number for BMW Motorrad USA Customer Service?

 

thanks

[nrp]

I don't think the failures are caused by single-event overloads. Rather there seems to be a lot of fretting type debris that looks almost like corrosion. This suggests a lubrication failure, which in the case of dry splines with only assembled lubrication, becoming a fretting failure.

 

Another indicator others have noted is the damage to the clutch disk and,flywheel, and pressure plate. I suspect the disc is being force to spin on a different center than the flywheel-pressure plate. The result is overheating and eventual failure of the clutch surfaces hemselves.

 

It could be argued that the internal spline wouldn't have to be as hard as the shaft, but from a manufacturing standpoint, why not make them both hard?

 

I agree that a file test could determine hardness (especially of the shaft) quite effectively. Actually to get a Rockwell hardness check would be simple too - except to get into some place that has the capability is something else. That's the biggest thing I miss now that I'm retired from an outfit that had a lot of capability - but I still have my "connections"......

[Brett Cook]

I've also had the spline alignment problem. That's not to say that alignment is the only issue here. Your cause may be something different.

The last time I had this repaired, the bill was $1200. It was diagnosed as a spline-lube problem at that time. BMW donated the parts, so my part of it was $600.

This time, I knew it couldn't be lack of lube.

When the mechanic checked he noticed that the bearing and shaft seal in the tranny cover were not concentric. This caused the input shaft to meet the clutch splines at an angle, which appear to have chewed off the clutch splines.

[Guest]

When the mechanic checked he noticed that the bearing and shaft seal in the tranny cover were not concentric. This caused the input shaft to meet the clutch splines at an angle, which appear to have chewed off the clutch splines.

 

Wow. I'm amazed the seal didn't leak. Getrag makes the gearbox, maybe asking them for info would be helpful.

[sbristol]

I got the National Customer service department on the phone and they will be Calling my dealer tomorrow (dealer is closed today).

 

He was polite but did not offer up any information as to they number of cases that they have seen.

 

I will let you know how it all turns out.

[nrp]

An elastomeric rotating seal can handle a lot of static misalignment without leaking - like maybe .030 inch or even more. It would be another thing though if the shaft is whirling around inside the seal, in which case only a few thou of whirl would make it leak.

 

This is the first posting that has talked about an angular (in contrast to a radial runout) misalignment causing spline problems. Did I interpret it correctly?

[eaglemike]

I have a rockwell type hardness tester in my shop. I also frequently run stuff to the heat treat house where they have a wide variety of hardness testing equipment. Please let me know if I can be of help.

 

While I own a R12RT, I'm very interested in this. I don't think it's been established that BMW has fixed this issue for sure, certain, and forever........

 

I think it could be a combination of things: eccentricity of parts, axial mis-alignment, poor lubrication, and perhaps even inadequate material spec's and heat treating. I've seen a pretty amazing set of manufacturing errors over the years.........

 

all the best,

 

Mike

[Guest]

An elastomeric rotating seal can handle a lot of static misalignment without leaking - like maybe .030 inch or even more. It would be another thing though if the shaft is whirling around inside the seal, in which case only a few thou of whirl would make it leak.

 

The seal thickness is only 200 mils or so. I'd be surprised if it could handle 30 mils of offset. If there is an offset, then Getrag would have had to machine those shoulders in two different setups. All I can say is Wow.

 

How has this misalignment been measured? You just can't look at the casting boss relative to the machined bore. Are there any signs of whirl where the clutch rod contacts the spring diaphram?

[nrp]

(How has this misalignment been measured?)

 

Mark Bohn (who had experienced multiple failures) machined a precision extension to his crankshaft, mounted it onto the flywheel bolts, and extended it into the transmission housing input bearing bore. He then measured the clearance to the bearing bore in four directions with a telescoping gage. He was able to conclude that the transmission input bearing housing didn't match up with the crankshaft extension. His procedure was documented about 2 months ago. He may have done it this way because of the tools he had available.

 

Mark also mounted a larger dial indicator on the crankcase reading the outside diameter of the clutch disk spline housing while rotated the crank. From that he concluded the clutch was not running concentric to the crank axis. He posted a video of that test. I'm not sure that technique is valid as the clutch disk has no pilot to the crankshaft, and runout to that particular flange diamter may not be of consequence.

 

However, he found that some (or all?) of the alignment dowel pins between the engine and the transmission had been left out at the last dealer's disassembly. He ended up bushing the dowel pin holes in the transmission housing and reboring them correctly to reduce his runout.

 

I contend that it would be much more accurate and easier to just measure the runout with a small crank-extension-mounted dial indicator ($20), and just rotate the crankshaft rather than make a precision metal extension. The extension to mount the indicator can be made of wood & temporarily epoxied to the crank end.

[nrp]

On reflection, it is possible that all or at least much of this misalignment problem has been caused by mechanics installing a new clutch disk without using a disk centering tool on assembly. Since there is no pilot bearing in the design, the clutch disk by itself won't center as the clutch assembly is mounted onto the flywheel.

 

If no centering tool is used, it requires the clutch to be disengaged (which requires the transmission to be mounted) to center properly. The mechanic can maybe still force the transmission against the engine & draw the bolts up, but we have to recognize that the clutch disk radial friction is going to be like 1000 pounds or more (my WAG) to slide it on the flywheel. the result might be that the dowel pins are removed (?) or that there is so much stress on everything at bolt-up that it never does line up properly.

 

In other words, a bad assembly technique could also maybe cause misalignment problems.

[smiller]

The clutch disk floats between the pressure plates so a small radial misalignment shouldn't stress the input shaft. It is axial misalignment that seems to cause the problem.

 

[nrp]

But when the clutch is assembled onto the flywheel before the transmission & throwout shaft etc are mated, doesn't the disk lock onto the flywheel as the pressure-plate-to-flywheel bolts are drawn up? That's the purpose of the disk alignment tools, to facilitate further assembly.

[eaglemike]

Starrett has a universal test indicator. It's a very neat tool. Especially useful for checking runout. Since it's Starrett, it ain't cheap..............The indicator has a plunger on the back, a couple of different ways to mount it, and extensions that can reach into a bore.

 

all the best,

 

Mike

[smiller]

But when the clutch is assembled onto the flywheel before the transmission & throwout shaft etc are mated, doesn't the disk lock onto the flywheel as the pressure-plate-to-flywheel bolts are drawn up?

No, it's not like a car. The friction disk (the only item riding on the input shaft) floats between two pressure plates that clamp together against the clutch plate. The presure plates are connected to the flywheel and the clutch transmits power to the input shaft and thus the clutch plate is pretty much located only by the input shaft. Hence if the input shaft is isn't exactly concentric to the pressure plates it doesn't matter much, at least with respect to stress on the input shaft. I guess if it were out enough it might result in some additional clutch wear, but as far as I can tell the main function of an alignment tool on the oilheads is just to make it a little easier to get the transmission to mate up with the clutch assembly during assembly.

 

Axial misalignment, on the other hand, would matter since the clutch disk can't adjust in that direction so something's got to give, or wear. If that happens I agree that things should be designed so that the clutch disk suffers first and sacrifices itself to save the input shaft, but unfortunately that's not how it seems to work... instead the female clutch plate splines eat away at the input shaft, destroying both in the process.

[Guest]

But when the clutch is assembled onto the flywheel before the transmission & throwout shaft etc are mated, doesn't the disk lock onto the flywheel as the pressure-plate-to-flywheel bolts are drawn up? That's the purpose of the disk alignment tools, to facilitate further assembly.

 

That's exactly right. If the throwout bearing was up front, you could actuate the clutch to help with final alignment (assuming you had a pilot bushing/bearing to align with). Unfortunately, that trick doesn't work on the BMW.

 

Maybe some of the issue comes from stabbing the tranny in the first place. If you had perfect alignment of the clutch disc and one hand free to spin the transmission for spline alignment, then hit the dowels perfectly you would keep most of your lubricant in the splines where you need it. If you don't have all these things perfect (real world) multiple stabs could wipe most of the lubricant away. Add to this machining variations and some bikes could be a real bear to get a tranny put back. Maybe this is why the dowel pins were pulled out of your friends bike?

[nrp]

I agree, $tarrett ain't cheap - but Harbor Freight has a similar if not identical one for $20 that will do this job very well.

 

I also doubt the $tarrett indicator could be fit into the clearances with the magnetic base that I presume comes with it. Instead I suggest making a special purpose wood crankshaft extension for the HF unit & fasten it with 5 minute epoxy.

 

Perhaps the two indicators themselves are even dimensionally similar. Clever people these Chinese.......

[nrp]

I remember 50 yrs ago in college laying in a mud puddle trying to replace the throwout bearing & transmission on a manual shift '55 Merc Montclair. No way would it go together all the way until I eventually happened to hit on pressing down the clutch pedal - and home she went.

 

That car had a pilot bearing. The BMW Oilheads don't, so they can be forced together and tightened down with the clutch disk and transmission axis off crank center for whatever reason. It's when things start to rotate that things will get hot, as the clutch disk is then being radially dragged across the flywheel surface every revolution.

[eaglemike]

I don't think you're familiar with the type of indicator I'm referring to. It can be found here. mscdirect

 

It's the universal test set that I've found very handy for a number of years in the business. The back plunger type, combined with various accessories, is something many people have never seen. It is not in the Harbor Freight online catalog, to the best of my knowledge. Don't need no magnetic base..............

[nrp]

What would you fasten or mount the indicator to (obviously the flywheel but how)? The swing clearances are pretty tight. I think the bearing housing bore is 52 mm & there is an oil deflection (?) protrusion in the transmission housing that might interfere with some forms of the game.

 

I have never actually seen one apart though. Hope I never do.....!

[eaglemike]

There is a stem that goes into a threaded hole on the indicator body. Custom stems can be fabbed easily. There's several ways to clamp the stems, too. 52mm is a mile of clearance compared to some of the places I've used those. Then there's a couple of ways to put the arms on that push on the indicator plunger. If someone within reasonable driving distance has the bike apart, I'm glad to see what can be done.

Like I said, I have a R12RT - just trying to help.

[nrp]

No I have not seen nor was aware of that Starrett indicator system. It looks like it could fill the bill very well.

 

That's an very nice offer for the guys. Too bad everyone with one of these spline problems seems to always be from a long ways away - even including the fellow from Australia. No one's riding here in MN now either.

 

I really wish we could figure out the real cause of these failures. Somehow I suspect BMW is missing the problem too.

[Guest]

Just as a general note, I had a great mentor early in my career who gave me the best advice I've ever received. He said to me "never trust correlation without causation". Just because something is correlated if you can't show causation then you still have work to do. Pure misalignment (shaft whirl) should wreck havic on the driveline.

 

It was mentioned earlier that the angle of the input shaft relative to the crank shaft is also an area of concern. That could force the spline joint to act like a CV joint. I can easily envision rapid spline wear from this without bearing and/or seal issues.

 

I recently looked at photos of a transmission that was removed for spline lube. The bike had 60k miles and the splines looked new. I have no idea about misalignment or tilt of the transmission/engine interface but clearly some have a problem and some don't.