R-Series Spline Failures; BMW's Response (thus far)

[SWB]

Mark Bohn ("mbohn") posted the results of his analysis of apparent spline defects on his own bike. Elsewhere, Peter Akraboff (a.k.a. "peterbulgar") posted the response he received from BMW, which was essentially "BMW is unaware of any cases which have been confirmed as a warrantable repair (a result of a defect in materials or workmanship). To date, we have found the vast majority of these complaints to be attributed to normal wear or external influence, such as misuse or neglect". Steve Foote ("RightSpin") posted a survey here in an attempt to identify some correlation between failures and the manufacturing lineage. The results are posted here.

 

In short, there's been some very good work done here, particularly Mark's work. I thought BMW ought to be aware of the concerns of many owners, and the work ongoing on this forum to actually identify and diagnose a root problem to the failures. My feeling is that the manufacturer would be nuts to ignore these concerns and the beneficial work these owners have done. For the most part, owners here have been been focused on a solution, not ranting about recriminations.

 

Independently, I forwarded an Email to BMW Motorrad Germany, BMW Motorrad USA, and two local dealers service managers who've I'd dealt with previously.

 

First, I received this response from Customer Service, BMW Motorrad USA.

 

"Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding the R-Series splines. We are sorry to read of your disappointment with some of the design features of this model.

 

We appreciate that you took the time to provide us with this feedback. Your comments are important in helping us evaluate the needs and expectations of our valued BMW customers. Please be assured your comments will be forwarded to the appropriate department for review.

 

If you have any further questions, please respond to this e-mail or contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117. Our office hours are Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time. "

 

"Design features" didn't convey an adequate understanding of the problem.

 

Next, Gary Orr, the Service Manager of BMW Brattin Motors contacted me via Email with genuine concerns regarding my own specific bike (2001 R1100RTP). I admitted that I didn't have a problem at the moment, but didn't have the service history on my bike. Gary researched my bike's VIN, and conveyed that there were no powertrain problems with the bike during it's official use. We both agreed that if the bike didn't have spline problems by 55K miles, it probably wasn't going to be impacted by the problem other than through normal attrition.

 

Gary exchanged several courteous, helpful Emails with me. He went one step further. He contacted BMW's Manager of Customer relations to relay my Email and our discussion, and I received a call from the gentleman this morning. In summary, he said:

 

• 
  
• Officially, BMW has seen no significant or unusual problems with the BMW R-Series bikes (my paraphrase)
  
• He contacted BMW Engineers in Germany and the USA, and "flagged the parts" for analysis by the BMW Engineering. He agreed that failure analysis should reveal any unusual pattern of failures, and that the results would be posted in a BMW MLA.
  
• BMW Owners with specific spline problems on their bikes can contact BMW Motorrad USA Customer Relations (800 831-1117) for further assistance.
  

 

This manager did not admit an engineering problem or commit BMW to a specific resolution. He explained that the Germans are very thorough folks, and that it would "probably take a while" before we heard from them. However, I felt that BMW's response was appropriate. What we have been missing from all our discussions have been "facts", and BMW Motorrad has the facts buried in it's logistic's system. The nature of his comments indicated to me that BMW was concerned about this, and would investigate the problem. Perhaps we'll finally get this thing figured out.

 

Gary Orr's responsiveness was outstanding. Kudo's to Brattin Motors.

631901-BMWMOTORRAD.txt

[David]

BMW Owners with specific spline problems on their bikes can contact BMW Motorrad USA Customer Relations (800 831-1117) for further assistance.

 

So they can get a canned reply like the one you got?

 

This manager did not admit an engineering problem or commit BMW to a specific resolution. He explained that the Germans are very thorough folks, and that it would "probably take a while" before we heard from them. However, I felt that BMW's response was appropriate. What we have been missing from all our discussions have been "facts", and BMW Motorrad has the facts buried in it's logistic's system. The nature of his comments indicated to me that BMW was concerned about this, and would investigate the problem.

 

 

Oh, man. I love optimism, but this is sheer skating on the surface of reality. As someone who has dealt with BMW at pretty high levels with a very thorough data collection on the surging issue, color me skeptical.

 

If you want to know what BMW will do with lots of data, go talk to the K bike folks about the FD issues.

 

No, sir, you are wasting your time. I admire your attitude, but I hope you keep your expectations low. Either there's a problem or there isn't, and BMW will do whatever they damn well want to do, and they will not be easily influenced to fix past sins.

[nrp]

Measuring the runout on a disassembled bike shouldn't have to be that big a deal. Mark's method of making a precision crankshaft extension & then measuring multiple clearances to the transmission input bearing with telescoping gages may have fit the measuring equipment he had, but it requires a lot of skill.

 

Looking at his pictures, I think I see a much easier and more precise way of doing this using a different type dial indicator. What I don't know for sure though is if the dial indicator can be swung around inside the disassembled transmission housing.

 

I'm not going to take my 2000 R1100RT apart to make these measurements. What we need is someone with a repetitive spline problem who already has his apart and can't come up with a better solution. With some communication I can make the fixture & I have an indicator that I would be willing to create for someone else willing to be the bad example.

 

This is an offer. No Charge. After all it is winter here in Minnesota & being retired there ain't much else to do.....

 

We need hard data guys.

[Jim Moore]

Gary Orr's responsiveness was outstanding. Kudo's to Brattin Motors.

Gary is one squared-away cat.

[Jim VonBaden]

Don't hold back David, tell us how you really feel?

 

I applaud the guy's willingness to try, even if it does turn out to be futile. At least he is doing more than complaining.

 

Jim

[David]

Don't hold back David, tell us how you really feel?

 

I didn't hold back.

 

I applaud the guy's willingness to try, even if it does turn out to be futile. At least he is doing more than complaining.

 

I'm fine with him trying, too. What I was trying to do was save him some emotional energy. Unlike a lot of other people who talk about these issues, I actually did something by spearheading the collection of hundreds of very specific data points and interacting regularly with BMW, high up. It was a stupid waste of time.

 

To my knowledge, BMW has never (in the last decade) initiated a fix retroactively for a single major known issue. Yeah, little things, but that's it. Nothing on surging, final drives, splines, HES failure propensity, burnt valves, sensitive brakes, etc.

 

I'm not all negative on BMW--I bought another one and love it to death. But let's not put our heads in the sand and think BMW will care at all about the buyers as a whole who've already paid their money.

 

But knock yourselves out.

[DBG]

David

Such optimism! Lets all roll over and just fade away. I don't even have a spline issue with my 03 RT, nor did I have with my 01R, nor my 96GS, but I feel committed to assist othe riders and the only way to do that is make lots of noise. BMW isn't stupid and depends on a good customer base and satisfaction like any other manufacturer. If every one out there that has had these isssues addressed them to the customer service number provided it might make a difference. Certainly voicing your disatisfaction repeatedly on this site ain't gonna do squat. DBG

[David]

Such optimism!

 

Such naiveté!

 

Really, folks. Knock yourselves out. I've gone that route, as have the fine folks over on the LT site.

 

Optimism is either warranted or unfounded, and so far that is zero evidence that it's warranted.

 

My suggestion is to have an open, honest approach to the strengths and weaknesses of the bike you want to ride. Avoid pie in the sky and the alarmism that creeps into a web site like this. Don't whine about something you should have carefully considered before you bought it.

 

Be happy. If you break down, call one of us to help. But don't waste your time with BMW on fixing past issues. It aint' going to happen. (Whining will, however, pressure them to engineer things a tad better in the future.)

[Spike]

Funny thing to me is that I had a spline issue with my '00RT when I had it and they paid to have it fixed!!

 

-- John

[peterbulgar]

Not to make light of what is potentially a very annoying, expensive, and even dangerous issue, but it boils down to this: You are either going to have a problem with your splines, or you are not. Chances are good that you won't. If you do, you will probably have the problem between 20 and 30K miles, although some people with less severe spline issues (whatever they are) may not have a problem until 50K miles. Most of the owners who have posted recently seem to be on '02 or '04 machines - bikes that are just now approaching the 20-30K milestone.

 

My advice is to ride the bike as much as possible so you will reach 30K miles and have some confidence at that point that you are one of the majority without an issue. That's what I intend to do. Of course if I do have a failure out in the middle of Montana, 500 miles from the nearest dealer, you'll read about it here.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA (24K miles)

[David]

Funny thing to me is that I had a spline issue with my '00RT when I had it and they paid to have it fixed!!

 

That's specifically why I qualified my response with the as a group phrase above.

[DogGone]

I think there is zero chance that an unscientific survey will have any effect on bmw. That's not the reason I support the survey.

 

Bmw knows exactly how many failures, of exactly which components have occurred. They have no doubt come to the conclusion that it's in their best business interests to fix them as they fail.

 

This might not be well received, but bmw occupies a niche market, they don't want to sell 100,000 units in the US. They are not going to retool because you are mad and you claim that you'll never buy another bmw if they don't sort this out. There will always be enough people who are only interested in buying the "roundel".

 

Bmw is not in the business of making motorcycles, they, and every other company on earth are in the business of making money. This is a purely financial decision. They don't WANT anything bad to happen with your bike, but they really don't care if you'll never buy another. Don't take it personal, it's just business.

 

So, why conduct the survey? To provide some cold hard data to us. I crunched the data from Rightspin's original survey and came to my own conclusions. Rather than hysteria and anecdotes, let's see the numbers.

 

don...er...i mean, pete

[mountainred]

I believe they know there is a problem and they will fix them as they break as long as it is in the warranty period. I was talking to a bmw tech and he stated that they have done 3 spline repairs since his employment (10 years) and they replaced the front transmission cover each time. this would indicate to me that they had prior knowledge that something may be out of alignment. My 2001 bike has about 27000 miles on it. I have not rode it 2 feet since I bought it. I purchased it a few days after surgery (3 weeks ago) and could only watch the mechanic ride it around the parking lot. They do a safety check on the bikes but if it breaks, Im on my own. At least from the posts of others on this site, I will be able to know what to look for and do the job right the first time.

[RFW]

Something to remember about manufacturers in general, and German ones in particular, is that they will NEVER admit to any problems at all, until there is a fix available.

 

Years ago in a company that imported Dual turntables, we were faced with this. In spite of some obvious problems at times, they never let the cat out of the bag until the "non-existant!) problem was diagnosed and a solution was available. Only then was it admitted there was a problem.

 

Bob.

[jackflash]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance.

 

When the company I run makes a mistake, we make good on it, every time, for every customer. We're in business to sell our products by making customers happy...unlike the arrogant BMW bastards.

 

Sorry to beat around the bush.

[nrp]

No takers on my offer yet. Is there anyone out there with a bike & transmission apart with spline problems?

 

Maybe premature spline failure is more rare than I thought.

[Jim VonBaden]

Maybe it is time to remove the BMW part of the title of this forum? Seems like it is always a popular thing here to bash BMW, and even the owner of the forum does it.

 

Maybe simply calling it SportTouring would be more appropriate?

 

Just a thought.

 

Jim

[David]

Maybe it is time to remove the BMW part of the title of this forum? Seems like it is always a popular thing here to bash BMW, and even the owner of the forum does it.

 

Maybe simply calling it SportTouring would be more appropriate?

 

Just a thought.

 

Excellent idea, Jim, but only a king should make such a change, and I'm far from it.

 

But back to the point. Do you have a specific comment about the data, or are you just trying to make a point? You might benefit from rereading my posts here, too, as I've specifically said that I love BMWs and that there should be no whining. My comments are about BMW as a company--not their products. Try again.

[DouglasR]

I can't sleep nights anymore. I've got a 1997 R1100RT with 36,000 miles on it and a 2001 R1150GS with 21,000 miles.... I'm DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!

 

Just kidding. I've been around machinery long enough to know sometimes they'll have problems. The BMWs I own (and my friends own) are wonderful machines that have brought me much pleasure over the years, and I strongly suspect they'll continue to run just fine for years into the future. I've read all the horror stories, I've had a few issues myself (bearings, crown seals, etc.) but ya know, I've had troubles with other machinery too. These are complex machines built to exacting tolerances by HUMANS. They are not perfect, and some are better or worse than others. Ride the bike; if it breaks fix it. If it's a manufacturing problem, hit the dealer and BMW for a fix.

 

Speaking of fix, I think way too many folks are fixated on this issue when they should be out racking up miles and enjoying themselves. I've owned probably 40 bikes in my life and none of them came close to the Beemers. I have a K75 that is the most amazing machine I've ever been around. I love them all, in spite of their weaknesses and issues, kinda like people.....

[Ralph]

Well, my opinion now. As just a plain old rider, this is my first BMW. And I must say, I love it. It does just what I want. Yes, I had the spline thing and yes BMW fixed it under warranty ( the shop had allot to do with that by coming to my rescue)and I did buy an extended warranty since i believe I may have the same problem later on, but again, the bike does just what I want it to do. BMW like Harley, like most all other bike manufactures are not going to admit themselves into a law suit. Thats just how it is. Live with it, or don't ride one. It is just that simple. Harley pissed me off, so i moved on. If BMW does the same, I'll do the same also. My next bike will be a few years down the road, so we'll see. In the mean time I'll just hope the bike gives me no other problems. So far, so good!

[JamesW]

Hey Douglas from Wyoming, You da man as in ride and enjoy

[DouglasR]

Hey Douglas from Wyoming, You da man as in ride and enjoy

 

 

I have this on-going argument with a friend about whether bikes are toys or tools. He says "Tools, I own them (an RT and now a Cagiva Gran Canyon) to commute on". He's delusional and I'm working on his attitude. I say toys - their primary purpose in my life is to take me places and do things in a way that brings me pleasure and offers a nice break from the normal hum-drum BS that's all around us every day. I like to play with my toys, and sometimes they break and I have to fix them. Except for the K75, it's bulletproof I think.

 

Not shown is another KLR (650) that my step-son rides, also a toy that gets busted sometimes and needs attention. Ever adjusted the valves on a KLR? You pretty much have to dismantle the damned thing, but it's kinda fun! Better than watching TV. I spent an afternoon up in the deep stix above my home rewiring the rear end of my DR650 because the taillight busted off and tore the wiring all to hell and shorted it out. I had a blast! The K75 lives in North Dakota with my college-senior son now, he adores that machine. Total PITA to do a brake bleed on, but ya know, it's kinda fun! Here it is after a tune-up on a shake-down ride up the hills by my house, 1994 vintage with 55,000 miles and purrs like a kitten:

 

 

If you take good care of them they'll last a long long time, like my friend David's old gizmo; he rides this thing EVERYWHERE and also owns an oilhead RT and GS:

 

 

 

Another friend has a 1984 R100RT that he bought new for himself, "to me, from me, with love" as a college graduation gift. Sure he's had issues over the years with it, but he loves it and enjoys maintaining it and rides the hell out of it without worries.

 

My point is, everything needs maintenance and some stuff is built better than others. My skis need maintenance, the car and truck need it, my bicycles like attention now and then, even my damned fishing pole demands something of me now and then. The BMWs are the best machines I've ever owned, and I ride them a bunch and really like them. Go ride the darned thing!

 

[RFW]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance

That is the sort of erronious comment made by those who have never been immersed in German culture. I have.

 

DO NOT confuse "arrogance" with cultural differences. Just because Germans don't gush all over you, and it is their custom to get all the facts straight, and initiate a solution before opening their mouths, doesn't mean they are arrogant!

 

Such a statement is as bad as how some Germans think that because they are too quick to be "friendly", Americans are somehow "shallow". Both of these statements are false.

 

Bob.

[eakins]

 

I'm fine with him trying, too. What I was trying to do was save him some emotional energy. Unlike a lot of other people who talk about these issues, I actually did something by spearheading the collection of hundreds of very specific data points and interacting regularly with BMW, high up. It was a stupid waste of time.

 

To my knowledge, BMW has never (in the last decade) initiated a fix retroactively for a single major known issue. Yeah, little things, but that's it. Nothing on surging, final drives, splines, HES failure propensity, burnt valves, sensitive brakes, etc.

 

I'm not all negative on BMW--I bought another one and love it to death. But let's not put our heads in the sand and think BMW will care at all about the buyers as a whole who've already paid their money.

 

But knock yourselves out.

that sure sums up bmw very well and possibly the reason i'm jumping ship. i can't stand for not accepting responsibility!

[eakins]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance.

 

When the company I run makes a mistake, we make good on it, every time, for every customer. We're in business to sell our products by making customers happy...unlike the arrogant BMW bastards.

 

Sorry to beat around the bush.

i also run my own biz and i operate the exact same way! it's the only way to be successful. guess when a company gets large enough, they can make up new rules. don't think bmw is there on the mc side and hence existing base doesn't expand as much as new converts. as long as sales and market share are up everything is a-ok to them. kinda sad, but true. now toyota comes to my mind. they've had mfg problems in the past and quickly admidted it, fixed it and moved on. there market share is rocketing forward and have a great reputation with the average consumer. been trying to think you the mc equiv. of toyota???

 

[DogGone]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance.

 

When the company I run makes a mistake, we make good on it, every time, for every customer. We're in business to sell our products by making customers happy...unlike the arrogant BMW bastards.

 

Sorry to beat around the bush.

i also run my own biz and i operate the exact same way! it's the only way to be successful. guess when a company gets large enough, they can make up new rules. don't think bmw is there on the mc side and hence existing base doesn't expand as much as new converts. as long as sales and market share are up everything is a-ok to them. kinda sad, but true. now toyota comes to my mind. they've had mfg problems in the past and quickly admidted it, fixed it and moved on. there market share is rocketing forward and have a great reputation with the average consumer. been trying to think you the mc equiv. of toyota???

 

You guys are correct, IF the company in question is going for market share. I think that is mostly an American philosophy. That market share is the ultimate goal.

 

BMW is a "boutique" brand. They don't have to please 40% of Americsns because they aren't trying to sell bikes to 40% of Americans.

 

What did they do last year? 15,000 units? What is that, one for every 20,000 Americans?

 

pete

[steve.foote]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance

That is the sort of erronious comment made by those who have never been immersed in German culture. I have.

 

DO NOT confuse "arrogance" with cultural differences. Just because Germans don't gush all over you, and it is their custom to get all the facts straight, and initiate a solution before opening their mouths, doesn't mean they are arrogant!

 

Such a statement is as bad as how some Germans think that because they are too quick to be "friendly", Americans are somehow "shallow". Both of these statements are false.

 

Bob.

 

Bob, I have to agree with you on this. I know a German well and once lived there for 6 1/2 years. Arrogance is not a word I would attribute to Germans.

 

However, "stubborn" fits like a glove.

[randys]

I don't even have a spline issue with my 03 RT, nor did I have with my 01R, nor my 96GS,

 

Just a thought, is it possible that stirring the pot about a problem you dont have and have never had, could cause BMW to close their ears just a bit more??

[RFW]

Bob, I have to agree with you on this. I know a German well and once lived there for 6 1/2 years. Arrogance is not a word I would attribute to Germans.

 

However, "stubborn" fits like a glove.

In my experience, "stubborn" often fitted, but maybe "Pedantic" is a better general description. Mind you, of all the areas of Germany, those in Bavaria (and in particular, Munich) are the most outgoing and least afflicted with the above. Mind you, the BMW bike division is largely located in Spandau (Berlin), and people there are definitely less outgoing than the "jolly" Bavarians!

 

My main point in all this was simply to try to make those who have never been anywere, to think twice and realize that the way they view something is not necessarily how the rest of the world does. The rest of the world is not a mirror reflection of North America!

 

Historically, BMW has bent over backwards to fix problems when they became statistically significant. You have to look no further than a year or so ago when they yanked ALL K1200S bikes off the market when it became clear that there were camshaft problems. This cost them a lot of money and embarrassment, but they acted as soon as it became clear that action was needed.

 

The R-Bike spline problem is a little less straightforward statistically. But you can bet the house that they are not just sitting there ignoring it. But like any manufacturer, they need to accumulate enough evidence worldwide that this is in fact a problem, and not a series of random events.

 

Bob.

[bmweerman]

I don't even have a spline issue with my 03 RT, nor did I have with my 01R, nor my 96GS,

 

Just a thought, is it possible that stirring the pot about a problem you dont have and have never had, could cause BMW to close their ears just a bit more??

 

I agree with that!!

 

Also I think the point that is being overlooked is...we are talking about a small number of bikes and talking about them to death.

 

What about the bikes out there that run forever without any trouble?

 

My $.02

 

Cameron

[GlennW]

Anyone who has experienced spline failure has a right to be upset, but I would caution against thinking the grass will be greener with other manufacturers. Visit a handfull of owner's group websites and you'll see the same arguments. Every group I'm a member of has stories of design flaws and uncaring corporations: Kawasaki ZRXs with crooked frames and faulty cooling fan mounts; Harleys with easilly picked ignition locks; Honda Accords with faulty transmissions; Honda CR-Vs with faulty differentials. In most cases, the manufacturers analyzed the problems and either chose to fix them on a case-by-case basis under warranty(if you're lucky), or (in the cases of Kawasaki and Harley) denied the problem exists.

 

BMW motorcycles are not perfect, but I've found that neither were any of the dozen or so bikes I've owned. As a manufacturer, BMW is no different from the other marques. Unless the NTSB mandates a recall (for safety reasons), don't expect BMW to volunteer one. The costs of a major recall can kill the profit margin for an entire year. Profits which the guys at BMW have been using to design new models these last few years.

 

The moral of this rant is ENJOY YOUR BIKE. Don't worry about possible failures. Chances are the bike will be fine.

 

GW

[outpost22]

Just a real amateur question here.

 

It seems like the misalignment theory is the believed root cause of the spline failures. It makes sense. My question would be has anyone looked at the metalurgy of the failed splines/shafts as a possible culprit? Are some splines/shafts just weak?

 

Just curious.

[peterbulgar]

This issue has been kicked around for some time. Early on the assumption was that inadequate lubrication was the root cause, perhaps because earlier spline problems on the K75 and GS driveshafts had been linked to poor lubrication. Another theory was that the original lubricant was of poor quality - not "sticky" enough. Someone posted that he'd heard that a bad batch of input shaft splines (inadequate heat treatment) was behind the problems. The misalignment theory has been around for at least a year, and seems to have the most staying power. The Feb/March issue of OTL, the magazine of the BMW Riders Association, had an article about input shaft spline failures by Anton Largiader, long time BMW tech, and owner of an independent BMW shop in Charlottsville, VA. Good article, not available online as far as I can tell.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[peterbulgar]

That would be Feb/March 2005 issue of OTL.

peter

[jackflash]

Geez Louise! It's threads like this that make me wonder why we buy BMW's. I really think the root cause of the problem is simple German arrogance

That is the sort of erronious comment made by those who have never been immersed in German culture. I have.

 

DO NOT confuse "arrogance" with cultural differences. Just because Germans don't gush all over you, and it is their custom to get all the facts straight, and initiate a solution before opening their mouths, doesn't mean they are arrogant!

 

Such a statement is as bad as how some Germans think that because they are too quick to be "friendly", Americans are somehow "shallow". Both of these statements are false.

 

Bob.

 

OK, I'll call them Germans. That will suffice and still make the point very well. I know the culture quite well also.

[SWB]

I guess I'm as pessimistic as the next guy that after 10+ model years of R11xx bikes, BMW will finally get around to "noticing" the problem and identifying a cause. I didn't really intend this thread to kick around all the old arguments on countless threads once again, let alone become a "Bash BMW" thread, but I thought BMW's reply was worth noting.

 

I invited BMW to join into Mark Bohn's thread, research the issue, and get involved with fact-finding and a solution. The results may not be what we'd like to see, e.g. something like "less than 1/10th of 1% of all R11xx Series bikes have experienced a spline problem, the causes may be varied, and such occurrences are within norms...etc.", but we may all know more than we do now. More optimistically, BMW may develop a cause/effect and diagnostic process for the problem, and provide financial help to owners with bikes determined to be impacted by a manufacturing defect (if that's what it is).

 

As far as I'm concerned, regardless if it takes "German engineers a long time to study things like this..", a stop watch has been engaged. If BMW fails to adequately respond with some facts in a timely manner (though not necessarily a recall), this weakness in the R-Series bikes will cost BMW future sales - guaranteed. You don't think that this kind of information will filter out to competitors, and that smart salesmen with competing products won't be saying to their customers something like "Well, yeah, those BMW's do have a really great history of reliability, but they're REAL EXPENSIVE, and lately, kind of a 'dirty little secret' has gotten out about their drive train problems ..."?

 

And, from the antidotal evidence I've read on this site and others, it's a fairly well established case. A part with no prescribed maintenance schedule (other than lubrication during time of disassembly for such routine maintenance as clutch replacement) catastrophically fails early in the bike's lifecycle, and this has occurred in dozens of cases. BMW can work with dedicated owners to address the issue, or not.

 

As of this thread, we can say:

 

* BMW has definitely been notified of the problem, and that there's a significant concern among "many" owners, not just those who've had a problem with their motorcycle;

* BMW has pledged to look at the problem from a logistical perspective (i.e. incidence of occurrance);

* BMW's Engineers have an obligation to respond with some technical and statistical facts.

* The ball is in BMW Motorrad's court.

[AnRSguy]

You guys are correct, IF the company in question is going for market share. I think that is mostly an American philosophy. That market share is the ultimate goal.

 

 

I work for a Japanese company (Olympus) and have for 26 years, it is their philosophy too. They believe that if they acheive the correct market share their factories will be a maximun production and all will be right.

 

As far as BMW is concerned, one point that I have not seen discussed is that if BMW admits there is a problem, there will have be a MASS inspection of all the bikes, which they will have to cover, this will clog up the entire dealer network when all these bikes come in to be checked. By dealing with it on a case by case basis, which appears to be their approach, and taking care of bikes that exhibit the problem it is far less expensive and a better business decision.

 

A redesign of the affected parts is another story, a good company WILL redesign those parts to allieviate future problems.

 

Just my two cents worth and I have a pocket full of pennies.

 

Bryant

[Paul Mihalka]

Don't expect any manufacturer to spend time and money (time IS money) to study a problem on a discontinued and replaced product.

[SWB]

As far as BMW is concerned, one point that I have not seen discussed is that if BMW admits there is a problem, there will have be a MASS inspection of all the bikes, which they will have to cover, this will clog up the entire dealer network when all these bikes come in to be checked.

 

Some have mentioned this, but I question that assumption. Absent a safety issue, and given a very small percentage of the bikes have the problem, there would be no reason for a complete recall and inspection (with the attendant negative publicity a recall would create).

 

On the other hand, the potential defect could be acknowledged, and "free" inspection (i.e. an engineering inspection using Mark Bohn's type of tool) could be prescribed every time the bike is apart down to the clutch during regular maintenance and repair. Assuming Mark Bohn has the tiger by it's tail (re; "smoking gun" thread), and there is an alignment problem, BMW could create the tools and procedures to check for the problem. If you pull in with a bike with wiped splines or for a new clutch, the same procedure of inspection occurs. If the diagnosis is "defective", a new transmission or engine housing or whatever is required is provided by BMW. If not, you pay the bill. It's as simple as that.

 

REAL success is realized when BMW states "the manufacturing problem was identified with the R11xx line, and has been rectified in the R1200 model line..". Owners would be a lot less afraid of buying a R11xx model, so those owners "stuck" with one can unload it at improved resale value, and put those dollars into the R1200xx of their dreams. New buyers in the market for a R1200xx will purchase with confidence.

 

The German engineers and bean counters may grumble a bit, but the Marketers and dealers around the world will be toasting them with champagne (rather than on a spit).

 

Don't expect any manufacturer to spend time and money (time IS money) to study a problem on a discontinued and replaced product.

 

.... unless they want to sell more of a similar product. Audi "discontinued" building it's Audi 5000 after owners lost 90% of their investment in less than 3 years, and it nearly took the company under. There was NO TECHNICAL PROBLEM WITH THE AUDI, but it still almost took that company under. I'll still never own another Audi, even though my stick shift Audi 5000 (the "problem" occurred with the automatic trans, but it didn't matter) was the nicest car I've ever owned. The $15,000 I lost in 1987 still stings too much.

 

Here's a question: Some have mentioned that BMW motorcycles don't seem to retain their resale value. Is this a recent phenomenon? I wonder why?

[russell_bynum]

On the other hand, the potential defect could be acknowledged, and "free" inspection (i.e. an engineering inspection using Mark Bohn's type of tool) could be prescribed every time the bike is apart down to the clutch during regular maintenance and repair.

 

Anyone with a real alignment problem will have a spline failure long before the clutch goes out....and there's no other "regular maintenance" that would have the bike dissasembled that far. For that matter, even with the bike dissasembled for a clutch job, you still have to split the transmission case. I'm not sure what the labor on that is, but I'd guess you're looking at at least another couple of hours. Then you've got to get the tool installed, do the test, record the results (maybe another hour or so) then put the whole thing back together. And if it needs realignment, then you've got a dissasembled bike in the "stink bug" position taking up a lift in your shop. Then...you get the machined inserts back from the shop, install them, do the test again, and if it's fixed, put it all back together. I don't see this happening for less than 8 hours of labor over and above the 8 hours that it takes to do the clutch.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just never going to happen. I think all we can hope for is for BMW to fix the problem in future models, and best-case, they pay to fix the failures of the existing out-of-warranty bikes.

[Jim VonBaden]

Maybe it is time to remove the BMW part of the title of this forum? Seems like it is always a popular thing here to bash BMW, and even the owner of the forum does it.

 

Maybe simply calling it SportTouring would be more appropriate?

 

Just a thought.

 

Excellent idea, Jim, but only a king should make such a change, and I'm far from it.

 

But back to the point. Do you have a specific comment about the data, or are you just trying to make a point? You might benefit from rereading my posts here, too, as I've specifically said that I love BMWs and that there should be no whining. My comments are about BMW as a company--not their products. Try again.

 

I guess I did miss your specific comments on the data. All I heard was you complaining about the company and how the guy was wasting his time.

 

I appologize to the "King"!

 

Still, I stand by my suggestion. I am sure most, especially judging by how many say they will not buy BMW again, would be more than happy to drop that sorry company name from the forum!

 

Jim

[AnRSguy]

On the other hand, the potential defect could be acknowledged, and "free" inspection (i.e. an engineering inspection using Mark Bohn's type of tool) could be prescribed every time the bike is apart down to the clutch during regular maintenance and repair.

 

Anyone with a real alignment problem will have a spline failure long before the clutch goes out....and there's no other "regular maintenance" that would have the bike dissasembled that far. For that matter, even with the bike dissasembled for a clutch job, you still have to split the transmission case. I'm not sure what the labor on that is, but I'd guess you're looking at at least another couple of hours. Then you've got to get the tool installed, do the test, record the results (maybe another hour or so) then put the whole thing back together. And if it needs realignment, then you've got a dissasembled bike in the "stink bug" position taking up a lift in your shop. Then...you get the machined inserts back from the shop, install them, do the test again, and if it's fixed, put it all back together. I don't see this happening for less than 8 hours of labor over and above the 8 hours that it takes to do the clutch.

 

I'm sorry, but that's just never going to happen. I think all we can hope for is for BMW to fix the problem in future models, and best-case, they pay to fix the failures of the existing out-of-warranty bikes.

 

My point exactly. If BMW admitted this problem, the parking lots of every dealer on the planet would be overflowing with R bikes demanding that theirs be inspected. It would be a disaster. As long as BMW fixes problems when they occur, in or out of warranty, it is the correct busniess decision. If it were a rampant problem, 10 - 15% of bikes on the road, that's a different situation.

 

Bryant

[Shawnee Bill]

Still, I stand by my suggestion. I am sure most, especially judging by how many say they will not buy BMW again, would be more than happy to drop that sorry company name from the forum!

 

Jim

 

Tempting to start another thread but I really don't want to see a thread voting on dropping the BMW from our name. Especially since the King has spoken

 

I disagree strongly with your premise that "most" would be more than happy to drop that name. I went back and counted the responses to the "would you buy again" question and it was overwhelming yes, almost as many non answers and only 3 no.

I'll admit that when I first read through that thread I was left with the impression that many would not buy again, but then I counted. I think because the negatives were so negative that they made more impression than the positives. The large number of maybe/maybe not flavors a first impression as to the consensus but a lot of those were more positive than negative.

Don't want to stir anything up, just an observation.

[Jim VonBaden]

Still, I stand by my suggestion. I am sure most, especially judging by how many say they will not buy BMW again, would be more than happy to drop that sorry company name from the forum!

 

Jim

 

Tempting to start another thread but I really don't want to see a thread voting on dropping the BMW from our name. Especially since the King has spoken

 

I disagree strongly with your premise that "most" would be more than happy to drop that name. I went back and counted the responses to the "would you buy again" question and it was overwhelming yes, almost as many non answers and only 3 no.

I'll admit that when I first read through that thread I was left with the impression that many would not buy again, but then I counted. I think because the negatives were so negative that they made more impression than the positives. The large number of maybe/maybe not flavors a first impression as to the consensus but a lot of those were more positive than negative.

Don't want to stir anything up, just an observation.

 

I just reread that thread as well, and while you are technically correct, MOST said they wouldn't buy new, mainly for price. Only a few admitted to wanting to buy new. Obviously this wont keep BMW in business, but that isn't the point. Many wouldn't be unhappy at all if BMW was removed as the central theme of the forum, and so many own other bikes that the "BMWCentric" nature of this forum is rapidly dying anyhow. There is a prescidence for this when the forum was changed from an RTCentric forum to BMWST to include all BMWs.

 

Were it not for the influx of new BMW owners, this forum would not be BMWCentric at all. Many of the current "experienced" members of the forum have long ago moved on to other brands, or will on their next purchase.

 

I have no problem with this, I just think it is time to call a spade a spade and move on. Then again, what I think makes little difference, which is as it should be. It is up to the King to decide.

 

Jim

[mbohn]

Anyone with a real alignment problem will have a spline failure long before the clutch goes out....

Russell:

Generally I agree but take a look at this photo. This is what a misaligned engine/gearbox can do to a clutch disk in 700 miles..(attachment)

[BucksTherapy]

[quote

Generally I agree but take a look at this photo. This is what a misaligned engine/gearbox can do to a clutch disk in 700 miles..

 

Folks, I am going through a spline failure and took the clutch and tranny to a machine shop for an opinion of what was happening. I am researching what to replace or not replace in my 02RT. Do I replace the clutch housing, transmission cover, complete transmission?????

 

The machine shop says the wear pattern might be from misalignment but it is more likely the shaft is too soft a metal for the job. They indicate the pattern suggests significant deflection of the veins of both splines. There can be deflection but not to the degree indicated by the pattern.

 

Secondly, they indicated the clutch should be engineered to be sacrificial. It should be made of a softer metal then the input shaft so it wears away disproportionately faster then the input shaft.

 

I am not arguing with those that have developed ways of measuring the run out and have measured a misalignment but it might be possible that there are multiple factors at play. One or both might be in play on any given bike.

 

I have asked BMW for help and so far they are still talking to me.

 

I had this bike apart at 16k miles and lubed the splines with Honda Moly 60. There were early signs of wear but not enough to become alarmed. The bike has 25k miles and in my opinion should not have hard parts failing this early.

 

One peice of advice I can offer is pull the tranny early and add lube, mine was dry at 16k miles. I would add that if there is any sign of wear I would insist BMW fix it while still under warranty.

 

I'll let you know how BMW responds.

[SWB]

Do I replace the clutch housing, transmission cover, complete transmission?????

 

Sorry for your troubles. There's no consensus as to the cause or solution from the owners, let alone, BMW.

The machine shop says the wear pattern might be from misalignment but it is more likely the shaft is too soft a metal for the job. They indicate the pattern suggests significant deflection of the veins of both splines. There can be deflection but not to the degree indicated by the pattern.

 

Secondly, they indicated the clutch should be engineered to be sacrificial. It should be made of a softer metal then the input shaft so it wears away disproportionately faster then the input shaft.

 

Sounds like a job for a metallurigist, or a failure analysis engineer. We'll never know for sure unless someone pays for the analysis. BMW probably knows, but won't tell. Unfortunately, either option sounds a lot more expensive than just fixing the bike, selling it, and then buying a new Honda ST1300.

 

I am not arguing with those that have developed ways of measuring the run out and have measured a misalignment but it might be possible that there are multiple factors at play. One or both might be in play on any given bike.

 

Absolutely! But again, absent a lot of expensive failure-analysis engineering, how would we ever know? I highly doubt that there is a systemic metallurgy problem with the materials for the shaft, splines, or clutch components, or we'd see more failures sooner. The fact that the problem is rare (if annoying and expensive), but of a higher incidence than many expect, is the reason some are speculating that the failure is a manufacturing process problem.

 

Mark Bohn has absolutely, positively identified an alignment problem with his bike, and has provided a means for duplicating his analysis. If you run the same test with the same results, then you may have identified the problem with your bike. Other factors may be a consideration in the case of both bikes. If I were in your shoes, I'd check the alignment per Mark's specs. (Take a look at all his attachments, including his video of the dial-indicator variances on the clutch wheel.)

 

I have asked BMW for help and so far they are still talking to me.

 

If you don't get satisfactory support, I'd ask to speak with the Manager of Customer Relations, BMW Motorrad, USA, at 800 831-1117. (Yes, I know you're in Canada, but call him anyway.) He asked me not to publish his name and extension, because he has a large staff which should be fielding the service desk calls, and I oblidged. However, if BMW isn't making the right noises, call him and reference this thread, Mark Bohn's thread, and my own call with him.

 

One piece of advice I can offer is pull the tranny early and add lube, mine was dry at 16k miles. I would add that if there is any sign of wear I would insist BMW fix it while still under warranty.

 

BMW's policy, and echoed by the Branttin service manager that there is no service procedure for a spline lub. It might be a nice idea, but I doubt it'll make a difference. You can put enough lub on those splines to make the clutch friction disk frictionless, and if there's an alignment problem, your tranny will chew up the splines and spit them out all over the roadway anyhow. Gary did point out that during ANY maintenance procedure that goes into that area of the bike (e.g. clutch replacement), proper maintenance procedures would dictate inspection and lube of the splines. But I doubt even BMW projects a 25K clutch life on the R-Series bikes. Hmmmm..maybe we're all babying our clutches too much, and should be burning 'em up sooner.

 

(Not to make light of your situation, but sometimes it's better to laugh than cry.)

[mountainred]

A experianced machinest can use a tool( rockwell hardness guage) to make a simple test on the shaft hardness. I suspect that some are not hardened to specs or the alloy used is not capable of been hardened and all of the shafts are soft unlike the gears. This would make alignment very critical. When mine comes out, this will be a priority, it might even be cost effective to have a good machinest fab a shaft out of a alloy that can be made harder than the clutch disc.

[russell_bynum]

Anyone with a real alignment problem will have a spline failure long before the clutch goes out....

Russell:

Generally I agree but take a look at this photo. This is what a misaligned engine/gearbox can do to a clutch disk in 700 miles..(attachment)

 

Yeah...I meant the splines would fail before the friction material in the clutch wore out.

 

SWB had suggested that BMW offer a free inspection of the allignment of the shaft/splines/etc anytime the bike is apart for routine service. My point was that the only "routine" reason the bike would be apart down to the clutch would be if the clutch friction material wore out. And people like you who have serious allignment problems would experience a spline failure long before the clutch wore out.

[nrp]

It isn't practical to have just any machine shop make a new input shaft. Cutting a spline is a major machining deal & would be hideously expensive to do on a one-piece basis. (Just bend over....)

 

You can get an idea of hardness by trying to cut the old parts with a file. Generally you should just barely be able to touch it.

 

Since you all (i. e. several people looking at failures) have your transmissions apart for these debacles, you should measure the transmission input bearing housing bore run out with respect to the crankshaft.

 

I have a proposed measuring scheme prepared in a Word document, but I don't know how to load it into this site. Guess I gotta get my kid to do it......

 

If you want it in an unfinished state, e-mail me at daneth1@earthlink.net

 

I'd like comments if nothing else.