Cleaning injectors

[blackyam]

Hi. Last Monday I brought our Saturn car into the shop where they used a machine to clean the injectors (without running anything through the fuel line). Apparently that's a whole lot better than using a bottle of Techron, for example.

 

My question is, If it good for my car, would it be good for my R1200RT? Can it be done? What's your call on this? TIA.

 

---John.

[6speedTi]

I use on a regular basis Lucas oil fuel conditioner and injector cleaner. Great stuff. If you suspect dirty injectors then try Seafoam. Walmart has it in quart cans. This stuff is good for occasional use. It really works good if you have a problem.

The Lucas Oil product I use for preventative maintenance reasons.

The Seafom I would use if I have a problem related to fuel injectors. If non of this helps then a tear down of the injectors would be my next step.

[RAINEY]

They hooked it into to your air and fuel intake with a special tool on the machine. Probably a air intake and throttle body cleaner. It's a fairly concentrated product. BMW Motorrad had some kind of a bulletin for a couple models that require a system cleaning of that type. I don't know the details but I asked my dealer about it last time I was there. They had a few packages of the products in the office.

[racer7]

Periodically I run some cleaner (its been Techron, Lucas or other at various times) through with the fuel as a preventative measure and so far I've never had injector problems that caused me to pull injectors for a proper cleaning on any vehicle I own though I have upsized injectors a few times when doing major power ads to ensure enough fuel at reasonable duty cycles.

 

If I did have symptoms of gummed up injectors, I'd pull them all and do it right rather than try a shortuct that can often produce only partial results. Injector refurb is chep if you ship them off to a good shop - they come back with proof of proper functionality so there is no guessing. But no reason to do it unless you've got a problem..

[sardineone]

John, I'm not too fast to fix something that ain't broke. With that said I had personal experience with a Ford Taurus I had in the past. It ran fine, but even with the EFI was getting a bit cold natured till the motor was warmed up. I put some Lucas injector cleaner in the tank on a fill up, drove 3 miles and parked for the night. The next day the problem was fixed. I'm a believer in Lucas.

[blackyam]

Hi, everyone. Thanks for your responses.

 

I agree with sardineone's "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" in general. On my Saturn car (> 100 k miles), they hooked up a machine to it to run some injector cleaner through it without introducing the cleaner into the fuel system, so it must be like what RAINEY described. The car had a bad head gasket that was changed, and cleaning the injectors was the "cherry on top" to make everything "like new" again.

 

I was told at the shop that it's not really a good idea to run stuff like Techron through the fuel system because one can't really say what stuff like that would do the the lines, &c. It was also pointed out that no owner's manual suggests using stuff like Techron. I know lots of folks here do use Techron, Seafoam, &c., without any apparent ill effects and I'm not disagreeing with y'all; I'm only reporting what was told to me. :-)

 

Thanks again for your responses. I often learn a lot around here.

 

---John.

[lkchris]

Applies to fuel injectors too, I'd think ...

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/tips-article/1008972_mechanics-tale-the-flushing-of-america

[tallman]

John,

I guess we'd better stop buying Chevron gas according to that shop.

 

Use top tier gas, add some cleaner once a year or so.

[kgerry]

Shell V-Power....

[blackyam]

lkchris, that was a fun read. Thanks.

 

tallman and kgerry, I do try to buy Chevron and Shell when I'm on the road, but at home I fill up at Sam's Club. Is that really not a good idea? Thanks.

 

---John.

[roger 04 rt]

...

 

Use top tier gas, add some cleaner once a year or so.

 

+1 to Techron Concentrate. For the past year I've been logging data from my '04 R1150RT as part of a Wideband O2 sensor project I've been posting results from. Periodically, I run some Techron Concentrate in a tank of fuel. I have had the injectors cleaned and had the balance checked (very worthwhile on an Oilhead). I use only top-tier fuel.

 

In spite of the above, when I run a tank of Techron Concentrate, the idle picks up 50-100 RPM. My conclusion is that even with good fuel practices, something slightly accumulates at the injector nozzle. So I follow the advice above and run the TC once or twice a year.

 

Because the R1200s have two Oxygen Sensors, and because like the Motronic, the BMS-K has the ability to learn about fueling errors and sensor errors (Adaptive capability), it will learn about injector errors and keep them relatively well in hand.

 

I have been getting copies of injector cleaning reports from Oilhead owners who recently sent theirs out for cleaning and measurement. It is ususal to see 3-4% mismatch before cleaning and less than 2% after.

 

RB

[macx]

I don't know about these bikes, but have had first hand experience plus lots of agreements from other folks about too frequent use of injector cleaner where you have a submerged electric fuel pump in a car or truck.

 

At least in some vehicles there are at least some of the power wires in the fuel pump that are exposed to the fuel - I guess the fuel flow helps cool the pump.

 

Trouble is, too frequent injector cleaner erodes the sheathing on the wires and the pump eventually fails.

 

I don't know if the same situation exists in these bikes, but after my experience with auto fuel pumps, and the similar experiences of a number of knowledgeable folks,now I use injector cleaner maybe every 20 k miles or so, or a little more frequently if the bike or vehicle isn't driven a lot.

 

I know Seafoam is very popular with the knowledgeable hot rod crowd, used on occasion.

 

I'm of the opinion to use cleaner but not on a regular every fill basis - more like once in 10 to 20 k miles. And ALWAYS using name brand gas from busy stations, and not filling up shortly after they've had a delivery which stirs up the water and crud that's settled to the bottom of their tanks. Also not from a station where the tank fill ports aren't raised above the parking lot surface to prevent rain water from getting into the tank. Beyond that, I'd either have them refurbished by a reputable shop or simply replace them. Many smart hot rod folks replace injectors by 100k as they do wear internally no matter how clean.

 

That's all IMHO of course :-)

[lkchris]

I know Seafoam is very popular with the knowledgeable hot rod crowd, used on occasion.

 

This (knowledgeable hot rod crowd) seems almost oxymoronic, but in any event are there any fuel injected hot rods? Fuel pumps in tanks? German systems?

[HobbyWrench]

I agree on Techroline once a year. Good article regarding flushing of America! Regarding brake fluid flushing; CHP BMW Police bikes in Calif. originally did not have to flush the brake systems until approx. 48K miles. After several failures of the ABS units BMW changed their recommendation to every 2 years or 24 K miles, whichever came first. That greatly reduced instances of ABS controller failures. I speculated the very hard riding/braking continually heated the fluid and broke it down much more often than on bikes in civilian use. On my personal 02 R1150RT I've changed brake/clutch fluid every 2 years using Valvoline Synthetic only. Great stuff, never a problem!

[HobbyWrench]

Forgot to ask, Roger, who did you use for injector cleaning and approx. how much did it cost? TIA

[roger 04 rt]

Forgot to ask, Roger, who did you use for injector cleaning and approx. how much did it cost? TIA

 

I used Marren Injector in Connecticut since they were close by. The service was good and their report was thorough. I think I paid $60 for the pair.

RB

[macx]

Actuallly, all modern "hot rods" (powerful performance cars) are of course injected.

 

Now about the "knowledgeable" thing - not too many years ago I tackled modifying my 89 Lincoln MK VII LSC and did a lot of research on making the fuel injection work with a considerably more powerful engine than the stock 5.0.

 

Reading on a number of forums revealed that many of that crowd, as well as other popular makes i.e. GM's performance cars, do considerable custom tuning to their systems even to the point of rewriting programs for the computers. I've got a device that I can plug into my computer and in real time read all the fuel curves and other engine management parameters and change them.

 

Many of these folks are able to double their engine's horsepower and torque by modifying the engine management systems. I saw a dyno sheet from a 4.6 Cobra Mustang that still had all the stock engine internals and exhaust that recorded over 700 hp at the rear wheels on a totally daily driveable street car, without exceeding 6,000 rpm, all thru engine management changes. You don't do things like that without being somewhat knowledgeable. And even "old hot rods" (classic muscle cars)have stand alone injection systems of various types available for retrofit, some of which have to be totally set up and tuned by the owner or a hot rod shop. And it's not uncommon for an "old" style engine to put out well over 1 hp per cubic inch without excessive rpms, have a broad torque curve, be daily driveable incl starting well in cold weather without touching the throttle, idle smoothly well under 1000 rpm, and still get excellent (upper 20's)gas mileage. I would submit that takes at least a modiocum of technical expertise that goes considerably beyond the level of setting valve lash and balancing throttle bodies.

 

I increased my Lincoln's horsepower by 75 lb ft of torque and 50 hp and only lost 1 mpg on the road with 1 step deeper gears and a moderate performance converter, within the same rpm curve as the stock engine, and it still runs fine on 87 octane. I also totally rebuilt and beefed up my auto trans, making my own tools such as seal compressors and H gauges to measure installed height of various assemblies, and installed and programmed a stand alone electronic shift controller that ran the modified valve body. And that was not nearly as intensive a hot rod project as when I built classic muscle engines for my own cars, such as a 426 hemi, big block 67 Chev Camaro and others I've done. And I'm FAR from as knowledgeable as many die hard go-fasters.

 

Cheers