Consumer Reports Brand Reliability

[Twisties]

The article is behind a paywall, so I'll just summarize a few key points:

 

CR's first ever moto brand reliability study. Based on survey of CR subscribers. 4680 bikes bought new between 2009 and 2012. 4% margin of error.

 

Major repairs reported by brand(%):

 

Yamaha 11

Kawasaki 13

Honda 14

Harley-Davidson 24

BMW 30

 

Statistically significant numbers for Triumph and Suzuki were not available, but data "suggest" that Triumph is up there with BMW and Suzuki is down there with the other Japanese brands.

 

They also observed that touring bikes are more problematic than others: Tourers>Dual Sport>Sport Touring>Cruisers. Suggestion that sport bikes are similar to cruisers.

 

 

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Did they account for mileage somehow? Or does this survey include everything from garage queens to IBA competitors?

[dJames]

Am I reading this correct? 30% of BMW motorcycles needed major repair? That BMW ranked below Harley Davidson? That is really disappointing.

...

[baggerchris]

I have always found my Honda's to be much better in the reliability area than either my Harley's or Beemers, but I still, to this day, find the Honda's just a little mundane and boring.

That's why I don't own one today other than a very sweet Trail 90.

 

I put Jeeps and original Land Cruisers in the same catagory as Harley's and others. Consumer Reports always dings them but I have always found them facinating, and thats why I have owned several with no regrets.

[Twisties]

Did they account for mileage somehow? Or does this survey include everything from garage queens to IBA competitors?

 

That was my first response/question too, Mitch. I didn't see any mention of mileage in the piece and I suspect that they did not.

[Twisties]

Am I reading this correct? 30% of BMW motorcycles needed major repair? That BMW ranked below Harley Davidson? That is really disappointing.

...

 

That is what they said, but when they list the types of problems, it wasn't so much engine or tranny rebuilds as electrical, lighting, clutch, and fueling sorts of things. Average down time was a few days and repair costs averaged around $200 IIRC. So, I wonder how they defined "major"?

[moshe_levy]

Thus the problem with all such surveys. They are not apples to apples. A Porsche 911 driver who flogs his car on the track and racks up 30,000 miles a year is on the same plane as a senior who drives his LaSabre ever so gently to the supermarket each weekend for 5,000 miles a year. Which do you THINK is going to report more problems?

 

-MKL

[sardineone]

I'm with Moshe on his take on the subject, because I've been there. At the tail end of my hard riding youth in my younger 30's, I owned my least reliable bike out of all I've ridden the last 45 years. A HONDA! My BMW has had only a easy to replace rear end seal to replace and that's with 2 to 3 times the miles that many of my other bikes. I've owned 5 Suzukis, a Yamaha, a Kawasaki, a Bultaco, a Norton, a Moto Guzzi, 2 modern Triumphs, and my 1st BMW. My BMW is a good enough bike to fix if the unfortunate day arrives!

[smiller]

And yet I think we all know deep down inside that there's probably some truth to the rating. I mean, how many of us bought BMW motorcycles considering 'reliability' as a primary attribute?

[Marty Hill]

I must be nuts because I've never bought anything thinking about reliability. I want fun/something to admire and want to be able to get somewhere quickly and comfortably.

[eddd]

I must be nuts because I've never bought anything thinking about reliability. I want fun/something to admire and want to be able to get somewhere quickly and comfortably.

 

 

You're not going to get anywhere quickly and comfortably if you have a failure that disables the bike.

 

Three of my four bikes were purchased with reliability being a primary consideration. I need to feel confident that my touring bike will not leave me stranded. While this type of failure would seldom threaten life or limb, it is a huge inconvenience and likely to be expensive. On my two dual sports, reliability can be a matter of life or death, like experiencing a bike-stopping failure at 12,000 feet 20 miles from a highway. When I decided on my DR650 and my XL250R I was after basic, low-tech, proven designs. The bikes are not flashy, fast, or visually exciting, but they are reliable.

 

I will admit that, while my Ducati 695 Monster had good reviews, I wanted it for its looks, sound, and fun factor.

[Twisties]

I must be nuts because I've never bought anything thinking about reliability. I want fun/something to admire and want to be able to get somewhere quickly and comfortably.

 

I agree with Seth, you can pick away at this, but with differences that large, and no evidence to suggest that BMWs are ridden any harder than any other brand, I think we have to know that it considerably is less reliable than the Japanese marques. What you said, Marty, is why they remain in business despite miserable reliability performance. In fact, they may very well feel that they can get away with it so long as they deliver on the aesthetic, features and design performance criteria.

[na1g]

I'd have to believe that mileage was not considered. The Consumer Reports numbers are just raw numbers. As a broad generalization, I would say that BMWs routinely rack up much greater distances than any of the other brands. Folks who own a CBR600 aren't putting 20K a year on them and I'll bet there aren't many HD owners doing that kind of distance either. BMW riders just ride more. But having said that, I'd not put BMW at or near the top of the reliability chart anyway.

 

I was disappointed in Consumer Reports for publishing this article. Seems not up to their usual professional level.

 

pete

[Marty Hill]

Well Ed, we have different goals. I don't sweat the small stuff and as you know I haven't had any problems. I bought 8 out of 10 planes that I owned without a test flight and never had problems there either.

 

I've been in situations that make all of this seem rather trivial.

[Mike]

I've been in situations that make all of this seem rather trivial.

 

You know, I completely get that.

[Urban Surfer]

I believe that the numbers do make sense.

This is my second BMW motorcycle and the last one was a lot of money to ride considering all the money I spent on repairs.

I couldn't find a motorcycle that I'd like to ride more, so after I sold the last on bought a newer faster one.

And what a hoot it is.

Also, if you look at the reliability of other high end vehicles,such as Jaguar and Ferrari, you will probably find similar numbers.

[ElevenFifty]

Here are the numbers I believe

... 146,000 miles and not 1 worry that I would get home ... I didn't buy the RT for reliability but that is what I got.

 

 

 

 

[Ponch]

The truth hurts.

[Twisties]

As a broad generalization, I would say that BMWs routinely rack up much greater distances than any of the other brands.

 

I don't know that I would agree with that. I've put plenty of miles on my Super Tenere, and FJR riders ride like RT riders do. Plenty of Super Teneres north of 100k miles now, two and a half years since North America introduction. Certainly plenty of FJRs in the high mileage range. BMW also sells sport bikes that probobly don't see high miles. It is not uncommon to see a low mile BMW in the classifieds.

 

I thought it was very telling that the reliability by bike type went in the order it did. If most BMWs are sport tourers (RT, K-GTs, and sport tourers are relatively reliable, then it seems to me to make BMW stand out even worse.

 

Of course, looking at it the other way, dual sports were worse than sport tourers... that could reflect that BMW still dominates that market, or it could reflect that the dual sport market pulls down BMW's numbers... we have no evidence to go on there.

[tallman]

The truth hurts.

 

And yet, when I cited Consumer Reports wrt the new Impala and high ratings, I was scoffed at on this board.

 

Seems like cherry picking to me.

 

At the last UN the highest mileage bikes iancluded 2 FJR's.

 

I'm with Marty.

Buy it and ride it.

 

If it breaks fix it and keep it or sell it.

 

When Yamaha makes a model equiped with all the bells and whistles of a loaded GS/GT/RT etc let me know and we can compare apples to apples.

 

 

 

[Ponch]

The truth hurts.

 

And yet, when I cited Consumer Reports wrt the new Impala and high ratings, I was scoffed at on this board.

 

Seems like cherry picking to me.

 

At the last UN the highest mileage bikes iancluded 2 FJR's.

 

I'm with Marty.

Buy it and ride it.

 

If it breaks fix it and keep it or sell it.

 

When Yamaha makes a model equiped with all the bells and whistles of a loaded GS/GT/RT etc let me know and we can compare apples to apples.

 

 

 

GM did their homework with the impala.

 

Have you seen the updated FJR? I think they make a great bike, it just doesn't fit me.

[tallman]

You are like me wrt bike ergos.

 

Many/most don't fit.

 

At least we can enjoy "shopping".

 

I have no axe to grind w/any marque.

 

I've owne YamHonvisons but found BMW gave me what I was after wrt mc experience.

YMMV

I'm 300,000+ miles knock on my wooden head...

[RAMBLIN RED]

Consumer Reports........I don't take it with a grain of salt, more like a cup

[Roadwolf]

I wouldn't knock CR and their testing regimen... I saw a documentary on how they test cars and their facility/test track... it's the real deal... they do a good job on their automobile reviews... it wasn't until very recently that I knew they bothered with the two wheeled world.... makes sense.

[Matts_12GS]

Sounds like another cup of fine whine from the sour grapes brigade.

 

I've had a hall sensor go bad in 120K BMW miles.

 

I'll keep riding them until someone makes something I want more that works better for me.

 

Next...

[92Merc]

I don't post much on the forum, but CR gets my goat. So here I go.

 

I have three problems with CR and their ratings.

 

1)CR claims to be "unbiased". That their testing regime is better than others. But yet, the won't release how they grade the items they are testing. It's their super secret recipe. So they basically have a self re-enforcing delusion of themselves because they won't open themselves up to review of their testing procedures.

 

2)CR has let enough slip on a few points so users have an idea of what they are rating on. But CR doesn't assign weight to issues. If you said you had a problem navigating the new menus with the wheel controller, they call that "a problem". It carries the same weight as if you had a final drive failure. So no severity assigned.

 

3)They only interview the actual owners who subscribe to CR. No one else. So their pool is quite limited. And if the pool that they interview doesn't match what they reviewed, they'll make is sound like that's what they meant all along.

 

Another quibble is they also rarely admit to screwing up. Such as recommending a Toyota model saying "it'll be dependable, they always are", but yet say another brand won't because "no enough data available". They had to eat some crow recently on that Toyota deal.

 

And personally, I also don't buy any paper magazines. Not worth my time...

[Ponch]

I don't post much on the forum, but CR gets my goat. So here I go.

 

I have three problems with CR and their ratings.

 

1)CR claims to be "unbiased". That their testing regime is better than others. But yet, the won't release how they grade the items they are testing. It's their super secret recipe. So they basically have a self re-enforcing delusion of themselves because they won't open themselves up to review of their testing procedures.

 

2)CR has let enough slip on a few points so users have an idea of what they are rating on. But CR doesn't assign weight to issues. If you said you had a problem navigating the new menus with the wheel controller, they call that "a problem". It carries the same weight as if you had a final drive failure. So no severity assigned.

 

3)They only interview the actual owners who subscribe to CR. No one else. So their pool is quite limited. And if the pool that they interview doesn't match what they reviewed, they'll make is sound like that's what they meant all along.

 

Another quibble is they also rarely admit to screwing up. Such as recommending a Toyota model saying "it'll be dependable, they always are", but yet say another brand won't because "no enough data available". They had to eat some crow recently on that Toyota deal.

 

And personally, I also don't buy any paper magazines. Not worth my time...

 

They don't interview anyone for the survey as it's a survey, not an opinion they gathered from their subscribership, which is as far as it can go. I am sure BMW has the metrics to know the rate of various problems under warranty, but they don't share it. I don't think any manufacturer does. SO, it is what it is, which is more than we knew before. Even with a grain of salt, the japanese make a more reliable bike period.

[moshe_levy]

And yet, when I cited Consumer Reports wrt the new Impala and high ratings, I was scoffed at on this board.

 

Seems like cherry picking to me.

 

Not cherry picking - but a cornerstone of all human marketing behavior called cognitive dissonance.

 

From Wiki: "Social psychologists refer to cognitive dissonance as the presence of incongruent relations among cognitions that frequently results in mental discomfort. Ultimately, individuals who hold two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas and/or values frequently experience cognitive dissonance. This discomfort may also arise within an individual who holds a belief and performs a contradictory action or reaction."

 

So.....

 

A person greatly respects Consumer Reports. Has been reading it for 20 years and buys according to their ratings. Very proud of his purchases as class leaders and brags about it often. He also loves BMW motorcycles. CR tests BMW motorcycles for the first time, and has unkind things to say. Cognitive dissonance kicks in. Said person now feels uncomfortable. He MUST shed one of these two conflicts - either admit he made a mistake plunking down $20,000.00 on the BMW, or attack the credibility of CR.

 

Given the mental anguish of admitting a $20,000.00 mistake, the person ALWAYS dismisses bad ratings of the product he bought as invalid, and goes on the warpath against the very reviews he has been touting for years. Think back - you have seen people do it, and you all have probably done it yourself at some time.

 

This behavior pattern is VERY powerful, and has implications in all aspects of life, not just consumer behavior. Pay attention to your own habits - the news you consume, for example. Do you wake up, go through the day, and finish the day reading, watching, and absorbing news op-ed that agrees with your worldview 100% of the time? Most do. Makes us feel better when there's no conflict between what we feel and what we see everybody else feeling. Cognitive dissonance is why.

 

-MKL

[Ponch]

The thing is, a lot of publications praised the Impala, so CR wasn't alone. Sometimes they are alone in their praise for something...

[Urban Surfer]

A good friend of mine has a friend who has two Ferrari's. They are apparently hand built. REALLY REALLY expensive. The fellow uses them for long trips, and uses them often, and they have a lot of issues. ( I had a ride in one!)

Obviously people don't buy them for economic reasons, they are just better at everything they are supposed to do than all the other sports cars out there.

 

My K1300 GT is my Ferrari, well its the best I could do.

 

Also how many people do you know have had final drive failures never mind all the other problems, and still buy BMW.

 

[Jeff in VA]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the 30% is based on K1600 GT/L problems, They have major issues with switchgear and water pumps with some folks replacing both switch clusters multiple times. Quite a few people are on their 2nd or 3rd water pump. Check the K1600 board and see how many people have reported having to ice a switch cluster to get the bike to start or who had a replacement water pump go after just a few miles. The K16s are great bikes with phenomenal engines, but their reliability sucks.

[RichEdwards]

Just read the Consumer Reports article and find it quite accurate. Here's a quote that fits me: "Despite the higher number of problems, Harley and BMW owners were among the most satisfied with their bikes. "

I've had my problems with the four BMW's I've owned but nothing so severe that it would keep me from loving the brand.

[tallman]

Moshe and Ponch,

 

The cherry picking I refer to isn't by CR.

It was the response from the board that blasted CR auto test etc.

 

Now, on a mc evaluation, CR is gospel.

 

That is cherry pickin down here.

 

Not saying I agree or disagree w/CR.

 

My issue was posters pulling

a flip flop wrt the publication itself.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Tim,

 

That was exactly my point. The cognitive dissonance affects the consumer. It's not CR. It's the reader of CR.

 

-MKL

[marcopolo]

We had this same discussion a little while back and I see that we again confuse two issues with respect to CR. Let's just talk cars for a moment, and not bikes. CR does indeed road test and evaluate a certain number of cars each year; a select number of those evaluations are then published monthly in the magazine. In addition, once a year, CR publishes reliability results for cars. Those reliability results are not directly related to CR's road tests. They are simply a summary of the information reported to CR by its subscribers who chose to complete the annual reliability survey (for cars, appliances, TVs, vacuums etc.). CR has now published reliability results on motorcycles. Now here I'm making an assumption as I've not read the article, but I'm sure they are simply summarizing the responses provided by CR subscribers who own motorcycles and who chose to complete a survey questionnaire . Having completed these CR surveys before, they're not exhaustive, but simply a short range of questions. I own a BMW which I love. I have no interest, at this time, in any other brand. I've bought BMWs, having concluded in my own mind that they're probably not the most reliable brand available. The CR reliability survey simply supports what I felt all along. In this respect, the bike reliability results are somewhat similar to the car reliability results: Japanese brands are the most reliable, with European and American brands not so much. The question for the buyer then becomes whether to buy the most reliable product, or the one that stirs the soul (or some compromise of the two attributes).

[tallman]

While I appreciate the job our moderators do, sometimes we need

to realize that certain phrases have become part of our vernacular

and are not political, but sociological commentary, especially wrt

to former elected or appointed officials, who are nothing but public figures at this time and when the comment or phrase does not reference specific policy, IMO.

 

Tough job being a moderator, y'all do it well.

Best wishes.

 

 

 

 

[92Merc]

Here's a good summary of CR in my world.

 

Do I buy CR?

No.

 

When someone posts a link/story about some CR results, do I read it?

Yes.

 

Does any of the CR results alter my decision to buy something?

No.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Just read the Consumer Reports article and find it quite accurate. Here's a quote that fits me: "Despite the higher number of problems, Harley and BMW owners were among the most satisfied with their bikes. "

I've had my problems with the four BMW's I've owned but nothing so severe that it would keep me from loving the brand.

 

Describes me pretty well, too. I've had some "major repairs" with my two BMW's, and seen (through this site) serious issues on many others as well. But I'm still riding BMW.

 

It's entirely plausible to me that BMW's are less reliable than the other brands listed, but it's hard for me to accept that thirty percent of all BMW bikes sold in the past four years have experienced a major repair. the 24% figure for HD is surprising, too; I've always had the impression that their quality over the past couple of decades has been pretty good.

[baggerchris]

My 2011 F650GS twin with not quite 12K on the dial needs a new water pump. My 06 F650GS single needed a water pump at 18K (which was not an easy fix). My 1997 RT between the first owner; myself and the next owner has not needed anything. My 1997 HD needed base gaskets at 15 K fixed under warranty.

 

So? So what. I have enjoyed them all. No regrets.

 

My opinion is that it is what it is and you should take CR reports and then make a valued decision based upon your OWN wants; needs, and likes.

 

I love riding Harleys and Beemers. I love Jeeps too.

 

Does the Can-Bus irritate me when I want to add something and have to take a few extra steps to do it? Does the water pump leaking at 11, 900 miles irritate me? Yes, but overall, I am very satisfied with the whole thing.

 

Will I buy another Harley and/or Beemer next time? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of new bikes out there that look really good.

 

I bought the first Beemer because I had been riding HD for years and wanted to expand my options. Maybe I think it's time to do that again with something altogether different. We will see. Isn't that half the fun?

[sardineone]

Just read the Consumer Reports article and find it quite accurate. Here's a quote that fits me: "Despite the higher number of problems, Harley and BMW owners were among the most satisfied with their bikes. "

I've had my problems with the four BMW's I've owned but nothing so severe that it would keep me from loving the brand.

 

Describes me pretty well, too. I've had some "major repairs" with my two BMW's, and seen (through this site) serious issues on many others as well. But I'm still riding BMW.

 

It's entirely plausible to me that BMW's are less reliable than the other brands listed, but it's hard for me to accept that thirty percent of all BMW bikes sold in the past four years have experienced a major repair. the 24% figure for HD is surprising, too; I've always had the impression that their quality over the past couple of decades has been pretty good.

 

I agree with Mitch on the reliability percentages from what I've observed in my experience.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

I must be nuts because I've never bought anything thinking about reliability. I want fun/something to admire and want to be able to get somewhere quickly and comfortably.

 

 

 

Hey Marty

 

I love It! If I remove your words "bought anything" And inject my words "dated anyone" It could remind me of my early dating years.

 

HOWEVER, as time has moved on, I find reliability / dependability and long term overall cost has become a greater consideration then it used to be.

 

Dave

 

[DiggerJim]

It's entirely plausible to me that BMW's are less reliable than the other brands listed, but it's hard for me to accept that thirty percent of all BMW bikes sold in the past four years have experienced a major repair.

That was my first reaction but then I thought of the mine & friends' bikes and it actually seems low. In the 1st 4 yrs of my bike's life it was recalled for new brake lines and security antenna. I also had to have the fuel strip and the FPC replaced. More than 30% of my friends have had one or more of the same items repaired. So it seems too high at first but after contemplation it now seems low OTOH, I'm not getting rid of it and buying a Hondapotomaus.

 

[jjg3]

Is this a replay of the May 13 CR survey discussion in this thread? Or is this something new?

[Twisties]

Ahhhh.... looks like it did come out in May. I just saw it for the first time.

[hopz]

I have enjoyed just about as much of this thread as I can stand.

 

IMO the deal is this. If you buy/read a CR article like this in order to guide you in the purchase of a motorcycle (that you use for pleasure) you can do that.

 

If you do not rely on CR for information about motorcycles then you can do that too.

 

If you are the sort of person who likes this sort of thing (CR) then you will like it. If not, then you don't. So there.

 

Your actual mileage may vary….

[g_frey]

It is true that CR does not always get it right. Sometimes they leave something out of their criteria that should have been in their. Once they did handsaws and according to their criteria they picked a good one. BUT they left out the blade to handle interface and the backsaw they picked was NOT good in this area. So if you bought the saw you could make a new handle or epoxy up a gap filler to finally get a good saw. The blade was great and really sharp but the handle not so much. I have used hand saws for 50 years and know a little about them.