Splines

[John in NC]

I don't recall anyone who has had spline failure mention any abnormal performance before the failure. Have there been any indications for anyone?

[BigArn]

I think I remember people saying that shifting was difficult.

[Paul Mihalka]

Some times hard down shifting is clutch spline related. Like you want to shift down like you always do and it wont go into the next lower gear. Than with some fiddling with the throttle and clutch it goes. This may be indication of need of clutch spline lube service, not neccessarily a failing spline.

[nrp]

If the spline is ready to strip out, the clutch disk will be unable to slide on the transmission input shaft. One side of the disk will still be dragging on the flywheel, making the shift feel like the clutch hasn't fully released. I suspect that the splines would be worn very badly at that state.

 

At least that's my take on what might happen.

[John in NC]

This weekend I spoke with the head of the service department at my dealer and he confirmed that you will notice serious shifting problems. He also said he has not seen any of these problems. This made me feel much better since reading all the gloom and doom here.

[Marty Hill]

Assume you know that the 97% of us with no problems don't bother to post that. We just keep riding.

[No_Twilight]

This weekend I spoke with the head of the service department at my dealer and he confirmed that you will notice serious shifting problems. He also said he has not seen any of these problems. This made me feel much better since reading all the gloom and doom here.

 

You know how much I respect the average service manager? Yep that's about it.

 

Most shifting can be completed w/o the clutch. About all you really need the clutch for if you match RPMs well is for launching so I don't agree that you'll experience shifting problems. So I wouldn't use that as an indicator. But I agree, it sounds like gloom and doom here because we always discuss the 1% of the bikes that have problems. I never feel that gloom and doom when I'm on my bike. I'm absolutely sure it's one of the 99% w/o problems and will continue to believe this until proven otherwise. It is a much more relaxing way to go thru life. --jerry

[TVdawg]

What Marty said... If you read this DB a lot then you might start to wonder about reliablility. A friend of mine is a certified BMW mechanic and he says spline issues are very rare.

 

BTW, welcome to the board. The temps here in the "Tar Heel State" are looking good for the latter part of the week.

[peterbulgar]

This weekend I spoke with the head of the service department at my dealer and he confirmed that you will notice serious shifting problems. He also said he has not seen any of these problems. This made me feel much better since reading all the gloom and doom here.

Don't know about your dealer, but at mine the two service managers are not mechanics - they write up service orders. How long has your service manager been on the job and is he (or she) a mechanic? For what it's worth I asked a mechanic at my dealership about the spline issue two years ago when I bought my R. He said, "I've seen a couple, well, maybe a few. It's not really an issue."

 

One problem with splines is that it's a complete showstopper if you have a failure. This isn't a big deal if you usually ride within 50 miles of home, and take the occasional 350 mile weekend trip - the bike gets towed to your dealer, and you are down for a couple weeks. For someone who takes a long trip (or trips) every year of many thousands of miles, it is more difficult to be sanguine about a 3% failure rate.

 

What is so frustrating about this issue is the random nature of its occurrence and the difficulty in assessing whether you have a potential problem. It has been years since I've had a puncture on a motorcycle tire (and I'm really tempting the fates by saying this!) but I always carry a puncture repair kit with me on trips, because you never know when you'll have one. I can't carry a clutch plate and input shaft (or a rear end crown bearing) with me.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[Mike]

One problem with splines is that it's a complete showstopper if you have a failure. This isn't a big deal if you usually ride within 50 miles of home, and take the occasional 350 mile weekend trip - the bike gets towed to your dealer, and you are down for a couple weeks. For someone who takes a long trip (or trips) every year of many thousands of miles, it is more difficult to be sanguine about a 3% failure rate.

 

I agree with everything you said, but I'm wondering where you got the figure of a 3% failure rate. Could you explain?

[peterbulgar]

...but I'm wondering where you got the figure of a 3% failure rate. Could you explain?

You are correct to call me on that - I can't explain. In this thread Marty spoke about the 97% who have had no problems (presumabaly of any kind, not just splines), and someone else wrote about the 99% who haven't had a spline problem. As far as I know there is no hard information about how many bikes have had spline problems. The only people who might have such information are at BMW and they aren't talking.

 

From the posts on this and other lists (R1150R forum, ADV Riders, etc.) I suspect that the failure rate for late model (post 2002) Oilhead drivelines (that would include splines and rear end crown bearings) is greater than 1% but probably not as much as 5%. I have no way to verify that suspicion. Keep in mind that on this board alone there has recently been a small rash of failures reported as people's mileage gets into the 20-30K miles range. There will probably be more as the owners of 2003 and 2004 models get into that range.

 

BMW sells about 15,000 bikes a year in the US market. Let's say that half of those are oilheads, or about 8,000. 1% of that is 80 bikes in every model year, 5% is 400. Does that seem reasonable based on the reports on this and other forums? Keep in mind that only a small percentage of BMW owners are members of this or any other online forum. Many owners are casual riders who, if they had a problem, would just let the dealer take care of it and chalk it up to bad luck. And maybe that is the best reaction...

 

I'm really hoping that BMW will step forward and discover that they had a quality control problem with a supplier, and that a small percentage of transmission covers or engine cases were improperly machined. What I suspect is that the few failures that have occurred are the result of an unfortunate combination of tolerances that, combined with the design of the clutch mechanism (no pilot bearing) results in premature failure. A few unlucky souls will get the early spline failure, a few will have the perfect splines at 60K miles (reported with pictures on another post - "My splines at 100,000 km"), and a high percentage of the rest of us will have pretty good alignment that will result in having to replace the input shaft along with the clutch plate at 100K miles when we need a new clutch. Too soon for a major part of the transmission IMHO.

 

Maybe it's time to ask the forum, "Who has replaced the clutch on a high-mileage oilhead, and how many of you have and have not replaced the input shaft at the same time?"

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA (24K miles, shifts fine)

[John in NC]

I probably incorrectly used the title of service manager. The guy I spoke with has been with BMW for the better part of 2 decades. He knows the bikes and I trust him.

[Blue Beemer Dude]

I probably incorrectly used the title of service manager. The guy I spoke with has been with BMW for the better part of 2 decades. He knows the bikes and I trust him.

 

OH MY GOD JOHN! So this whole thread has been based on a faulty premise?

 

Seriously, did you talk to Scott? He's been the lead technician since I've been dealing with the Raleigh dealership (7 years) through both owners. He really pissed me off the first time I met him but he does seem to know his way around motorcycles.

 

Michael

[Mike]

Peter--

 

Thanks for clarifying. I suspect your estimate may be fairly close to being correct. BMW probably knows, but I don't expect them to provide that information anytime soon. Of course, comments on a web forum, while indicative that something's happening, could never give you a statistically accurate picture of the frequency of a problem.

[smiller]

I'm really hoping that BMW will step forward and discover that they had a quality control problem with a supplier

I think it's very likely BMW has already discovered a quality control problem, what they need to do at this point is admit a quality control problem.

[Martyn]

I don't recall anyone who has had spline failure mention any abnormal performance before the failure. Have there been any indications for anyone?

 

Not wishing to contradict anybody who has experienced some symptoms, albeit with the advantage of hindsight BUT, my splines on the RT gave out at 40mph with no warning whatsoever; I had been sat at 80mph or so on the motorway for some 50 miles, but slowed to 40mph to travel through a series of roadworks (very aware of the Gatso camera there to ensure compliance) & suddenly - no drive.

I have been riding BM's since 1976 so I am fairly used to them, & their funny little ways, but this took me totally by surprise. Even with hindsight, no warning that I could discern.

[John in NC]

Yeah it was Scott. He does know the beemer bikes.

[KyleD]

Mine didn't fail outright. I discovered excessive wear on the input shaft (clutch splines were just about gone) when I did a spline lube at 28K miles. I just got my bike back from the dealership today - new input shaft and all rotating clutch parts (under warranty).

 

I thought I might notice a significant difference rolling out of the shop with all new parts vs. what it felt like riding it in. Nope. The clutch engagement felt smoother, probably due to the brand new disc, but little or no difference in shifting.

 

In summary, I don't think I would have noticed a thing prior to failure, because it was pretty bad already, and I had no complaints then. Maybe I just don't have enough feel through my boot soles.

[nrp]

My guess - You probably have to get to the point that the spline is ready to strip out completely before you would see difficult shifting. In other words, the spline will jam to prevent any axial motion just before failure.

[Paul Mihalka]

I have seen several cases where the rider complained about some difficulty in shifting, but on inspection the splines were in good shape and with a clean/lube job everything was fine again.

[powerman]

I have seen several cases where the rider complained about some difficulty in shifting, but on inspection the splines were in good shape and with a clean/lube job everything was fine again.

Thats what i had, started having dificulty with down shifting at 18k miles, took apart and the splines were dry and had slight wear, a little moly paste and what a difference in shifting. I think it depends on how you shift in that you may or may not notice it. I'm a lazy shifter and probably don't make a full positive movement when i shift hence problem. others who stomp on it may never see a problem untill failure.

[nrp]

Interesting. It would seem that lack of a full clutch release would be caused by a sticky spline, and that the worn (drive) side of the spline could cause the greatest jamming potential. It must be some other failure mechanism as certainly the splines would be worn much more on the drive side than on the retard side.

 

I don't doubt your observations. I'm just trying to understand what is happening, and why.

[Ralph]

I think I remember people saying that shifting was difficult.

 

Yep That was it!