Check my valve clearance figures

[macx]

2011 bike, 43k miles.

 

Intakes all the same clearance, right in the middle of the range, so far so good.

 

But against the exhaust clearance max of .40 mm, I have clearance of .432 mm on 1 & .457 mm on 3, so need .035 mm and .060 mm thicker hemispheres, right so far?

 

For 2 of the .457 mm clearance, I already have .510 mm hemispsheres.

 

If I'm reading it right, the thickest one S&H lists is a .570 mm, so that would just barely get me into the max clearance range of .40 mm on those 2.

 

On one with .457 mm clearance I have a .515 mm hemisphere already so would need a .575 thick hemisphere to get it down about to the max clearance of .40, and a .580 mm one would be better, right?

 

But the thickest S&H lists is a .570.

 

If I want to get within the stated maximum of .40mm, something else seemingly would have to be replaced,right?

 

And what do I do when things wear further? I imagine the "drag levers" would likely be the next things to replace once the hemisphere's are max'd out? $110 ea - ouch! And don't even talk about the cams at $410 each!

 

Or does someone else have thicker hemispheres available?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[OlGeezer]

If you haven't already, you should measure your existing shims. They are wear items and are probably less than what you think they are.

 

[terryofperry]

macx

 

You may have a decimal point error. The existing shim should read 5.10 instead of .510. According to the "shim" calculator you need part # 11347721188 which is 5.25mm. This should put you at .357 clearance. You have a lot of adjustment left, do not worry.

 

http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=670668&highlight=valve+shim

 

I did not know the shims were wear items, learned something.

 

Terry

[dirtrider]

Morning Macx

 

First off-- you seem to have very loose exhaust valves for your mileage.

I have done more than a few of these & your clearance seems excessive. Are you SURE the engine was cold during the checking? (under 95°f). If not, re-check when the engine is (overnight) cold.

I would more guess that one exhaust that seems correct might be a bit tight at overnight cold engine.

 

 

If you still have the exhaust clearances mentioned on cold engine then you need to keep your decimal places correct.

 

I corrected the decimals for you below---

 

 

 

For 2 of the .457 mm clearance, (you) already have 5.10 mm hemispsheres….

 

So on these you need to be .057 tighter, & they come in .05 increments so a 5.20 would be .1 tighter-- OR, give you .357mm clearance. ---.457 existing clearance minus .1 = .357mm

 

If I'm reading it right, the thickest one S&H lists is a 5.70 mm, so that would just barely get me into the max clearance range of .40 mm on those 2.

 

On one with .457 mm clearance (you) have a 5.15 mm hemisphere already so would need a 5.75 thick hemisphere to get it down about to the max clearance of .40, and a 5.80 mm one would be better, right?….

 

NO, you need to be .057 lower & they come in .05 increments so your 5.15 +.1 =5.25. --Or a 5.25 would lower you to .357mm ---.457 existing clearance minus .1 = .357mm

 

[OlGeezer]

D.R. - Don't you also need to measure the existing shim? It is my understanding that they wear and that the 5.10 is no longer 5.10.

 

Or am I missing something?

[dirtrider]

Morning OlGeezer

 

Yes, the old semi-sphere should be measured but that is more for positive identification than wear. (some of the OEM are half sizes)

 

They can wear very very slightly but not enough to make any appreciable difference in figuring the needed sphere to obtain proper clearance.

 

Be way more likely to have rocker arm or cam lobe wear than measurable semi-sphere wear.

 

[OlGeezer]

some of the OEM are half sizes

 

WHAT THE HELL?

 

I guess it is like BMW to take a simple procedure and make it complicated!

 

Sheesh!

[HeliMark]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on my '12 RT, all the spherical's have their size printed on them. It really doesn't matter if they have worn or not. Once you measure the clearance and determine that you are out "x" amount, just use the number printed on the old ones and buy new ones that are the "x" amount more or less. Why measure the old one just to get the same end result?

 

Mark

[sloride]

This is how I interpret the valve clearance

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

Valve clearance allows for .1 mm of adjustment before a semi sphere needs to be replaced (intake .13-.23 exhaust .30 - .40)

 

According to the Fiche sizes range from 4.60 to 5.70 in .05 increments

 

If Your reading On exhaust #1 is .432 you are .032 mm over the max allowable . That's not a whole lot.

 

You could go for a .05 correction and have .382 or you go for a .1 and have .332 and be in specs

 

 

[OlGeezer]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on my '12 RT, all the spherical's have their size printed on them. It really doesn't matter if they have worn or not. Once you measure the clearance and determine that you are out "x" amount, just use the number printed on the old ones and buy new ones that are the "x" amount more or less. Why measure the old one just to get the same end result?

 

Mark

 

Because, if they do wear, they are no longer the size that is printed on them.

[sloride]

Also it is my understanding that valve clearance gets smaller with wear .

 

When checking the gap make sure that you insert the feeler gauge from a horizontal angle. If you insert the feeler gauge from the vertical you could easily get a false reading. There is a recess in the cam that you want to avoid

[macx]

I wouldn't have thought a simple decimal point situation would throw me like that! I'm not used to calculating in mm to the right of the decimal, must be the problem. Anyway -

 

Here's an update - I measured cold this time. Hadn't intended to use the hot figures, was the first time into that system so was just curious and used that as a practice run, and to measure the existing spheres. Quite a diff in some of them hot to cold!

 

BTW, try as I might I couldn't see any markings on them. My vision isn't the best so that's probly why. Anyway that's why I measured them.

 

And I didn't know about the orientation of the feeler, I know I held some of them vertically - do I need to do over? Of course have it all buttoned back up.

 

So here's the situation and my calc's shooting for a .350 clear.

 

Left top exh (hot was .432) cold is .410 with a 5.10 sphere.

If I understand things a little better, to get down around a 3.50 clearance I'm + .060 mm, so would need a 4.15 sphere

 

 

Left btm exh (hot was .457) cold is .380 with a 5.10 sphere.

So I'm +.03 so would again need a 5.15 sphere to get close to .350. (I know I held the feeler vertically for the bottoms.)

 

 

Right top ex (hot was .457) cold is .420 with a 5.10 sphere.

So I'm +.07 so again need a 5.15 sphere (or could use the 5.20

sphere from the right btm?).

 

 

Right btm ex (hot was .457) cold is .410 with a 5.20 sphere.

So I'm +.06 so need a 5.25 sphere.

 

 

Am I still out in left field or do I have a little better grasp of the decimal point situation?

 

If the wear occurs more in the rocker than in the sphere, which I can understand from my work on hot rods, that could get expensive to start replacing those arms at over $100 a pop!

 

Of course I do have to keep in mind I've already got near 45 k on this bike, too. So I guess a .05 wear in that many miles isn't too bad, really, and I still have some allowable wear left I can take up with spheres before I have to worry about replacing rockers.

 

Thank goodness at least the intakes are just about perfect in the middle of the range yet.

 

Thanks much!!

 

EDIT: Tried that spreadsheet again, had trouble with it the first time, borrowed computer diff Windows than my PC which is down getting a new mo board and I don't have it all back together yet.

 

ANYWAY - Halleleujah! Got the spreadsheet working and my manual calcs even agree with it! Even a 66 year old dog can apparently still learn new tricks on occasion.

 

Thanks for all the input and helping me grasp the intracies of mm / decimal calcs!

 

 

 

[sloride]

This how I'm seeing it

 

.41 is exactly .01 over the max the semispheres come in .05 increments . If you go up 1 increment (.05 ) from the 5.10 that you have 5.10 + .05 = 5.16 . Since they come in .05 increments you would actually have to buy a 5.15

[dirtrider]

 

 

Afternoon Macx

 

You are still having issues with those decimal points as 3.50mm is .138" that’s a cavern not a gap.

 

 

Left top exh (hot was .432)-- cold is .410 with a 5.10 sphere.

If I understand things a little better, to get down around a 3.50 .350 clearance I'm + .060 mm, so would need a 4.15 sphere

---You will need a 5.15 sphere -- (5.10+.060= 5.16)

 

 

Left btm exh (hot was .457) cold is .380 with a 5.10 sphere.

So I'm +.03 so would again need a 5.15 sphere to get close to .350. (I know I held the feeler vertically for the bottoms.)--

---5.15 is about as close as you will get.

 

 

Right top ex (hot was .457) cold is .420 with a 5.10 sphere.

So I'm +.07 so again need a 5.15 sphere (or could use the 5.20

sphere from the right btm?).

--Either 5.15 or 5.20 will work (personally I would use a 5.15)

 

 

Right bottom ex (hot was .457) cold is .410 with a 5.20 sphere.

So I'm +.06 so need a 5.25 sphere.

--Yes 5.25 will again be close.

 

[Tech1]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on my '12 RT, all the spherical's have their size printed on them. It really doesn't matter if they have worn or not. Once you measure the clearance and determine that you are out "x" amount, just use the number printed on the old ones and buy new ones that are the "x" amount more or less. Why measure the old one just to get the same end result?

 

Mark

 

Because, if they do wear, they are no longer the size that is printed on them.

 

The adjustment shims/sphericals don't really wear enough to worry about. The primary reason for adjustment is valve seat wear, causing a smaller lash. Wear of the rocker pivot can increase lash.

[macx]

OK, seems I'm set.

 

The dealer had three 5.15's and a 5.25 in stock so I'm good to go tomorrow morning after it cools.

 

Then to break out the twin max and de-tupperware it.

 

Should be good for quite awhile again.

 

With a goodly amount of thickness available via thicker

spheres I can tolerate a significant amount of follower

or rocker arm wear before I have to replace them.

 

Thanks for all the input!

[HeliMark]

Correct me if I am wrong, but on my '12 RT, all the spherical's have their size printed on them. It really doesn't matter if they have worn or not. Once you measure the clearance and determine that you are out "x" amount, just use the number printed on the old ones and buy new ones that are the "x" amount more or less. Why measure the old one just to get the same end result?

 

Mark

 

Because, if they do wear, they are no longer the size that is printed on them.

 

The adjustment shims/sphericals don't really wear enough to worry about. The primary reason for adjustment is valve seat wear, causing a smaller lash. Wear of the rocker pivot can increase lash.

 

And, when you measure the clearances, you are also measuring the shim wear. If I have determined that I need to get a .005 larger shim and I have a 5.50 as marked, I buy a 5.55. Why measure the shim to say 5.45 and now have to add .10 to get the same results.

[OlGeezer]

 

And, when you measure the clearances, you are also measuring the shim wear.

 

I don't think that's true, but I got a headache reading the previous post and now I need to take a nap.

 

I'm certainly not one to argue with D.R., but if shims didn't wear, then why wouldn't the dealer exchange them like they do for the more conventionally shimmed valve systems?

 

I'm just going by the instructions in Jim Van Baden's DVR. Maybe I got it wrong. I'll go back and re-watch the procedure.

 

[dirtrider]

Clip----

 

And, when you measure the clearances, you are also measuring the shim wear. If I have determined that I need to get a .005 larger shim and I have a 5.50 as marked, I buy a 5.55. Why measure the shim to say 5.45 and now have to add .10 to get the same results.

 

Morning HeliMark

 

First off, on the camhead, the wear is usually so very slight that it just doesn't matter. You are mainly measuring them as double check that the size marked on the semi sphere is ACTUALLY the measured size of the sphere.

 

These camhead bikes are so new that they are mostly still original owner.

The problems start to occur when the bikes are 2 or 3 owners old.

 

I have seen more than a few "other" older valve adjuster shims that were sanded down to decreases their thickness so the owner didn't have to make a trip to the dealer. The need to assure that the thickness was as marked is always recommended.

 

 

On the camhead it is still a good idea to mike the spheres before figuring the new ones needed.

 

As you say, you are also measuring the shim wear when measuring the valve clearance. That means you REALLY should know the ACTUAL MEASURED sphere thickness before figuring out what you need for a new sphere. The number stamped on the sphere is meaningless IF there is significant sphere wear, or the sphere has been altered.

 

IE-- If you have a (marked) 5.15 sphere, then determined that your valve lash is .05 too loose, but you have .05mm of wear on that 5.15 sphere then you would need to buy another (new unworn) 5.15 sphere.

If you ONLY went by the stamped number then you would incorrectly buy a 5.20 sphere.

 

The big difference here is when done at the dealer the tec just goes by the stamped number & if the clearance isn't correct after a sphere change out he just grabs another sphere from the bag on the counter & corrects the issue.

 

At home, a do-it-yourselfer needs to make another trip to the dealer if the new sphere doesn't produce the required end result lash numbers.

 

[OlGeezer]

I have seen more than a few "other" older valve adjuster shims that were sanded down to decreases their thickness so the owner didn't have to make a trip to the dealer. The need to assure that the thickness was as marked is always recommended.

 

 

I know people who do this! A friend of mine was telling me about the time he got out a pane of glass and fine grit sand paper and carefully sanded down his shims until they were where he wanted them to be. It took him all day long and, in the end, he had worn off his finger prints on his thumb and fore finger! I just shook my head and remembered "The cheapest thing on a BMW..."

 

[David R]

I have read on the kawasaki forum of sanding the shims. No way can I do as well as a surface grinder can.

I just buy em.

 

David

[fudge]

Found this file very useful for doing valve adjustment 'math'. I didn't create it, just passing it along:

 

Excel Valve Adjustment Spreadsheet