Milestone for USMC

[Matts_12GS]

First women graduate from basic infantry school

 

It's refreshing to see that they're putting through without changing the physical standards for the jobs dependent on gender.

 

One of my greatest peeves in the Navy was that there was women's physical fitness standard and a men. It'll be interesting to watch and see what happens with the services in the next few years as they are required to expand the role of women in combatant positions.

[lkchris]

All are awesome people.

[Rougarou]

I spent 16 years in the grunts and have always said, if they can pull their load, let them do the job. I was very happy when the female physical fitness test was raised from 1.5 miles to 3 miles for women. The only difference now in the PFTs is that the women still do the flexed arm hang (they can have that, I'd rather do pullups).

 

I'd really like to have been there to see the actual events. Knowing what I know, sometimes, the PR machine outranks the actual events that have transpired.

 

Either way, progress is being made.

[SuperG]

From the article

"The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps are looking at the standards required for serving in battlefront jobs such as infantry, armor and elite commando positions. They have until Jan. 1, 2016, to open as many jobs as possible to women, and to explain why if they decide to keep some closed."

 

I am sorry but I am wholeheartedly against this and not sure why this change was implemented.

 

Furthermore, I hop this is not an other "affirmative action" where they HAVE TO allow women into combat.

"They have until Jan. 1, 2016, to open as many jobs as possible to women"

 

I am sure they can muster up some mean marine females to show that yes it can be done. However by nature (physically and anatomically) females are simply not created for such role ( front line combat).

Just as most males would not make a good kindergarten teacher.

In the older days, or even today I am sure some females fight side by side along with men, but in the modern society it is just not logical.

Tossing in a female solder into group of high testosterone 18- 20 some year old group of males is just asking for trouble.

 

On the other-hand, if high brass the US Armed Forces decided that this is a good idea, there may be a good reason behind it.

 

 

 

 

[Rougarou]

From the article

"The Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps are looking at the standards required for serving in battlefront jobs such as infantry, armor and elite commando positions. They have until Jan. 1, 2016, to open as many jobs as possible to women, and to explain why if they decide to keep some closed."

 

I am sorry but I am wholeheartedly against this and not sure why this change was implemented.

 

Furthermore, I hop this is not an other "affirmative action" where they HAVE TO allow women into combat.

"They have until Jan. 1, 2016, to open as many jobs as possible to women"

 

I am sure they can muster up some mean marine females to show that yes it can be done. However by nature (physically and anatomically) females are simply not created for such role ( front line combat).

Just as most males would not make a good kindergarten teacher.

In the older days, or even today I am sure some females fight side by side along with men, but in the modern society it is just not logical.

Tossing in a female solder into group of high testosterone 18- 20 some year old group of males is just asking for trouble.

 

On the other-hand, if high brass the US Armed Forces decided that this is a good idea, there may be a good reason behind it.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a bit of sexists and archaic thinking to me.

 

As much as you think you know physically about women, you probably don't. Not ALL women are suited for combat jobs just like not ALL men are suited for combat jobs. At some of the non-infantry schools I have attended, some women kept it toe to toe with men (humping a pack, formation and individual runs, etc.,) while some men lagged at the back.

 

Since it is strictly volunteer for the women to go through infantry training, only those that "think" they have a chance will make the attempt. They're not saying that women will be forcefully put into combat MOS's, they're just opening up the opportunity.

 

As far as them being around "high testosterone 18- 20 some year old group of males",...have you, within the last 30 years, ever seen a non-combat arms unit? Have you ever, within the last 20 years, been on a Naval vessel? Women have been serving side by side with men for over a century.

 

Yes there are issues, but it is not the "norm", it is an anomaly....good leadership takes care of issues before they occur. While news article after news article can site the sexual harassment, rape and other male/female issues of the military, again, this is the minority.....it wouldn't do the news agency's any good to report the great camaraderie of a co-ed unit.

 

Lastly, while training in Israel, women are in the infantry and they trained us men on their weapons and tactics.

[Dave McReynolds]

I'm sure what I'm about to say is sexist and archaic too. It doesn't really matter what I say anyway, because my generation has come and gone, and the new generations have to decide what is best for themselves. Certainly I realize that just because something is old doesn't make it right, and sometimes changes are for the better.

 

For example, the generation before mine was fine with segregated armed forces, Tuskegee airmen notwithstanding - they were segregated too. Integration of the armed forces has not been without its bumps in the road, but at least the armed forces are fully integrated, which is more than I can say about the rest of society, and I think almost everyone would say we are better off because of that.

 

But to return to the subject at hand, looking back at my year in the infantry in Vietnam, which was one of the toughest years of my life, would I have been better off, happier, more effective as a Marine, if there had been women fighting next to me? I have to answer "no" to all of that. Instead, it would have just added another complication to my life that I would have had to deal with, when I had all the complications I could deal with already,

 

I realize the generation before mine might have made the same comment regarding racial integration. Only time will tell if there is any meaningful difference.

[DiggerJim]

However by nature (physically and anatomically) females are simply not created for such role ( front line combat).

Just as most males would not make a good kindergarten teacher.

Most men are not by nature (physically and anatomically) suitable to be a Marine either. That's why they're called "The Few..."

 

Some men are good kindergarten teachers.

 

At least they have a choice to try. Female Marines don't get to make a similar choice now.

[SuperG]

As far as them being around "high testosterone 18- 20 some year old group of males",...have you, within the last 30 years, ever seen a non-combat arms unit? Have you ever, within the last 20 years, been on a Naval vessel? Women have been serving side by side with men for over a century.

 

yes, it has been about 25 years since I've been in it.

but we should not compare "non combat" with "front line combat" when we discuss females in armed forces; nor being navy vessel. It is different. I am sure lots of females do great many levels of assignment including, intelligence support roles or even piloting jets and helis.

I am talking about combat, isolated month long assignment in the mountains of Afghanistan.

 

Lastly, while training in Israel, women are in the infantry and they trained us men on their weapons and tactics.

 

there again, not fair comparison to compare US armed force to an other country's. Different culture.

 

Being sexist? not my intention. However, I thing in the gender neutral wold of today, there should be a drawn logical line.

 

Now, if my daughter would insist that she want to be front line infantry in Afghanistan, I possibly would not be able stop her, but I sure would do my best over and over to use some logic and talk her out of it.

[SuperG]

However by nature (physically and anatomically) females are simply not created for such role ( front line combat).

Just as most males would not make a good kindergarten teacher.

Most men are not by nature (physically and anatomically) suitable to be a Marine either. That's why they're called "The Few..."

 

Some men are good kindergarten teachers.

 

At least they have a choice to try. Female Marines don't get to make a similar choice now.

 

of course...

But I should ask this general question...

You would be ok with sending your daughter to front line infantry/combat to slay the perceived enemy?

[Rougarou]

As far as them being around "high testosterone 18- 20 some year old group of males",...have you, within the last 30 years, ever seen a non-combat arms unit? Have you ever, within the last 20 years, been on a Naval vessel? Women have been serving side by side with men for over a century.

 

yes, it has been about 25 years since I've been in it.

but we should not compare "non combat" with "front line combat" when we discuss females in armed forces; nor being navy vessel. It is different. I am sure lots of females do great many levels of assignment including, intelligence support roles or even piloting jets and helis.

I am talking about combat, isolated month long assignment in the mountains of Afghanistan.

 

 

Why not give them the benefit of the doubt? Women DO serve in remote environments, carry essentially the same equipment and are isolated for months at a time,...I know a few that served in the 'Stan in small units. Why relish them to support roles if they can do the combat job? I've been to combat, not much that is done there cannot be done by a competent woman.

 

Lastly, while training in Israel, women are in the infantry and they trained us men on their weapons and tactics.

there again, not fair comparison to compare US armed force to an other country's. Different culture.

 

Being sexist? not my intention. However, I thing in the gender neutral wold of today, there should be a drawn logical line.

 

Now, if my daughter would insist that she want to be front line infantry in Afghanistan, I possibly would not be able stop her, but I sure would do my best over and over to use some logic and talk her out of it.

 

Not a fair comparison?,....aren't women, women? Are you saying that Israeli women are "tougher" than American women or is it that our culture "protects" women more? Again, if they can hump the pack, they can do the job.

 

I think the bottom line is an "old line of thinking" that women somehow need the "protection" of men and should be placed out of harms way. I, along with many others who I served with (retired 2009), treat women as just another Marine, no gender issues, just expect them to perform at the same level as the men they serve with.

 

 

[Rougarou]

However by nature (physically and anatomically) females are simply not created for such role ( front line combat).

Just as most males would not make a good kindergarten teacher.

Most men are not by nature (physically and anatomically) suitable to be a Marine either. That's why they're called "The Few..."

 

Some men are good kindergarten teachers.

 

At least they have a choice to try. Female Marines don't get to make a similar choice now.

 

of course...

But I should ask this general question...

You would be ok with sending your daughter to front line infantry/combat to slay the perceived enemy?

 

I've got two daughters, both grew up military brats, and I wished they had chosen to serve. Speaking for me, I would have no issues hand my girls an M-4 and sending them on their merry way.

[DiggerJim]

But I should ask this general question...

You would be ok with sending your daughter to front line infantry/combat to slay the perceived enemy?

As much as I would be OK with sending my sons. I would not disrespect her by signalling that I in any way doubted her abilities were the equal of theirs.

[SuperG]

 

Not a fair comparison?,....aren't women, women? Are you saying that Israeli women are "tougher" than American women or is it that our culture "protects" women more? Again, if they can hump the pack, they can do the job.

Women are women, LOL.. that is indisputable.

But they are in a bit of different situation, considering that Israel (state of Israel) is a small country about the size of Illinois or smaller, in a region that is vastly outsized by a different religious nations, most if not all hostile towards Israel. So those Women that fight may have a different mindset to defending that small country, their own home turf to their own survival.

 

Would you not fight differently if you would need to protect your own family or porperty to the blood! vs. fighting on someone elses soil to protect someone else?

[Rougarou]

 

Not a fair comparison?,....aren't women, women? Are you saying that Israeli women are "tougher" than American women or is it that our culture "protects" women more? Again, if they can hump the pack, they can do the job.

Women are women, LOL.. that is indisputable.

But they are in a bit of different situation, considering that Israel (state of Israel) is a small country about the size of Illinois or smaller, in a region that is vastly outsized by a different religious nations, most if not all hostile towards Israel. So those Women that fight may have a different mindset to defending that small country, their own home turf to their own survival.

 

Would you not fight differently if you would need to protect your own family or porperty to the blood! vs. fighting on someone elses soil to protect someone else?

 

I don't need a geography lesson, I've been there a few times and trained with the Israelis each time there.

 

You pointed out the physically and anatomically they were not built for the rigors of combat, I'm showing you that women ARE built for the rigors of combat. Now you are trying to throw in the "different culture" perspective,....I'm sorry, but if someone was shooting at me, it matters not the reason that I'm fighting so long as I fight to stay alive. So to answer your last question, no, I would not fight differently, I would fight to stay alive and to keep my comrade alive.

[Dave McReynolds]

I'm sorry, but if someone was shooting at me, it matters not the reason that I'm fighting so long as I fight to stay alive. So to answer your last question, no, I would not fight differently, I would fight to stay alive and to keep my comrade alive.

 

Sorry, beg to differ with you. A little off topic, I suppose, but the reason a country is fighting definitely matters, as to whether its soldiers are fighting to stay alive, or fighting to win. In the last few wars, back to and including mine, I think soldiers were fighting primarily to stay alive and go home without leaving any pieces of themselves behind. Not all soldiers, of course, there have been some heroes, but the average soldier. Contrast with WWII, where I think the average soldier was fighting to win, and was much more willing to shed blood or die for the cause than in subsequent wars.

 

As to whether this makes any difference in having women as front line soldiers, I dunno, but it certainly makes a huge difference in general if a country is fighting for survival or fighting for some less understood political goal.

[Rougarou]

I'm sorry, but if someone was shooting at me, it matters not the reason that I'm fighting so long as I fight to stay alive. So to answer your last question, no, I would not fight differently, I would fight to stay alive and to keep my comrade alive.

 

Sorry, beg to differ with you. A little off topic, I suppose, but the reason a country is fighting definitely matters, as to whether its soldiers are fighting to stay alive, or fighting to win. In the last few wars, back to and including mine, I think soldiers were fighting primarily to stay alive and go home without leaving any pieces of themselves behind. Not all soldiers, of course, there have been some heroes, but the average soldier. Contrast with WWII, where I think the average soldier was fighting to win, and was much more willing to shed blood or die for the cause than in subsequent wars.

 

As to whether this makes any difference in having women as front line soldiers, I dunno, but it certainly makes a huge difference in general if a country is fighting for survival or fighting for some less understood political goal.

 

I think you are out of touch with todays military,...we always fight to win, at least during my tours of Panama, the Gulf War and the war in Iraq.....for the Marines I know/knew, the reason didn't matter.