Jump to content
IGNORED

oil viscosity

denver

By denver
in Wetheads

Recommended Posts

RSH

RSH

Posted
Posted

Go to Wal*Mart and buy the 5-40 Shell Rotella T6 synthetic, use as directed and never read an oil thread - ever. I buy several 5L jugs when it is on sale.

 

I use it in 3 bikes, which all have different types of motors & transmissions. Everything shifts & runs perfect in the affected areas, regardless of the ambient temperature.

 

In my 2012 R1200RT I use gear oil, in the transmission, of course. You won't have to to as your bike has a wet-clutch using the same oil as the engine. If it is a 2014 or 2015 R1200RT

 

My travels have taken me into in the 33F to 104F temperature ranges, depending where & what time of the year - with no oil consumption problems, starting or sticky shifts.

Link to comment
Guest Kakugo

Guest Kakugo

Posted
Posted

Local dealers just stock 15W-50 and 10W-40. The former is used on all boxers up to and including Hexhead's, the latter on all other bikes.

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

 

Link to comment
Alfred02

Alfred02

Posted
Posted
Local dealers just stock 15W-50 and 10W-40. The former is used on all boxers up to and including Hexhead's, the latter on all other bikes.

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

Are you sure?

The Boxer Wethead is a different animal and since the new Boxer appears to use zero oil between oil changes, is it worth trying to safe a penny?

Link to comment
Guest Kakugo

Guest Kakugo

Posted
Posted
Local dealers just stock 15W-50 and 10W-40. The former is used on all boxers up to and including Hexhead's, the latter on all other bikes.

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

Are you sure?

The Boxer Wethead is a different animal and since the new Boxer appears to use zero oil between oil changes, is it worth trying to safe a penny?

 

If BMW dealers here use 10W-40 on Camheads, Wetheads etc it means BMW has given them the green light.

 

The Japanese have been using 10W-40 in their bikes for decades. Honda attempted shifting to 10W-30 a while back but now dealers have been instructed to put 10W-40 in them "should the customer require so". It was done to lower fuel consumption a tiny bit and ended in tears with CBR1000RR owners loudly complaining about "excessive oil consumption". Complaints were probably overblown, but they had a point: why change something that has been proven to work well with something that isn't as satisfactory?

 

I strongly suspect all this move towards low weight oils is nothing more than a marketing gimmick: I have a big pile of Honda shop manuals and even the most recent ones just give you a table to pick oil weight from, not "use 10W-30".

Manufacturers like Honda or BMW are always under pressure from BP (Castrol), Petronas etc to force their dealers to adopt their products because it means a captive market worth thousands of barrels each year. This doesn't simply mean "use Castrol oil" but "use this very specific product", usually one of those with the highest margins.

The most extreme case is Stihl, the German power equipment manufacturers: they have been attempting to force upon users their unrated two stroke premix oil, which is barely equivalent to a JASO-FB, by threatening us with Hellfire. I have been using a Castrol JASO-FD oil because, get this, it's cheaper than their junk and just better. ;)

 

 

Link to comment
dirtrider

dirtrider

Posted
Posted

Morning Denver

 

If BMW recommends 5w40 then why would anyone consider 10w40?

 

I'm sure there are a number of 10w40 oils that could meet BMW requirements but the BMW oil requirement for the new water cooled engines is pretty specific as far as viscosity & rating -(API SL / JASO MA2)

 

There is also an oil additive warning about NOT using oil's that contain on a molybdenum additive.

 

If you are considering using a 10w40 then make sure that it meets the BMW requirement of SL / JASO MA2 & contains no molybdenum additives.

 

One of the big differences in 10w40 vs 5w40 is that there are a lot of 10w40 oils that won't/don't meet the JASO MA2 specs. A good many 5w40 will meet the JASO MA2 specs.

 

If you deviate from the BMW recommended just make sure that you do the research to verify your oil choice meets BMW requirements & won't effect your engine warranty.

 

Link to comment
mountainmann

mountainmann

Posted
Posted

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

 

I had a 2012 K1600. 10W40 oil was initially allowed for use in this bike per the owners manual. About a year or so ago, BMW announced that the only approved oil for all K1600s was changed to the Castrol Racing 4T 5W40 oil. Unless something has changed very recently again, the Castrol 4T 5W40 oil remains the only approved oil for the K1600. I follow the k1600 forum every day and no one has posted anything about the change back to 10W40 oil that you mention. Is this something your dealer has told you?

Link to comment
Ponch

Ponch

Posted
Posted

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

 

I had a 2012 K1600. 10W40 oil was initially allowed for use in this bike per the owners manual. About a year or so ago, BMW announced that the only approved oil for all K1600s was changed to the Castrol Racing 4T 5W40 oil. Unless something has changed very recently again, the Castrol 4T 5W40 oil remains the only approved oil for the K1600. I follow the k1600 forum every day and no one has posted anything about the change back to 10W40 oil that you mention. Is this something your dealer has told you?

 

I don't think a manufacturer can demand that only one oil be used. Something about the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act. If they specify that a particular oil has to be used, they have to supply it at their cost.

Link to comment
mountainmann

mountainmann

Posted
Posted

BMW and Castrol attempted introducing a 5W-40 for the K1600 but it led to a laundry list of complaints and was scrapped. Dealers were happy to see it go since it meant stocking one less item.

 

You will have no problems with 10W-40. :)

 

 

I had a 2012 K1600. 10W40 oil was initially allowed for use in this bike per the owners manual. About a year or so ago, BMW announced that the only approved oil for all K1600s was changed to the Castrol Racing 4T 5W40 oil. Unless something has changed very recently again, the Castrol 4T 5W40 oil remains the only approved oil for the K1600. I follow the k1600 forum every day and no one has posted anything about the change back to 10W40 oil that you mention. Is this something your dealer has told you?

 

I don't think a manufacturer can demand that only one oil be used. Something about the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act. If they specify that a particular oil has to be used, they have to supply it at their cost.

 

You are correct. I was aiming more at their requirement of 5W40 versus 10W40, which they do specify as part of their overall spec now for the water cooled boxer and the K1600 engines. From the current owners manual for the WC GS, WC GSA and WC RT bikes and also the latest K1600:

 

Product recommended by BMW Motorrad: Castrol Power 1 Racing

SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2

 

The problem is try to find a oil from someone other than Castrol or BMW brand oil that meets the spec.

Link to comment
Ponch

Ponch

Posted
Posted

Rotella might be a choice and I am sure there are others. It seems cars and bikes are using thinner oils. I've even seen 0w oil. I still use mobil 1 15w-50 or 20w-50 in my 2009. Seems to like the 20w-50 better in terms of oil consumption, so a quart every 6000 instead of 5000.

Link to comment
mountainmann

mountainmann

Posted
Posted
You can get the correct Castrol oil on Amazon for a good price and free shipping. Be careful what you use as the wrong oil can harm the wet clutch. You could probably find a compatible oil from Honda or one of the other manufacturers.

http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-06410-Power-4-Stroke-Motorcycle/dp/B008MISDII/ref=pd_ybh_3

 

That's where I buy mine. Price about as good as any similar oil, so why not use a BMW approved oil?

 

I have heard nothing but good things about the Rotella T6 oil, so maybe I will try it when the warranty runs out.

Link to comment
WBinDE

WBinDE

Posted
Posted

Fascinating, I went to the source http://jalos.or.jp/ and found the list of oils that are certified by JASO http://jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf and "Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T" is only certified to JASO MA (not MA2) as of 1 December 2014. You can look on the rest of the 35-page document to see if your preferred oil is listed.

 

I personally like Rotella T6. Shell has not paid the certification fees for listing as MA or MA2 although they have tested it and claim compliance to MA but not MA2. It worked fine in my wet-clutch Goldwing which had more torque than my RTW.

 

For those who are interested, this page helps clarify the difference between MA and MA2 http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php

Link to comment
Rob L

Rob L

Posted
Posted

This list must be incomplete, as you mentioned the Castrol oil not being listed. Mobil oil has a 10/w40 that meets the spec but isn't 5/w40 viscocity (Nos. 100 & 101)

 

Overall, very few oils meet BMW spec. and very few are available off the shelf locally.

Link to comment
mountainmann

mountainmann

Posted
Posted

Here is a spec page on Rotella T6 that says it is not to be used in motorcycles:

 

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/shell-rotella-t6-5w-40-heavy-duty-fully-synthetic-motor-oil-1-gallon-550019921/8120031-P?jadid=61381013245&Japanese=1t2&jkId=gpt:pt_134962&js=1&jsid=34339&jt=1&jr=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/shell-rotella-t6-5w-40-heavy-duty-fully-synthetic-motor-oil-1-gallon-550019921/8120031-P#fragment-2

Link to comment
chrisolson

chrisolson

Posted
Posted

At issue is the anacdotal "I've used it for years and had no issues" vs. two accepted industry standards for classifying and rating oil (API, JASO) and manufacturers recommendations.

 

Also confusing is that the preponderance of Boxer BMWs and K bikes had dry clutches prior to the recent shift to wet clutches. Consequently the term 'motorcycle' is not all inclusive when talking about oil. The difference is important in regards to the addition of friction modifiers prevelant in modern oils engineered for automobiles and the significance of JASO certification for motorcycles that use a wet clutch.

 

Even though its marketing its own brand, here's as good a technical discussion as any about the issue.

LINKY

 

Without wading through it completely ...

 

SUMMARY:

Performance issues in wet-clutch applications can arise for a variety of reasons. Though most are mechanical in nature, driver operation and the type of lubricant used can also have a dramatic impact. Lubrication-related wet-clutch issues stem more from additive chemistry than the base oil used in the lubricant. Therefore, general statements suggesting synthetic oils somehow offer less compatibility are generalizations based on a flawed hypothesis. Keys to selecting the correct oil for use in wet-clutch applications include:

 

1. Ensuring the oil meets the JASO and ISO frictional requirements set forth by the equipment manufacturer.

2. Making sure the oil can provide high-temperature and oxidation stability.

3. Checking that the oil offers shear stability and controls foaming.

4. Using the oil with the correct viscosity (grade) recommended by the equipment manufacturer.

 

 

Link to comment
dirtrider

dirtrider

Posted
Posted

Afternoon Ponch

 

 

Last I checked the JASO MA/MA2 requirement limits ash content to 1.2%. Ash content of ROTELLA T 5w40 exceeds the 1.2% ash limit (or at least it did when last tested).

 

 

Link to comment
chrisolson

chrisolson

Posted
Posted

Yep, lots of oils are rated MA or as in the case of T6 'meets requirements' but not specifically gone through formal certification. The problem is BMW specs MA2. So is close enough really good enough ?

 

The further issue is API itself. T6 is rated as CI4/SN which is both a diesel © and gasoline (S) API rating and that's good. However, many API C rated oils are C only. I know that most folks will argue the point but the API organization itself says " ... 'C' category oils have been formulated primarily for diesel engines and may not provide all of the performance requirements consistent with vehicle manufacturers’ recommendations for gasoline fueled engines." Won't even guess at what the exact difference is.

 

Bottom line is JASO certification (or at least 'meets requirements') is good for wet clutches. Following manufacture's specs on API and viscosity ratings are simple choices. Will using anything else create catastrophic failures ... nah, but it makes for great, never ending oil threads. :rofl:

Link to comment
dirtrider

dirtrider

Posted
Posted

 

Afternoon Ponch

 

Thanks, it looks like they changed the Sulfated ash content. I use the 5w40 Rotella in my diesel tractors. The latest gallon Rotella containers I have do show meets MA specs but my older 5 gal buckets (few years old) doesn't show meeting MA on the label. (interesting)

Link to comment
Guest Kakugo

Guest Kakugo

Posted
Posted

Just adding a quick thing.

 

JASO certifications are pretty pricey to obtain, surely pricier than API ratings, and not mandatory outside of Japan, hence many put the certification into the future or just do away with them entirely.

With more and more manufacturers requiring JASO-certified lubricants, the pressure is there for more to comply.

 

One thing that never ceases to surprise me is the big difference when it comes to oils between Japan and Europe on one side and the US on the other.

When JASO-MA2 came out in 2006, European oil brands such as Motul and Motorex pretty much scrambled to get their products certified. Even the cheap Repsol synthetic I put in my Honda is JASO-MA2 certified.

US brands, however, seem to have proceeded at a much more leisurely pace. The best motorcycle oil here has always been considered the Mobil 1 Racing 4T. Always top rated in tests and all of those who used it cannot speak highly enough of it. Yet it got a JASO certification only in 2013. And Exxon doesn't strike me as a small upstart starved for capital or a struggling firm... :grin:

 

Link to comment
mneblett

mneblett

Posted
Posted
I don't think a manufacturer can demand that only one oil be used. Something about the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act. If they specify that a particular oil has to be used, they have to supply it at their cost.

They can't make you use a specific brand without providing it, but they *can* require the oil you use meet specific criteria (such as weight range and rating) without running afoul of Moss-Magnusson. If you choose to use something outside of the defined specs and you have a problem, they would be in their rights to deny warranty coverage.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Go to topic listing
×
×
  • Create New...