Which M-4/AR-15 to buy?

[SteveHebert]

I am in the market and would love to hear from a different perspective than what I have been surrounded by these past 29 years. I have guys I work with everyday that can build me anything I want but they have a very different mind set of what I may need.

 

I would like to hear a civilians perspective on what they have and why.

 

Let's not turn this into a pro gun or anti gun thread, just the facts about, and the decisions behind your weapon of choice.

[John Ranalletta]

Suggest you ring up Justin here. Tell him you were referred by one Heather's colleagues at ADVISA. With your history, you should connect easily.

Justin holds an MBA from the University of Oregon and is an undergraduate of West Point. He served as an Infantry officer and completed two combat tours in Iraq – the first near Baghdad and the second in Ramadi. He is a graduate of Ranger, Airborne, and Air Assault schools.

Heather, Justin's SO, is a consultant with my former firm, a West Point grad herself:

She is also a graduate of both the U.S. and French airborne schools (paratrooper training). During her military service, she served two tours in Iraq as a logistics officer leading combat supply convoys and also spent a year as director of human resources for 429 employees. Following her military service, Heather transitioned to business consulting helping companies achieve their objectives.

[MT Wallet]

Domestic or foreign use? Sporting or hunting? Self defense? Would help to know what you intend to use it for.

[SteveHebert]

Thanks for the info John. I am trying to stay away from a military point of view as I have quite a bit of that and experience in that area.

 

This will be for domestic use, self defense for protecting the property and family when the Zombie Apocalypse happens . Or when China shuts down the electrical grid.

[Bud]

Had a lengthy answer and then thought better.

 

If you feel the need for self defense, I would say the bigger the better and very large clips to go with.

 

BTW Zombies aren't allowed in S. Illinois.

[BadAdam]

Why would you buy an m-4/AR-15 for self defense purposes? I'm not a gun expert by any means but it always seemed that a shotgun with wide-spread loads or pistol would be a much better weapon for self defense as you can be much more inaccurate with the short rifle.

 

Inquiring minds (or maybe just mine) would like to know.

 

PS - I'd go all reality tv and buy one of these:

Red Jacket m4

 

[drtnsnw]

Why would you buy an m-4/AR-15 for self defense purposes? I'm not a gun expert by any means but it always seemed that a shotgun with wide-spread loads or pistol would be a much better weapon for self defense as you can be much more inaccurate with the short rifle.

 

Inquiring minds (or maybe just mine) would like to know.

 

PS - I'd go all reality tv and buy one of these:

Red Jacket m4

 

2 different uses completely! Shotguns are for very close range where ar style are for clsoe range. Shotguns have a very limited capacity where AR style has larger and almost instant reload with practice and training.

 

To the OP,

 

It all depends on the price you want to spend and the function you want. If you want a plinker that is a very reliable BASE Look at the DPMS Oricle. Great platform to build on. I have literally thousands of dollars into mine because it is so easy to play.

 

If you want a good out of the box gun then look at Colt or Sig. Much more expensive but very high end!

 

I love building AR-15's they are tinker toys for guys!! Your mind and wallet is about all that can limit you

 

Chris

[MikeB60]

Colt LE6920 available at the Enterprise Walmart. Can't do better for for the price.

[eddd]

Shotguns have very limited capacity?

 

 

More?

 

[DiggerJim]

Why would you buy an m-4/AR-15 for self defense purposes? I'm not a gun expert by any means but it always seemed that a shotgun with wide-spread loads or pistol would be a much better weapon for self defense as you can be much more inaccurate with the short rifle.

Because it's a better self-defense/home defense weapon than a shotgun. I have this conversation with all of my students every time someone asks. The press and all sorts of powers-that-be that have never fired a weapon keep blathering on about the defensive properties of a shotgun and how it's much better than an "assault" rifle for home defense. Trouble is that shotgun loads spread and some of it will go around/past the target. Then it goes through the sheetrock in pretty much original form to exit the other side of a typical home interior wall. Whatever is on the other side is going to be hit by shot.

 

A .223 round however (typical 55gr load) will generally go into the target. Hard to miss a person sized target at close range with the AR. Once inside the target all that energy gets transferred to the target's bodily fluids which don't compress well so it tends to do inappropriate damage vs a pistol round (although the bullet mass is small, its velocity is high - 50-100% higher than a normal pistol round) and all that energy makes a mess inside the target as it tumbles around inside the organ mass.

 

Sometimes it may exit the target but will have most if its energy spent and if it hits the sheetrock on the other side will likely fall inside the wall cavity. If it does make it thru the 2nd layer of sheetrock it's tumbling and falling and not likely to inflict much damage on the other side.

 

Easy test to make yourself a 32"x48" "wall" out of a sheet of sheetrock & some 2x4. Shoot it with the AR and then with the shotgun. You'll put the shotgun away and get yourself an AR for home defense.

 

A pistol is a whole different animal, harder to control in a high stress situation requiring lethal force and much more likely to exit the target (4 times the mass in a typical 45 cal bullet vs the 223) unless you're using a frangible round. That's going to end up in a wall and possibly through it as well. A 45 with frangible bullets is an outstanding home/self-defense weapon with the proper training but I still lean towards an AR for home defense - even in the absence of the zombie apocalypse.

 

While I'm a proponent of only needing a single round (make it count) in the situation where it's needed you are going to be able to have far more capacity with the AR as well - even in the 10 round magazine states you can tape two together overlapping top to bottom and you'll have 20 rounds by only needing a quick drop & flip motion vs carrying extra magazines. Of course if you have 20 round magazines that would allow you 40 rounds at your ready use.

 

I also recommend to my students that they get a tactical light and a laser dot sight. The laser makes it much easier to aim (although it's a very point-and-shoot weapon in close quarters) in the dark and a target who sees it paint their chest is likely to run away or they'll quickly fall down when the round hits them. (Although movies & TV shows to the contrary, most people don't spend a lot of time looking at their own chests.) So a high-lumen tactical flashlight attached to the rail of the AR will illuminate the target, possibly distract or even temporarily blind them and allow you to get a well placed shot off with less pressure.

 

All in all, the AR is a better weapon. I'm a fan of Colt's with an HBAR due to the heavier weight of the barrel - it's just a little addition to the controlability factor of the weapon.

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

Shotguns have very limited capacity?

 

 

Wow, I would love to see that guys shoulder the next day. It HAD to look like hamburger.

[SuperG]

Cool.. an other "just opened can of worms" tread. I predict you will have lots of answers here.

 

Every man that have ever laid an hand on a weapon ( and liked it ) should have a variety of tools in their tool chest.

shotgun, hand gun, semi auto carbine, and a precision long riffle.

 

You have asked about the AR platform specifically.

 

Just one AR-15 you are planning to buy?

an AR is a BAD-BAD weapon - in a good way.

to ask it an other way: buy one expensive AR or two less expensive for the same amount of money? I opted for the later and went for a commercially produced civilian model M&P15 by Smith & Wesson.

 

It should be:

1 AR setup for close quarter

short barrel (legal lenght 16") with a holographic sight like an eotech, for building/home size runs. Must have light, laser is a plus but not necessary.

 

1 Ar-15 setup with a light weight scope 3-9x will do fine for a more longer distance precision shooting. ( i also like 1-6x scope as well, 1x for both eyes open or 6x when things need to be magnified)

 

if you want to take it a step further a SAPR (semi auto precision riffle- in a larger caliber AR-10 platform will give a bit more punch in the 30 caliber round but comes with a weight penalty when it needs to be lugged around.

 

Shootgun is the sledgehammer in the tool chest, loaded with slugs (a .73" caliber lead ball vs a .223" Ar round)when something need a large hole punched through (door, lock), or zombie needs a limb, head or torso removed

 

 

[SteveHebert]

Thanks for all the replies and the great information.

 

I currently own several pistols, 9mm and .45 cal. I will purchase a .38 spc + P next so I am set there.

 

I carry a Bushmaster AR-15 with an Eotech site and a Beretta 9mm every day here in country. My basic load of ammo is 5, 30-round magazines for the AR, and 3, 15-round magazines for the 9mm.

 

The purpose of the post is to see what the civilian mind set is in regards to the AR. I understand fully that the sky is the limit on price but do not want to go that route. I want an out of the box purchase that I can add only a site to if desired. I do like the flashlight and laser dot option as well.

 

I have looked at a Windham Weaponry CDI, a Smith & Wesson MP &T, a Colt LE 6920 (did not know they carried them at Walmart Mike-thanks!), and a Rock River specific built AR. Price point for me is around $1000.

 

I want the AR for the range, 200-300 meters is what I would say is sufficient. In the Marine Corps, we shot the M-16 out to 500 yards. I know the shorter barrell of the AR will reduce range but will be more than I need.

 

I like the flat top options with folding sites like the Magpul versions so I could use iron sites that I like, or an added optics option.

 

30 round magazines are what I am used to so I will continue with them. 10 rounds could be okay, unless you need 11. I do agree with well placed, single shots-the sign of a true marksman.

 

I am looking at the various options of rifling. 1:7 vs 1:8 or 1:9. Any advise there? I am told here to only look at the 1:7 so I can fire a higher grain round. Is that necessary?

 

Thanks again

 

 

[jbr7t]

Steve..My friend Jeff works for SSG Tactical in Fredericksburg Va. He was military but has spent quite a bit of time on training and fitting weaponry for the civilian world as well. If you are interested in talking with someone with a lot of experience on both civilian and military side I'd be happy to get y'all in touch.

 

For my opinion, I think most of the standard brands on the market that i've seen are pretty solid for basic "sport" shooting and defense. Where I've seen and heard people running into issues is when they start throwing thousands of rounds down range on the cheaper rifles. The barrels and actions just aren't up to the abuse.

[Marty Hill]

Steve, I've got a Colt and a Ruger. I can bring them down next time your home to use in the backyard. As if you need more range time.

[Patallaire]

Living in NY State, all AR15s became either illegal to buy now and if anyone owned them they need to be registered. 30 round clips are out, in fact any rifle with a pistol grip is illegal. Any pistol with more than 7 rounds is illegal. So, if you are going for home defense, you need to re-think it and try to make only one shot count and not have it come out of the barrel of a non-registered AR or from a clip with more than 7 rounds.

 

Inappropriate comment removed by Administrator.

[Marty Hill]

Off topic and inappropriate comment removed by Administrator.

[Mike]

Gang, per Steve's request, let's steer clear of the political stuff and keep it focused on his original question.

 

Personally, I don't have an AR--been too busy paying for a cabin--but it seems to me that Colt is the way to go. Overall, they're a quality manufacturer, and they've produced millions of the things. I've looked at some of the exotic variations, and they seem to me to be more focused on satisfying zombie-killer fantasies than on functionality.

[SteveHebert]

Lot's of the guys here are steering me toward the Colt. Widely known and already set up. I will take a look when. Get back home this weekend.

 

I do not plan on shooting thousands of rounds through it but am concerned about a cheap barrel.

 

Thanks again for the input.

 

Range time here is as often as we like it. I will miss the ease of that for sure.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

SPR but tweak the barrel length (18, 20 or 22") as you see fit. Build it yourself if you have time and tools. White Oak Arms or WOPrecision for the upper if you can wait their backlog.

Option 2 might be a Service Rifle knock off for precision....by WOA or WOP.

 

[Mister Tee]

I don't know how it plays out in the Civilian world but military versions were produced by a variety of manufacturers including Colt, and one was identical to the other save for the supplier's markings. They all shot the same and were about as reliable. Which means fairly reliable but not perfectly reliable.

 

If my own personal protection scenario involved a large defensible space where an assault rifle would be an appropriate choice, I wouldn't get an AR, I'd get a Ruger Mini 14. More compact, at least as accurate, more reliable, and the stainless model is more suited for tromping around in the elements. Biggest bang for your buck.

 

If you want to go a little more exotic there is the FNC assault rifle which can be had in 5.56 mm, but it's rather cheaply made and costly for what it is. If you want to go more exotic, there is the Herstal SCAR rifle, which is similar but more modern and has a rail mount system that can take some pretty exotic sighting devices. The only real advantage either of these hold over an AR is their ability to maintain a longer sustained rapid fire interval (meaning automatic fire) plus they both function better in a dirty environment. Both can be had in a semi auto only civilian version.

[1LIFE2LIVE]

Question, what if your home defense is a shotgun (Mossberg 590A1 Tactical) which is used by various law enforcement agencies using OO Buck followed up with some slugs?

 

Methinks this setup would be more than sufficient to end most intrusions.

[FLrider]

Question, what if your home defense is a shotgun (Mossberg 590A1 Tactical) which is used by various law enforcement agencies using OO Buck followed up with some slugs?

 

Methinks this setup would be more than sufficient to end most intrusions.

 

It's my opinion that weapons are like motorcycles. No one bike does everything you might to do. Dirt , Touring, DS? That's why many of us have more than one bike.

 

IMHO , just the sound of a shotgun racking will dissuade most intruders from coming any closer. It's an distinguishable sound like no other and in a home invasion situation, the bad guy won't like the odds and the fight will probably end right there. Choose your loads wisely....

 

When the grid goes down and your neighbor is willing to kill you to get to your food supply or whatever else he needs....I'd want the AR with lots of mags and ammo. Short barrel, collapsible stock. Someone 300 yards away from you isn't an immediate threat so keep the accessories simple and work on your technique and aim.

 

A Pistol is a must and while there are plenty who would argue the virtues of a .45 or .40 cal round....again, if the shtf, my guess is you will be more likely to "find" 9mm rounds than either of the above...

 

However , I digress . The OP's question was " which ar or m-4 should I get" . Not, "what type of weapon should I get".

 

Steve, my vote is for the rock river, chambered for .553 (which will also fire .226). Right price, well built.

 

I would also suggest your check out spikestactical.com. Awesome machining, customizable or great out of the box weapons. Great pricing.

 

You can pay for the name "colt" or you can use the money you saved to accessorize the RR or Spikes... And have as good a weapon if not better.

 

[SuperG]

YOu can also post a question on the ar15.com forum. or search you may find more info then what you need.

Back then when I researched options, if I recall it correctly the Colt that used to be is not the same Colt it is today.

Also if I recall it correctly there is 3-4 manufacturers that make the parts others just pump/stamp out fancy aluminum receivers with their logos. other companies may specialize on barrels and such.

 

As you said, if you want out of the box - under $1000 you may find that you will get the same exact riffle just with different cardboard boxing and stickers.

 

have you considered a gas piston driven AR like the ruger?

 

Not sure what State you call home, but it seems your "out of box" selection will vary greatly by location.

Here in Texas even walmart has a selection of choice of AR's. The further you go out toward the county stores the larger the selection get. Walmart here even stocks Nikon and Bushnell scopes - some low end stuff, but the selection is growing a year ago they did not have those.

Then you throw in the the sporting goods/hunting fishing stores, in Texas - Cabella's, Gander mountain, Dick's, Academy these brick and mortar stores have all the "out of the box" stuff you need.

 

If you are willing to go beyond $1000, look into HK Heckler & Koch.

 

[taters]

I'd go with a glock20. The Danish

Fish n game give it to their

Officers when they are in polar

Bear country.

For concealed carry a Glock 29.

Can't beat that 10mm round

Also get hornady critical defense ammo.

[BadAdam]

Off topic comments removed by moderator.

[Marty Hill]

Comment removed by moderator, again.

[brennaman]

Comment removed by moderator.

[eddd]

 

The original poster was very specific in his request for information. Please stick to that topic.

[mickeym3]

Great topic and inputs...been looking myself and find the Ruger Mini a nice looking little home defense system to augment my Glock. Keep them coming!

[jbr7t]

The mods are busy today!

 

Steve..I'm just curious here..but with your military experience I would assume you would have access/knowledge to "build" your AR. Is that not an option for you? I know several friends that have had success piecing the AR together and getting a higher quality overall package at a more affordable/reasonable price than something out of the box.

[tallman]

Steve,

Bought a Keltec SU 16 ; very light, folds to backpack size, accurate.

 

Not the most common choice but feedback from actual users seems good.

Of course it isn't a (insert name) but some have it as a bug out

rifle since it is so packable.

[TEWKS]

I bought a Colt AR back in 84. ($425.00 new) I use to walk about a mile and a half down the road to the local landfill with it strapped to my back. Could you imagine seeing that today? Swat teams would be activated state wide. This rifle easily makes a marksman out of the average Joe, which I'm sure you're not.

 

Pat

[Huzband]

I bought a Colt AR back in 84. ($425.00 new) I use to walk about a mile and a half down the road to the local landfill with it strapped to my back. Could you imagine seeing that today? Swat teams would be activated state wide. This rifle easily makes a marksman out of the average Joe, which I'm sure you're not.

 

Pat

 

I'm actually thinking of doing this. As a new years revolution against my lazy, fat self, I'm starting with taking up walking in the evening. Walking any distance with the .45 on my hip can get pretty uncomfortable, so I'm looking into slings.

 

The HOA should love me like never before.

[Kathy R]

I bought a Colt AR back in 84. ($425.00 new) I use to walk about a mile and a half down the road to the local landfill with it strapped to my back. Could you imagine seeing that today? Swat teams would be activated state wide. This rifle easily makes a marksman out of the average Joe, which I'm sure you're not.

 

Pat

 

I'm actually thinking of doing this. As a new years revolution against my lazy, fat self, I'm starting with taking up walking in the evening. Walking any distance with the .45 on my hip can get pretty uncomfortable, so I'm looking into slings.

 

The HOA should love me like never before.

 

Disclaimer: bmwsporttouring.com is in no way responsible for any revolutions perpetrated by it's members

 

 

 

I just couldn't resist

[Huzband]

I bought a Colt AR back in 84. ($425.00 new) I use to walk about a mile and a half down the road to the local landfill with it strapped to my back. Could you imagine seeing that today? Swat teams would be activated state wide. This rifle easily makes a marksman out of the average Joe, which I'm sure you're not.

 

Pat

 

I'm actually thinking of doing this. As a new years revolution against my lazy, fat self, I'm starting with taking up walking in the evening. Walking any distance with the .45 on my hip can get pretty uncomfortable, so I'm looking into slings.

 

The HOA should love me like never before.

 

Disclaimer: bmwsporttouring.com is in no way responsible for any revolutions perpetrated by it's members

 

 

 

I just couldn't resist

 

 

It's only a revolution against myself.

 

I know, my post was somewhat off topic. But I couldn't resist either. Am I really going to parade around my tight ass HOA neighborhood with an AR slung over my shoulder or, GAST, across my chest? I'd like to, but I think not. St. Johns County SD has absolutely NO sense of humor, nor recognition of Constitutional rights for that matter.

 

I have nothing of real significance to contribute to the OP's query, so I best stay out now. It was just that it's a new year, & I'm in an exceptionally good mood. Must have been the ride this morning.

[SteveHebert]

Tim,

 

That is an interesting rifle. I will read more on it.

 

James,

 

Yes I could build one and have the baddest weapon in the neighborhood. The intent behind me asking again was to see what a civilian thinks is important in this style weapon and what he/she would recommend and why.

 

I am not into building , I think. I tend to go overboard and want to remain sane in this venture. For instance, I started out looking for a nice, reliable car for me when I return this fall. A good used Honda Accord was the one - until I looked at some Audi's. Now my $15K car has turned into a nice used $30K car:). Still looking.

 

I like the Ruger mini 14 but the accessory market is limited for it.

 

The flat top or rail system seems to be the way to go. There is so much out there to add on.

 

Growing up in VT, I used to walk through the neighborhood with a marlin .35 cal and up into the woods to hunt. Life has changed for sure.

[jbr7t]

I see you point Steve. An out of the box would reign you in a little. Any AR platform has LOTS of options that can certainly add up the cost. I hope you can have the self control to keep it basic and to the necessity side of things. But what if.....

[SuperG]

The intent behind me asking again was to see what a civilian thinks is important in this style weapon and what he/she would recommend and why.

SO have you come up a conclusion?

Will you tell us your finding?

[SuperG]

Just thinking out loud here...

having some of the other .223 mentioned like the Keltec, or the ruger mini are nice alternatives to a standard AR-15.

Having something different is nice- i've done it my self... when everybody had Apple phones, I bought android, when Intel chips were hot, I got AMD processors and so on, Everybody got Harleys I got a BMW

The beauty of the AR's is that it is so popular that many companies compete to make aftermarket goodies for it; which are Mil specs so in most cases all interchangeable.

Example: If you do not like the stock trigger, there are at least a dozen companies that make excellent aftermarket triggers , modular or drop in cassette type, flat or curved trigger face, or with adjustable trigger pull weight and so on. Just about every part of the riffle can be customized to the owner's liking.

[SteveHebert]

No conclusion yet but I am leaning towards a Windham.

[marty mayer]

Hi Steve,

 

Never had much interest in a AR style gun. Last year my cousin bought a Windham Ar-15. After putting about 700 rounds through it what a fun gun to shoot. Accurate, Reliable. The first time shooting was little bit of a learning curve. We had some Serbian made metal case ammo. The third shot ever out of the gun one of the metal cases lodged itself in the gun. Had to follow the guns directions to point it in a safe direction and bang the stock while pulling on the charging handle to UN jam it. Wasn't sure if the round was live. After dis assembly we ended up using a old stainless cb antenna to put down the barrel. Just a light tap and it came out. Started asking around and was told that a metal case is not a good idea in a AR. Was later told that, that brand ammo the cases were sprayed with some kind of clear coating which melts when fired and welds itself in the gun. Never shot it again with that ammo and have never had another problem. As I said before sure this gun Isn't one of the big name guns (the price reflects that) but in our case it has been a very reliable, accurate, and fun gun to shoot.

 

Be Safe

Marty

[Rougarou]

Spend a little more and look into a Daniel Defense rifle. Also the Marine Corps is still qualifying at 500 yards/meters with the short barrel M4s.

 

Forgot to add for you to check out www.armslist.com for ads. You might just find what you're looking for.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Arf Dot Com Can be your friend. It is definitely not the friend of your wallet and there are many opinions. You sort of have to filter out the garbage.

[SteveHebert]

I doubt it was the weapon. Crappy ammo is always bad. We get our share for our mini guns and it is always a pain in the butt. We order the proper ammo but the bean countwrs look at other options and get the cheapest.

 

Windham is a brand name but most do no know of them. They machined weapons for Bushmaster for many years out of their factory in Maine. They were bought out and had a 5 year no-complete clause. After 5 years, the previous owner asked his employees to come back to wok for him in his original shop. They opened under the name Windham Weaponry.

[SteveHebert]

It has been a few months since posting about a home defense weapon. I have looked at many but have not yet bought one.

 

A friend of mine over here (a real shooter type) turned me on to this:

 

Sig Sauer P516

 

Very small, light weight and in .556. Great for something small in the house and for a backpack bug out gun.

 

I am leaning towards this for sure.

[Mike]

It has been a few months since posting about a home defense weapon. I have looked at many but have not yet bought one.

 

A friend of mine over here (a real shooter type) turned me on to this:

 

Sig Sauer P516

 

Very small, light weight and in .556. Great for something small in the house and for a backpack bug out gun.

 

I am leaning towards this for sure.

 

Steve--

 

I've just ordered a rifle from Windham Weaponry. You should be aware--maybe you already are--that they (and other gun manufacturers) offer discounts for active/retired military members and LEOs. My point of contact at Windham was Todd J. Coons, VP of Law Enforcement Sales (207-893-2223).

 

I narrowed it down to the same two manufacturers you are focusing on, Windham and Sig. If you look long and hard enough, you'll find negative reviews of every manufacturer, but these two get consistently high marks. I found some of the very detailed written and video reviews (on YouTube) very helpful.

 

I am purchasing a CDI model from Windham, which comes very close to having exactly those options that I ultimately wanted to add on to my AR. Of course, they offer a wide range of options, from a very basic gun up to one that's very tricked out. I was initially a little hesitant about Windham since they are very competitive in their pricing. I was concerned that this would be reflected in low quality, but the reviews of their guns are as positive as any I've seen.

 

I don't think you can go wrong with either Sig or Windham. Also, this is not a bad time to buy. A lot of manufacturers were charging exorbitant prices for AR-style guns when there was greater concern about gun bans and they also ramped up production. Right now, it seems that ARs are relatively abundant and prices have come down to sane levels.

[brennaman]

I have a couple sig pistols, and love them. I am getting my son a 522 for his birthday. It is the 22lr version. If I were to buy another ar, it would be the sig. I am sure you will be happy with it.

[SteveHebert]

Thanks for the info Mike. I will give him a call when I get back. I really like the CDI. Prices are bery good. The Sig is pricey but I love how compact it is. Still reading and deciding.

 

Phil you are right about the Sig quality. I have always been impressed with them.