New "top-end" at 14,000 miles

[Nor Cal Woody]

Using approx. 1 1/2 qts per 1,000 miles. Finally, dealer takes look. Out of round cylanders and pistons. Under warranty.

 

Replaced cylenders, pistons, valves, and heads. Time to diagnose and repair, month and a half. Service manager implied that I was was source of problem in that I let bike warm to 3 - 4 bars before riding.

 

Now I start wear-in all over. UGGGHHH. Dealer said three other bikes were in for identical problem. What's with that? 2004 1150RT.

[Deadboy]

I doubt you did anything but are you serious about the 3-4 bars warm up prior to riding? I cannot imagine the heat coming off the bike by then (melting plastic at least).

 

Personally I give her around 15-30 seconds on full choke depending on how cold it is in the morning, then take it easy till I see 2 bars....30K so far and no problems….and no major oil consumption either….

[Thatman]

As the owner of a '04 RT who just had the spline's fail at 17k miles it would be icing on the cake if my cylinders were out of round.

[Eschelon1]

Who knows, maybe you just got a bad pair of cylinders. The owners manual does say to not let it idle too long with the choke on. Did you notice any smoke while riding?

 

Personally I start mine up with the choke idle it for about 15 to 30 seconds, as soon as the idle smooths out I take off. After it hits 1 bar I shut the choke off and keep er under 4K RPM untill I get about 4 bars.

 

Out of round cylinders normally occurs on rebuilds where the cylinders are not "stressed" properly before boring.

I suppose it could happen at the factory too if your bike was built during "Fasching"

 

[Nor Cal Woody]

No smoke, no melted plastic, no unusual smells.

 

Used considerable oil from day one. Reading posts on this forum I thought it was just a BMW feature. Annoying but to be expected. Guess it wasn't.

 

Wasn't overfilling, that was checked and discounted.

 

If I were the only one I would seriously question myself. However, when the dealer said there were three others in the shop at the same time as mine with the same problem me thinks maybe there is a larger problem.

 

Just hope this rebuild fixes the problem. I like the RT in all other respects. In fairness to the dealer, they did fix the problem, under warranty, even if it took a month and a half. It was raining most of the time anyway so didn't miss out on much.

 

Most oil burning posts on this forum are explained as "that's just a BMW twin characteristic". Why is that???

[Thatman]

As a fellow '04 RT owner wanna provide your VIN number? How about the 3 other bikes? Maybe they were all made around the same time.

[DogGone]

Here's an interesting slant.

 

If all four bikes were maintained and serviced by the same shop, could it be something the shop is doing wrong?

 

Most shops don't employ that many mechanics, and those that have multiple mechs usually assign like jobs to the same guy.

 

Also, if the bikes were all sold at this dealer it would be likely that all of them were initially set up by the same guy.

 

pete

[Ken H.]

Out of round cylinders and pistons.

Hummmm, I'm suspicious of the diagnosis. It's certainly a first heard here at any rate.

 

Echoing what the others have said though that letting the bike sit for a long time to 'warm up' is a no-no.

[DogGone]

Out of round cylinders and pistons.

Hummmm, I'm suspicious of the diagnosis. It's certainly a first heard here at any rate.

 

 

I have to agree. It's a very unusual diagnosis on bikes that have been out for a while. It's also very suspicious that there is this "cluster" of these diagnosis' at this one particular shop in the same timeframe.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out it's from something like an improperly calibrated torque wrench, or a mech improperly using it.

 

Remember the Mars explorer that augered a hole in the planet's surface because one team of engineers was working in metric and another in feet/inches? Intelligent, competent people can make errors.

 

I'll bet these guys have some 'splaining to do to BMW. Believe me, manufacturers notice these "local anomalies" and I would guess that they will be getting some visitors.

 

pete

[Bob Palin]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out it's from something like an improperly calibrated torque wrench, or a mech improperly using it.

Maybe the re-torqueing of the heads at the 600?

[Ken H.]

How many miles were on each of the four bikes (including yours) at the time of diagnosis that this was the problem?

[Nor Cal Woody]

The "600" was done at different dealer than 6,000 or 12,000. I don't know the mileage of the other three bikes with similar problem.

 

My VIN WB10499A34ZE90925, don't know the vins of other bikes.

 

Repair Order stated "checked leakdown R-6%/L-10%, compression R-140/L-145, removed heads and found excessive carbon buildup. Found valves pitted, guides loose. Renewed both cyls, pistons and heads / valves. Renewed oil."

 

Don't know exactly what that all means but it can't be good.

[Bob Palin]

Finally, dealer takes look. Out of round cylanders and pistons.

 

Repair Order stated "checked leakdown R-6%/L-10%, compression R-140/L-145, removed heads and found excessive carbon buildup. Found valves pitted, guides loose. Renewed both cyls, pistons and heads / valves. Renewed oil."

Given the second report where did the out of round report come from?

[DogGone]

I wondered the same thing. This could also be a csse of the mech having a favorite diagnosis. It isn't uncommon.

 

Does restore mean replace? I've never heard that before. I'm not aware of anything that can be done to the cylinders aside from replacing them. Can they be resleeved?

 

Something's not right...

pete

[bigboy]

DOES RESTORE MEAN REPLACE?

 

I can only think one of 2 things either they can be bored out and replace the rings or can use a glaze buster and then insert cord /hepolite rings. Or should i say that,s what is ussually done in uk, oh you can also have them resleeved at specialist machine shops.

 

This being said while recently reading through the history for my r1100rt i just happened to notice that during the 12000 mile service , apparently bmw tech had to RESEAL both cylinders well that,s a new term to me perhaps my bike suffered with major oil burn also i think i will endeavor to ask bmw exactly what the term reseal both cylinders mean,who knows it may shed a little more light on the problem.

derek

[DogGone]

If the cylinders are nikasil they can't be bored out. I'm pretty certain bmws have nikasil cylinders.

[Nor Cal Woody]

The only written report was the repair order that I quoted. Verbally I was told by the service mgr and owner that the cylinders and pistons were "out-of-round".

 

As to "renewed", the attached parts list with the repair order include cylinders (2), dowels, O-rings, pistone (2) valves (8), cylinder heads (2) and numerous other parts. They also said they "renewed my oil". Not sure that whoever wrote this repair order understands the definition of renew.

 

Anyway, they replaced everything with new parts. Ten (10) hours of labor between compression test, tear down and "renew".

 

Handwritten order says "check for out-of-round". Typed order reflects what was previously reported.

 

curiouser and curiouser.

[bigboy]

This post is fascinating.

 

Further reading of the replaced parts would suggest that the main problem was in the heads (loose valve guides)

big issues with oil usage here. This could lead a person to think that is it possible this machine has always run a little on the hot side if so can your dealer tell you was there any evidence of warping or twisting or hairline cracks to the heads . I may be wrong but knowing how stringent QC is at machine shops heads don,t normally leave with loose guides.

As i say this is only my personal thought but i think i would be Sitting down with the dealer principal for a friendly chap and cup of coffee just for my own piece of mind i would need it explained in simple terminology. I am saying this because if you boil it all down 14k is only 12/16 weeks running for some of us and it could easily have been a time bomb waiting to go off , Then there would have been a major court of enquiry.

 

ALL said and done the machine is now back in one piece and i hope it gives many bazillions of trouble free miles.

STAY UPRIGHT

DEREK

[bigboy]

If the cylinders are nikasil they can't be bored out. I'm pretty certain bmws have nikasil cylinders.

Just done some research on this apparently if a cylinder is nikasil it be grond down and then replated with a nickel silicon carbide mix for replating and then it is diamond honed the specialist in usa says that the cyclinder can be returned to beter than new cuondition. Wow technology at it,s best.

 

derek

[smiller]

Just done some research on this apparently if a cylinder is nikasil it be grond down and then replated with a nickel silicon carbide mix for replating and then it is diamond honed the specialist in usa says that the cyclinder can be returned to beter than new cuondition.

Seems like that might cost as much as (or at least a significant portion of) just buying new cylinders?

[BlueRidgeBoy]

I work for a German company (we build turbogenerator sets) and renew is Genglish for replace. In the airhead owner's manuals you will see it quite often (e.g. renew the spark plugs).

[Nor Cal Woody]

Glad to hear that renew means replace, thanks for the info.

Guess the point of all this is that at some point oil burning may be an indicator of a more serious problem that the old "thats just the nature of BMW twins".

 

Thanks for all the feedback. Hopefully I will have many problem free miles and this will be just a bump-in-the-road memory.

[Thatman]

If the cylinders are nikasil they can't be bored out. I'm pretty certain bmws have nikasil cylinders.

 

Actually they can be. Then you just get them re nikasiled. It is around $75-$100 per cylinder to have that done. The key to boring is if there is enough metal around the cylinder to do s.

[Calvin (no socks)]

With all those parts replaced it sounds like a "shotgun" approach.

And yes, a manufacturer does notice if parts ordering sets a "red flag" in the computers database. It could help isolate a problem, or localized condition. It knows if they are purchasing aftermarket items or getting supplies required from alternate sources. DAMHIK

[Rob L]

The only written report was the repair order that I quoted. Verbally I was told by the service mgr and owner that the cylinders and pistons were "out-of-round".

 

As to "renewed", the attached parts list with the repair order include cylinders (2), dowels, O-rings, pistone (2) valves (8), cylinder heads (2) and numerous other parts. They also said they "renewed my oil". Not sure that whoever wrote this repair order understands the definition of renew.

 

Anyway, they replaced everything with new parts. Ten (10) hours of labor between compression test, tear down and "renew".

 

Handwritten order says "check for out-of-round". Typed order reflects what was previously reported.

 

curiouser and curiouser.

If the cylinders were out of round, why replace the heads? My guess is that there was leakage between the head and the cylinders causing damage to both. Mind you this is just a guess, but why else would so many parts need replacing? One step further in this guess, if there was a leak at the cylinder/head junction, perhaps the 600 mile retorque was not done or was done improperly? This would explain why only this dealer has experienced these problems, they may be the one responsible for them! Again this is all conjecture, but this scenario makes sense to me.

[bmwkid]

Ok here is my story I have a 2002 R1150R. I have spent the last 26 years working in the automotive service field so when this bike started burning a little too much oil between oil changes I brought it to the attention of my dealer and BMWNA. I was told it was normal,but knew it was not. Finally at 23,000 miles the engine started to ping at high rpms and idle poorly no matter what was done to fix it.

 

I insisted on the motor being torn down and what was found? Out of round cylinders,not allowing the rings to seat properly. This also caused the damage to the exhaust valves and seats. The fix was to replace the complete top end.

 

The result I got a bike back that did not surge,would do power wheelies in first gear and ran smoother than it ever had. The best part is now with 47,000 miles on the bike it barely burns any oil.

 

There is also a copy of a BMWNA Service Bulletin out there that descibes this very problem on early R1100's..

 

Oh and there a couple of auto manufactures that have the same problem.

[bmwkid]

http://www.nmpcs.com/r11r/ping.pdf

 

[Nor Cal Woody]

I was beginning to think I was the only one to experience this problem. Glad to hear that it was successfully addressed and the bike is running well.

 

Apparently it has extended to the ll50 servies as well.

[smiller]

'If the engine contines to use oil after 6000 miles'...

 

Don't they all..? Seems like it take a lot longer than this for most oilheads to settle in...