Honoring Prius drivers who are in a rush to save the earth

[John Ranalletta]

During this week's trip from Indy to NJ, we were passed by no fewer than 4 Prii.

 

I thought it was time to honor Prius drivers who are in such a hurry and are willing risk fines and arrests to save the earth, they will exceed the speed limit by double digits.

 

So, I thought I'd start a honor gallery. Here's the first. Note my speedometer is registering 80 mph.

 

Please note that @ 80 mph, the 335d was getting 40+/mpg-about the same as that reported by Prius drivers in real world conditions, driving 80 mph, but I wasn't saving the earth. Drat!

 

 

 

[Mike]

Sounds to me as though you're mad at him for having a faster car.

[John Ranalletta]

almost every car is faster than mine...

 

i'm upset i don't get credit for being green. nor did i get taxpayers to help me buy the 335d.

[SuperG]

There may be an undocumented war going on between prius drivers and diesel drivers - "who is greener"!

 

I always pass-and-rub prius drivers on the road with my VW passat diesel, specially on the uphills. The 2012-2013s are a bit more powerful with better fuel economy then the previous (new injectors + urea injection +hotter programing)

 

What's not to like? bigger car, more powerful, better fuel economy. I did not get any green credit either.

YOu should slam on the accelerator in your 335D spin the back wheels and show them who's BOSS!

Let that 400+ft/lb of torque shine!

 

Waiting for Moshey to chime in -right about now, I know he can't resist it

[Bud]

Gotta pass those slow pokes who hold up traffic! (I wish we had more smilies)

[John Ranalletta]

I try to limit driving to 2k rpm or less.

 

Anyway, doesn't accepting green tax credits for being green imply an obligation to be a green as possible? Seems like accepting money under false pretenses. Should put speed limiters on all credit-eligible cars.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I try to limit driving to 2k rpm or less.

 

Must be nice. My car is doing 3krpm at 80 MPH.

 

Anyway, doesn't accepting green tax credits for being green imply an obligation to be a green as possible?

 

Green? Sure. As green as possible? No.

 

 

[SuperG]

I try to limit driving to 2k rpm or less.

 

 

you are doing it right, at 2K RPM you are right in the "meat" of the top torque, or on top of the torque curve.

If you got an automatic trans ( yes you do, it is not available with manual trans in the USA.) then the auto trans will keep you in that top torque range.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

 

Green? Sure. As green as possible? No.

 

 

No? We paid for green. We want green or a refund of the tax credit.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Green? Sure. As green as possible? No.

 

No? We paid for green. We want green or a refund of the tax credit.

 

Fine, you got "green." You didn't ask upfront for "as green as possible."

 

"buy a 'green' car" was the requirement for the tax credit. If you also want "drive like a saint," you'll need to offer a separate credit.

[Bud]

"drive like a saint"

 

Of course I do, where do I get my credit??

 

Oh, wait a minute, you said saint, not bat out of hell.

[upflying]

What's not to like about a speeding Prius?

Smugly speeding without any feeling of guilt.

The look of being Green without having to wear Birkenstocks.

[TyTass]

Smug .. yes. Without guilt? Not hardly ... I've noted a tendency in Prius drivers for being decidedly angst- and guilt-ridden about the environment. Sort of a defining characteristic, if I am to continue along this line of broad-brush bashing of Prius drivers.

[Dennis Andress]

I thought it was time to honor ****ing Prius drivers who are in such a hurry and are willing risk fines and arrests to save the earth, they will exceed the speed limit by double digits.

 

You missed an important adjective there...

[moshe_levy]

As expected, I can't resist. A few points:

 

1) Despite the rep of Prius drivers in here, about 5 years ago the Prius stopped being an "early adopter" type vehicle and became a mainstream vehicle, with over 1,000,000 sold in the US alone. In plain English: Most people today don't buy it with some political agenda in mind - they just want to save money on gas. That's what Toyota's focus data is telling them. The political crowd and "greens" and all the early adopters jumped over to Volt / Tesla / Leaf and all the rest of the newer, more efficient designs. Today's modern Prius driver is likely MUCH less "smug" and political than the 5-10 year old stereotype used in here. Most are just regular people, not fanatics.

 

2) Yes, your diesel gets 45+ on the highway. What about town? The Prius will get a combined over 50, which is not something you're going to be able to compete with at all, so on strictly "green" terms you are not in the same galaxy as he is. (In the same way the Prius' miserable chassis dynamics and soporific driving experience won't hold a candle to your BMW).

 

3) There is no need for diesel and hybrid fans to feud. Both are doing what's best for them. In fact, I am steering my friend (who drives mostly highway) away from electric and toward diesel for the superior driving experience on the highway, coupled with better economy which was important to him. A BMW like yours is likely in his future, and getting him into a 40+MPG highway machine makes me pretty happy as well.

 

By the same token, this summer I put two people in Prius Plug Ins, because I got them leases that cost less than their gas bills in their former cars. The drive around town and can charge regularly, so I essentially got them into new cars and they're spending less on the monthly lease than they used to in gas.

 

Every situation is different, but I don't hesitate to put people in diesels when it makes more sense than hybrids, personally.

 

4) In the "hybrid hatred" thread the Cali posts all complained about slow Prius drivers clogging the left lane. I told you all along, that's a regional phenom. Here in NJ, the left lane is full of hybrids going well in excess of the speed limit, and unfortunately I have the points to prove I'm guilty of it as well.

 

I get that some of this is schtick and fun to tease the hybrid drivers for not living up to the fanatical reputation you've built up in your own minds about them, but in truth most of them are just driving like they always have - just not consuming as much as before!

 

-MKL

[elkroeger]

If you also want "drive like a saint," you'll need to offer a separate credit.

 

I think you get that credit at the pump when you fill'er up.

[SuperG]

NO worries, when that tar beneath the earth dries up, we all will be in the group of "honor ****ing Prius driving club"

 

[Oldironken]

My wife drives a Prius, I drive a 10 year old diesel Jetta, and my RT. I am not trying to be green, I just hate spending money on gas. The reason I try to keep my speed down to 10 over is because I hate tickets more than spending money on gas

 

I do have a 97' pickup that gets in the teens for mileage, it's a weekend warrior

[Marty Hill]

[quote=moshe_levy

 

 

I get that some of this is schtick and fun to tease the hybrid drivers for not living up to the fanatical reputation you've built up in your own minds about them, but in truth most of them are just driving like they always have - just not consuming as much as before!

 

-MKL

 

Very well said!

[mickeym3]

I'd be a bit more gracious about them if they would peel some of those stickers off the back of their cars.

[Bud]

My wife drives a Prius, I drive a 10 year old diesel Jetta, and my RT. I am not trying to be green, I just hate spending money on gas. The reason I try to keep my speed down to 10 over is because I hate tickets more than spending money on gas

I do have a 97' pickup that gets in the teens for mileage, it's a weekend warrior

 

+1

 

The last one cost me $143.00 to the state of Kansas.

 

I hate it when that happens.

[flars]

Moshe - as I have mentioned before, I was playing highway leapfrog on I16 with a Volt earlier this year. I was doing a steady 80 mph, and the Volt was playing the '75 then 85 then 75' game (I guess he hadn't learned about cruise control yet). Which led me to the question: what kind of mileage does a Volt get at that speed, and does the yo-yoing affect a Volt like it does a normal ic engine?

[moshe_levy]

Flars-

 

"It depends." If he was running on battery, or on gas. On gas mode, I've found the effects of higher speed are about what you'd see everywhere else. Highway cruising slowly, say 65mph, I easily exceed 40MPG. Pick it up to 80, and you're in the mid to low 30s, depending on temperature and all the other usual factors.

 

That said, the effects of higher speeds on battery aren't nearly as pronounced in my experience, though obviously accelerating / decelerating is less efficient than just holding the speed steady.

 

Let me show you an example:

 

 

Here is a screen shot of a random trip to work in July 2013. As you can see, the temperature is 93 degrees. The AC was on full blast in ECO mode the whole way, and the cruise control was set at "extra legal" speeds (what the BMW was traveling in the original post) for about 40 miles out of the 53 total. Still, the Volt managed an easy 43.5 miles on battery, and only sipped 0.3 gallons of gas to make it the rest of the way to work, for a combined total 182MPG. I can only imagine how much higher it would be if I backed off on the A/C or the speed (probably in excess of 250MPG, by my estimates,) but my intention here was to see how it would perform driven just like any other car. The results, I believe, speak for themselves. After I logged this going to work, I charged up while working in the office, then went home and logged the same result. So about 106 mile round trip, and about 0.6 gallons used. Energy from the sun at home, and at work. Pretty neat!

 

Diesel drivers (though saving) are not in this galaxy, or even close to it. We're talking about over 4 times what the BMW could achieve on the same trip. Vs. a Prius, however, the BMW would be pretty close on a majority highway trip like mine. There are many variables, naturally. People are buying what's best for them - I'm just happy when they make the choice to replace what they've got (when the time comes) with something more efficient.

 

And one last thing: While the Prius IS a miserable golf cart in terms of dynamics, not all EVs are so. The Tesla obviously comes to mind, but the Volt, ELR, i3, and others are showing that you do not have to penalize yourself to drive an efficient vehicle.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

PS I should explain that shot: It shows you that of a 53.3 mile trip (my commute to work, of which about 40 miles is highway) the battery provided 43.5 miles. (Keep in mind my Volt is a 2012 with 10KW usable capacity. 2013+ models have 10.5KW usable, so they would have gone a few miles further). Gas was used for 9.8 miles. 0.3 gallons was used in that 9.8 miles, for 182MPG economy on the trip.

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

please show us the numbers when you are not starting out with a fully charged battery, or if you need to make a 200 mile round trip without being able to plug in an charge.

What I am saying it is all beautiful.. to stop and charge after 40 miles of driving (if you can).

However my experience was after a dealer let us take the car for a full day with a semi charged battery. We were in the 30s driving around (city - stop - and some hwy) when we returned the car the battery was just about dead. Never recharged it self; always used up whatever it was able to accumulate be regen braking. Heck it never even reached a 1/4 mark on the battery. I can't recall the exact MPG for the day of driving but we were in the mid 30s at best; with 2 adult and 1 child in the car.

Driving experience was so-so at best.

The car is smaller than a jetta, my knees were cramped, it is noisy and the engine is buzzy most of the time unless you are cursing on flat roads at mild speeds. Trying to pass a car with a depleted battery? forget it.

The idea with the Volt is great, need a little more legroom, able to recharge faster on the go while driving, efficiently extract energy from he engine or regen braking, solar panel roof top, and smooth out that little buzzbox of the engine it has, better engine balance shaft or even a smooth 3 cylinder engine or softer motor mounts.

Give credit where it is do-> taking the VOlt with a fully charged battery was nice, quiet good accel, electric mode only was nice. I liked it.

[moshe_levy]

You're kind of missing the point here. The Volt is not supposed to "recharge itself" on gas. That's what a series / parallel like a standard Toyota Prius can do, because:

 

1) Its battery pack is not even 1/10 the capacity of a Volt

2) It's not using purely battery power for very long, like a Volt.

 

The idea of the Volt, like ANY plug in, is to plug in whenever possible at home or at work to maximize economy. What does it look like when you don't?

 

We see the Volt beating a Prius plug-in on a long trip until about 200 miles. The Volt has the advantage until then because its battery is huge and allows that 40 miles on pure EV mode, whereas the Prius only gets 13 at best. However, the Prius' gas engine gets 50mpg mixed, and the Volt's is 37. After 200 miles, the Prius edges ahead as its superior gas MPGs allow it the advantage.

 

Your experience at this dealer was awful, and that's a shame. The dealer should have given you a fully charged unit (on EV mode, the Volt is quieter than most any car this side of a Lexus LS). He should have explained that this ISN'T a Prius - it's not supposed to "recharge itself." He should have shown you Sport Mode, which you can switch to at any time, and which would bury your Jetta in any acceleration test, roll-on passing or otherwise.

 

The rest is kind of common sense. Yeah, a compact is going to be smaller inside than a larger near midsize like the Jetta. It's only a 4-seater.

 

MOST Volt owners spend well over 75% of the time in EV mode. Look at me, with my 106 mile per day commute. I'm spending about 85 miles of those on electric. And it's not, in my opinion, bad at all on gas mode. It's a small 4-cylinder engine - no more buzzy or loud than a VW diesel, that's for damn sure.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

I forgot to add - the dealers are doing a LOUSY job explaining the way things work to people. There are too many misconceptions floating around because the dealers and the companies, frankly, aren't educating the customers.

 

The issue of regen which you brought up is a great example. On an absolutely fantastic day, you are regenerating a few hundred watts on a long trip. A few hundred - maybe 200-300W, at best. To put that into perspective, you're spending about 10,000W to go 35-40 miles in a Volt, for example. Regen is NOT going to give you some magical perpetual motion machine - it recovers a small amount of energy otherwise lost to heat in braking and deceleration. The Volt, in this case, is no better or worse than other hybrids and EVs, and you CAN switch to a more agressive regen mode in some cars, like Tesla, and ELR (paddle "shifters,) and even in the Volt and Prius (by "downshifting" the transmission lever).

 

Same with a "solar roof panel." You are talking about a tiny amount of power there, maybe enough to run an interior fan (which is what the Prius' solar roof does, for example). It's nothing, in the grand scheme of things, and its costs more than it will ever recover in most areas of the country.

 

We're all waiting for improvements everywhere, and for things to get ever more efficient, more reliable, less expensive, and just plain better. But we have to be well aware of the state of the art, and align our expectations accordingly.

 

Which customers DO already. 4 cars crack Consumer Reports' vaunted Customer Satisfaction survey. In the industry, that is the Holy Grail - where customers tell you whether they would buy another car like they already own. The Corvette, the 911, the Volt, and the Tesla. Both the Volt (champ for the past 2 years) and Tesla (this year's champ) beat EVERY other car on the road, period.

 

So the lesson there is, when customers know what to expect (meaning - they understand the product which is really the manufacturer / dealer's responsibility) they LOVE these cars. More than any customers love any other cars, in fact.

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

GOt it, thanks.

I swear if I have extra money laying around,

wait better yet ,

if it becomes a bit less expensive and a bit larger I will be allover it like flies on pig$%%it.

 

Ok now back to the regularly scheduled topic of

"Honoring Prius drivers who are in a rush to save the earth"

 

[moshe_levy]

Exactly. Now we can attack them for being too smug to go faster than the speed limit in the left lane - except for when they're so smug, they actually pass us in the left lane. The nerve!

 

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" - George Carlin

 

-MKL

[Mike]

I love my hemi.

[John Ranalletta]

No, it's just illogical behavior. Doesn't bother me at all, just wanted to point out what seems to me to be inconsistent behaviors and the amusing attempts to rationalize them.

[moshe_levy]

Welcome to human behavior. Logic has nothing to do with it, 99.9% of the time.

 

-MKL

[upflying]

Welcome to human behavior. Logic has nothing to do with it, 99.9% of the time.

 

-MKL

Proud member of the .1% club.

[moshe_levy]

When I was in grad school doing focus groups for automotive, we found something expected, but surprising nonetheless. When polled about buying habits, EVERYBODY - unanimously, out of thousands of people - thought their behavior was entirely rational. 100% perfect rational, reasonable, logical behavior.

 

It's sorta like driving - EVERYBODY thinks they're wonderful drivers, and that it's all the other idiots around them who can't drive. We all know the truth about that.....

 

-MKL

[tallman]

No, it's just illogical behavior. Doesn't bother me at all, just wanted to point out what seems to me to be inconsistent behaviors and the amusing attempts to rationalize them.

 

 

How do you know the car wasn't stolen and being taken on a joy ride?

The Northeastern area of our country has seen a number of these where a Prius was targeted.

 

When apprehended, the thief said he was "a member of the Provoke, Incite, Sardonic Society."

 

Speculation ranged from those opposed to tax credits for cars "only Commies and Perverts would own" to

fanatics wanting highways designated for said vehicles.

 

If you encounter a Prius being driven over the speed limit authorities warn not to interfere, impede, or

photograph said vehicle as they can not guarantee your safety considering the type of scofflaw involved in the crime.

[Rougarou]

Prius shmeeush, volt smolt,...nothing like driving a big BMW V12 that hasn't been tuned in a while

 

 

Ya gotta dig on the early 90's radar detector too,....it still comes on

 

 

[MarkShelley]

This is my current car. Same drivetrain as the current Prius

 

Before this I had two Prius`s over 7 years. I also own 6 motorcycles, so can hardly be described as `green`.

All the above cars are company cars and in the UK it is a no brainer when it comes to tax implications, particularly if, like me, the company also pays for your private fuel. We are talking big number savings here, easily enough to finance a new bike in fact.

I would never buy one with my own money as they are not economical at all compared to a diesel of similar performance, particularly when cruising at high speed on motorways. The Lexus is a far better car than the Prius by the way. Build quality is superb.

[SinNH]

I love my hemi.

Yea I do too.

My chainsaw.

My brush cutter.

My leaf blower

My KLR

My RT Nostrovia!

[Sonor]

There are a number of threads concerning just how "green" the Prius truly is when you take all factors into consideration. If you mean green from fuel use, well maybe. One such article is this one about total carbon footprint. As for ever wanting a Pri-ass, no thanks. My last car was a hybrid and the cost of battery replacement, transmission issues, etc will keep me from them for a long time.

[MarkShelley]

Both of my Prius`s covered over 100K miles each with nothing more than usual servicing and tyres. I had absolutely NO other issues during my 7 years of ownership. They are Toyotas.

[lawnchairboy]

luck of the draw I guess, I have had tremendously good luck with an 03 civic hybrid, 178K still ticking, although avg mileage seems to be gradually dropping. On original battery.

[John Ranalletta]

luck of the draw I guess, I have had tremendously good luck with an 03 civic hybrid, 178K still ticking, although avg mileage seems to be gradually dropping. On original battery.

A little better than average expected life. Car makers have conditioned us to expect a "car year" to be about 15k. I base this assumption on the fact that both Honda and Subaru will send email suggesting that, based on the age of my cars, they should have x miles. It works out to 15k/year.

 

So, your 10 y/o car has is really only 12 years old in "car years".

 

A friend bought my '07 Accord in 2012. It had 140k or was almost 10 car-years old - double its age in actual years. He's put another 140k on it. Now, it's almost 19 car-years old despite being only 6 y/o in actual years and it's components are gradually disintegrating.

[moshe_levy]

There are a number of threads concerning just how "green" the Prius truly is when you take all factors into consideration. If you mean green from fuel use, well maybe. One such article is this one about total carbon footprint. As for ever wanting a Pri-ass, no thanks. My last car was a hybrid and the cost of battery replacement, transmission issues, etc will keep me from them for a long time.

 

That article has been discredited to the point where quoting it is akin to admiring Milli Vanilli for their vocal talent. The author of it skewed the facts by making wildly idiotic assumptions, such as that a Hummer would last 3x longer than a Prius, and many other nonsensical fact-free tidbits all designed to prove a predetermined point.

 

In fact, the Prius is one of the most reliable cars ever made. Not just vs. other hybrids, but vs. EVERYTHING. Awards out the wazoo for it, and in CR they classify the Prius costs an estimated 49 cents/mile, less than 50% of the cost of the average car. The main reason isn't the fuel economy - it's that the think goes forever without breaking. Youtube has vids of Prius taxis with 500k+ miles on them.

 

I didn't want to derail the discussion too much, but the idea of that article (which was discredited completely within about 2 months of its publication in 2007) having any influence on this discussion required some correction, in my opinion.

 

-MKL

[lawnchairboy]

Should clarify, I purchased it used with 96k on it in 07'.

[BadAdam]

 

 

No? We paid for green. We want green or a refund of the tax credit.

 

If you look objectively at the subsidies that Toyota Prius drivers receive, they are the same as any regular car out there now. No more federal incentives are available to Toyota buyers. There was a cap on the total numbers of rebates per manufacturer and they blew past that number at least 8 years ago.

 

Now electric cars are a whole nother ballgame but strictly speaking to the 'standard' hybrid cars, there are no government incentives.

 

Full disclosure - in 2002 I had a long and unfulfilling discussion here with some board members who were certain that Prius batteries would disintegrate and cause massive problems. They were wrong but then again, I ran my first prius into a telephone pole...

[Marty Hill]

Hey Bad, good to hear from you as always. Isn't it great to know you were right?

[moshe_levy]

>>>>There was a cap on the total numbers of rebates per manufacturer and they blew past that number at least 8 years ago.<<<

 

Technically, it was 6 years ago. My Prius purchase in 2007 was the last year for phased out credits. The credits phase out as total units sold pass a threshold, and as you said, most manufacturers (but NOT all) have blown past that. See Fed Policies re Credits

 

>>>Now electric cars are a whole nother ballgame but strictly speaking to the 'standard' hybrid cars, there are no government incentives.<<<<

 

Again, not entirely correct. There is a stepped program which has many variables, from KWh total to the amount of vehicles sold. You now have standard hybrids, plug in hybrids, pure electric vehicles, and numerous other classes to deal with. See Credits

 

>>>>Full disclosure - in 2002 I had a long and unfulfilling discussion here with some board members who were certain that Prius batteries would disintegrate and cause massive problems. They were wrong but then again....<<<<<

 

No need for "but then again." They were wrong. Period. I had the same unfulfilling discussion about two years ago on a thread called "Hybrid Hatred," when I tried to get to the bottom of the anger some people feel toward the cars - Chevy Volt in particular. Beyond regurgitating the fact-free nonsense they watched on Fox News (which has since done a 180, by the way) nobody had much to offer in the way of a reasonable or rational explanation for the anti-hybrid frenzy in some circles. But, like you said, they were wrong then. Just like they are still wrong are now.

 

-MKL

[BadAdam]

I just drove my 31st thousand mile with an all electric car and am getting ready to give it back at the end of a lease.

 

We got tons of money from good red blooded 'Merican's for driving that one. Highly regulated electricity sold at a low price, $7,500 in federal tax credits, a $5,000 check from the Great State of California and to top it all off, there is no effective method of taxing electric cars for road building. Ha!

 

I almost feel vindicated for the DMV charging us a tire tax on 5 tires even though the car only comes with 4.

 

The Prius is such a common car now in Los Angeles that I bet there are more of them than just about any other car on the road today. Today, I was out looking at the Declaration of Independence in a local library that has an original. On our way there we passed this huge mansion with THREE Prius's in the driveway. The rich have figured out that these econo-boxes are a good value and that the smug-o-meter is off the charts.

 

Link to the Declaration of Independence:

http://hdl.huntington.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p15150coll3/id/6951/rec/2

 

 

[Huzband]

Today, I was out looking at the Declaration of Independence in a local library that has an original.

 

There is only ONE original.

 

Keep your left coast redefinition to yourself.

[chrisolson]

[hijack, sorry] An interesting broadside, yet not one from the Dunlap Broadside which was done on July 4th or early morning July 5th making them the first, original printed copies of the just approved manuscript of the Declaration.

 

The engrossed Declaration we all know was ordered almost 2 weeks later by the Continental Congress on July 19th and was signed August 2nd. Since the Dunlap Broadside copies were not signed, the engrossed version is the original signed copy of the text approved on July 4th.