Frequent Stalling

[RPG]

New problem on otherwise perfect running, 70k '04 RT.

 

Prepping for my morning ride to work, I start the bike and let it idle with the fast idle lever On. RPM's about 1200 normally but lately, it's dropped to 1000.

 

At some point, the bike will just stall. I can start it again easily but the same problem repeats itself.

 

As long as there are 2 bars or less on the oil temp gauge, this the motor stalls.

 

When there's three to five bars, it doesn't stall but still idles a bit low. (no fast idle engaged)

 

Last night I did a TPS re-learn (pull fuse 5), waited about 30 min, replaced fuse......twist throttle ten times, but it still stalls with 2 bars or less.

 

I pulled fuse five this morning along with the CCP but drove my car to work. I'll get home and do the re-learn again and see how it runs without the coding plug.

 

I may also hook up the GS911 and plot the O2 sensor activity.

 

Any other ideas would be appreciated. No other running issues. The bike seems to want to run at 100mph all day long, and pulls like a freight train through the gears.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

[dirtrider]

Evening Rick

 

Could be a LOT of things, when did the problem start as I know it was running pretty good last year?

 

Fouled lower spark plug from overnight oil wash-down is something that can suddenly start.

 

Coking of the TB bores is something that usually comes on gradually.

 

Did you access the battery or air filter recently? If so then make sure that the IAT (temp sensor on air filter top) is fully plugged in & the internal terminals are making POSITIVE contact with the sensor pins.

 

Depending on how long it runs before stalling it could be the o2 sensor but I thought you replaced it not that long ago?

 

A GS-911 data trap would be nice, especially if you can trap it right at or just before stall.

 

Added: on your 1150 (Ma 2.4 system) removing the CCP doesn't stop the o2 sensor use like on the 1100 (Ma 2.2 systems).

 

You don't have the o2 sensor pig tail close to the lower R/H spark plug wire do you?

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

+1. Stay with the correct coding plug. I've made some discoveries about coding plugs that strongly suggest staying with stock. I'll write it up soon.

[RPG]

Evening Rick

 

Could be a LOT of things, when did the problem start as I know it was running pretty good last year?

 

Fouled lower spark plug from overnight oil wash-down is something that can suddenly start.

 

Coking of the TB bores is something that usually comes on gradually.

 

Did you access the battery or air filter recently? If so then make sure that the IAT (temp sensor on air filter top) is fully plugged in & the internal terminals are making POSITIVE contact with the sensor pins.

 

Depending on how long it runs before stalling it could be the o2 sensor but I thought you replaced it not that long ago?

 

A GS-911 data trap would be nice, especially if you can trap it right at or just before stall.

 

Added: on your 1150 (Ma 2.4 system) removing the CCP doesn't stop the o2 sensor use like on the 1100 (Ma 2.2 systems).

 

You don't have the o2 sensor pig tail close to the lower R/H spark plug wire do you?

 

 

Afternoon D.R.,

 

The problem appears to have started last week. I normally start the bike and then I run into the house for a second, but noticed it's stalling now.

 

Yes, I've checked the air filter recently so I'll verify a good IAT connection on top of the airbox.

 

Yes, the O2 sensor was replaced a couple of years ago and appeared normal in graphing while running the GS911 the last time I had it connected last summer.

 

I do have the O2 sensor cable as far away from the lower RH high tension spark plug, remembering what happened when I had them in close proximity about four years ago. (Very frequent stalling, other issues)

 

Last night I did a TPS re-learn and removed the CAT code plug. This morning it didn't stall. I should mention that I added a bottle of Techlusion Fuel cleaner (the good stuff with the Techron). Rode to work, ran perfect. No stalling this morning while warming up.

 

We'll see how it runs on the way home but I will put the CCP back in. Thanks for the tip on leaving the CCP in. I thought that it might not matter with the Ma 2.4, so thanks for confirming.

 

RPG

[RPG]

The problem has migrated to very hard starting. (cranks forever before firing)

 

I'll get the GS-911 on it tonight and report what I find.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

[roger 04 rt]

What kind of battery do you have?

 

I had a problem with symptoms similar to yours. It was a chronically under-charged pc680.

 

If you capture a csv log that begins before you crank it may show the problem.

[RPG]

hi Roger, I have an Odyssey PC680 and I do keep it regularly charged. I didn't capture the voltage prior to cranking with the GS-911 but static voltage check with a Fluke indicates 12.7vdc. And no problems spinning the motor.

 

The GS-911 appears to indicate I have a erratic O2 sensor. Right before it stalls, the graph line goes fairly flat.

 

If that is the case, can you tell me if the Bosch #13474 is still the best direct replacement?

 

thanks everyone,

 

RPG

 

[RPG]

oops, forgot to attach the O2 plot from last night's test.

 

thanks again,

 

RPG

[AnotherLee]

Rick -

The link to your GS911 data doesn't work.

This forum requires you to upload your file to a host site, then post a link here. We'd like to see your data.

[roger 04 rt]

Q

hi Roger, I have an Odyssey PC680 and I do keep it regularly charged. I didn't capture the voltage prior to cranking with the GS-911 but static voltage check with a Fluke indicates 12.7vdc. And no problems spinning the motor.

 

The GS-911 appears to indicate I have a erratic O2 sensor. Right before it stalls, the graph line goes fairly flat.

 

If that is the case, can you tell me if the Bosch #13474 is still the best direct replacement?

 

thanks everyone,

 

RPG

 

Rpg. Likely the O2 sensor is fine. It looks like it is telling you the engine is very lean and that's the cause of stalling.

[RPG]

I'm going to pull the panels off tonight for a more in depth inspection.

 

thanks guys,

 

RPG

[dirtrider]

Morning Rick

 

While in there you might do a fuel return hose flow test just to eliminate in-tank leakages causing a lean condition.

 

Another thing to check is for moisture/water in the o2 sensor connector & also verify that the o2 sensor pigtail isn't drooping down on the hot exhaust.

 

Also re-post your .csv file as your original didn't work for us. (or see if TheOtherLee will host it for you.

 

 

[AnotherLee]

Send it to my personal email address (found in my profile) as an attachment if you need help with that.

 

[RPG]

I'm going to pull the panels off tonight for a more in depth inspection.

 

thanks guys,

 

RPG

[RPG]

Morning Rick

 

While in there you might do a fuel return hose flow test just to eliminate in-tank leakages causing a lean condition.

 

Another thing to check is for moisture/water in the o2 sensor connector & also verify that the o2 sensor pigtail isn't drooping down on the hot exhaust.

 

Also re-post your .csv file as your original didn't work for us. (or see if TheOtherLee will host it for you.

 

 

Good morning D.R. Yes, that's on my list of checks to do.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

[RPG]

Send it to my personal email address (found in my profile) as an attachment if you need help with that.

 

Well, thank you very much Lee. Unfortunately, it's on my home PC so I'll get that to you this evening.

 

RPG

[AnotherLee]

Two GS911 files from Rick:

He said: here's the two files that I captured prior to the bike stalling both times.

 

Rick log 2015-05-22.csv

 

Rick log 2015-05-22_2.csv

[AnotherLee]

Here's a link to a chart made from Rick's 2nd data set.

Towards the end of the run, shouldn't the ignition angle increase with increasing RPM?

Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong..

Rick Chart 1

[RPG]

Thanks for posting that Lee. Very interesting. I'm guessing ignition angle is timing advance? And if so, I would expect an increase in angle as rpm's rise.

 

Last night I did find something interesting. I had removed the exhaust headers last winter to be coated by Jet Hot. I made sure not to route the O2 sensor cable near the lower right high tension lead. However, I didn't take the same precaution near the ignition coil.

 

For about 8", the O2 sensor cable near the connector, was routed parallel to the right side H.T. lead as it exits the coil.

 

I re-routed this to get some distance, did a TPS re-learn and at least now it isn't stalling. But idle just seems rough still. A cleaning of the LBS didn't help much either.

 

I pulled the lower plugs last night and they looked surprisingly clean. Tonight I'll ohm out the coil and H.T. leads as well as check fuel pressure and main plugs.

 

thanks guys,

 

RPG

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rick

 

Don't read too much into that ignition angle drop, without matching data from other sensors & throttle angle gain that timing can be very dynamic.

 

If there is a chance that your o2 sensor input was influenced by the R/H lower spark plug high frequency crosstalk then you might do a battery disconnect for about 30 minutes to remove any unwanted fueling offset learning. Corrupt o2 input signal can have a negative effect on fuel trim learning.

 

Do a new TPS relearn if you do the battery disconnect.

 

 

[RPG]

Afternoon Rick

 

Don't read too much into that ignition angle drop, without matching data from other sensors & throttle angle gain that timing can be very dynamic.

 

If there is a chance that your o2 sensor input was influenced by the R/H lower spark plug high frequency crosstalk then you might do a battery disconnect for about 30 minutes to remove any unwanted fueling offset learning. Corrupt o2 input signal can have a negative effect on fuel trim learning.

 

Do a new TPS relearn if you do the battery disconnect.

 

 

hey D.R.,

 

thanks for the input. I usually pull fuse five for a few minutes, but I'll go further and disconnect the battery as you suggest.

 

One other thing that I thought about. It's been awhile since a valve adjustment check. Working on Airheads over the years that crappy idle usually starts with an assumption that the valve clearances are spot on.

 

So I'll add that to the list tonight as well.

 

Thank You very much,

 

RPG

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rick

 

Yes you can just remove fuse 5 but with the plastic already removed battery is easy to get to.

[RPG]

Did the valve check last night. All valves were perfect.

 

Disconnected the battery and went to guitar class. Came back an hour later, reconnected, did the TPS re-learn.

 

Start the bike, runs for a bit, (showing idle starts to drop (from about 1000rpm with fast idle set to about 900), then it stalls.

 

I pulled both stick coils and ohmed them out on the bench. I didn't have any specs but pins 1-3 show .9 ohms on both. Spark plug lead to any of the three pins is open. Both stick coils measure the same as well as a set of spares I've had laying around that were working.

 

It was late so I didn't get a chance to work on it further, but this morning, it wouldn't start.

 

My plan after work is to get a fresh set of spark plugs and use those to determine if the stick coils are working, secondary coil is working and verify fuel pressure.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Rick

 

There is no good way to ohm out your stick coils (secondary doesn't loop directly back to ground). Even if you could & the resistance shows good that doesn't give you stick coil operational condition.

 

The usual form of stick coil failure is internal arcing & that won't show in a simple resistance test.

 

You might try your cold start then run to stall test again-- this time try it with a disconnected o2 sensor, if a disconnected o2 eliminates the stalling then possibly a poisoned o2 sensor.

[RPG]

I'll add that to the list D.R.

 

thanks,

[RPG]

so here's the latest.

 

unplugged O2 sensor and still wouldn't start.

Verified that both stick coils are good (strong spark)

Verified that secondary plug coil is good (strong spark)

Lower plug wires ohm out to 1302 ohms (left), 1350 ohms (right)

Secondary coil ohms out at .6 ohms primary, 7.8k ohms secondary

I then removed the fuel injectors to check fuel delivery and got nothing when cranking the engine. Reconnected O2 sensor.

 

I then pulled the fuel pump relay and swapped it with the horn relay (same part) and voila it fired right up, spray pattern looks good on both sides.

 

However, it still is stalling occasionally. It starts up, idles fine and then appears to load up a bit, the idle drops and it stalls. Wait a second, starts again, idles fine again for a few minutes and then same thing.

 

Running GS-911 and doing some more plotting. Will keep all informed. For now, I need a new fuel pump relay. Tomorrow, fuel pressure check.

 

RPG

[RPG]

Can anyone give a source for the fuel pump relay? It doesn't appear to be listed on MaxBMW.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

[roger 04 rt]

Can anyone give a source for the fuel pump relay? It doesn't appear to be listed on MaxBMW.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

 

02 61 36 6 902 041 MINIRELAY, MAKE CONTACT, YELLOW 0.04 1 $19.41ADD TO CART

 

 

Rick,

Have you measured return fuel volume or fuel pressure?

[RPG]

Can anyone give a source for the fuel pump relay? It doesn't appear to be listed on MaxBMW.

 

thanks,

 

RPG

 

02 61 36 6 902 041 MINIRELAY, MAKE CONTACT, YELLOW 0.04 1 $19.41ADD TO CART

 

 

Rick,

Have you measured return fuel volume or fuel pressure?

 

good morning Roger. Thanks for the part number. I'll be checking fuel pressure/volume this evening.

 

RPG

[RPG]

Most recent updates.

 

Last night I ran a fuel pressure check. Pretty consistent at 48-50 psi. The timing was checked and was spot on. The OT mark was centered in the timing hole just as the fuel pump turns on.

 

Changed the fuel filter this morning and buttoned it all up.

 

The only thing left on my list of probable is bad gasoline. I had about a gallon left so added three gallons of fresh fuel.

 

I need to run this through more. The bike still stalls a few times when showing 1-2 bars oil temp. Once it gets to 3, 4, 5 it seems to idle fairly smoothly.

 

I think I'll run the GS-911 again and look for oil temp activity in that 1-2 bar range.

 

Out,

 

RPG

[RPG]

One other side note. I did order a new fuel pump relay from MaxBMW so should have it next week. In the meantime, I notice that swapped horn relay is very warm. I assume it's a constant duty relay and is up to the task.

 

Just an observation.

 

RPG

[roger 04 rt]

RPG, Did you also check return fuel volume at idle?

[RPG]

I'll be checking that this evening. Thanks for the head's up.

 

RPG

[RPG]

Here's an update on my stalling issue:

 

I loaded the GS911 data into Excel and graphed out the fuel pump power data.

 

Here I noticed several failures and they always coincided with the stalling.

 

A new fuel pump relay seems to have resolved it. Two days now, (about 200 miles) with no issues.

 

Interestingly, the new relay (from MaxBMW) is yellow, the original is black. I need to check out the specs on these.

 

Thanks for all the insight and help. Feels good to learn more and more about this bike.

 

RPG

[roger 04 rt]

I'm glad your problem has gone away but it may come back. I'm not going to suggest that the fuel pump relay isn't at fault but the data probably isn't telling you what you think.

 

The binary "Fuel Pump" data that the GS-911 reports is only telling you what the Motronic is commanding. So if it was commanding ON (a "1" in the data) but the relay failed to close, you would still see a "1".

 

The reason you see a "0" at the point the engine stalled is because the Motronic commands the pump.

 

Earlier data showed the "lambda sensor voltage" low at the point of stalling. If you go back and check that you will also see the pump go off.

[Mike E]

I needed to replace the load-relief relay last year, and the replacement was yellow as well. Same one as horn and fuel pump. Same spec, they're just yellow now.