US training troops in Mali?

[Paul Mihalka]

From BBC news:

 

"The US military commander in Africa says the Pentagon made mistakes in its training of Malian troops now trying to oust Islamists from the north.

 

Gen Carter Ham of United States Africa Command (Africom) said its forces had failed to train Malian troops on "values, ethics and a military ethos".

 

He was speaking after reports of abuses by Mali government troops taking part in the French-led counter-offensive."

 

Is it realistic to think that anybody from the USA or other western country can train troops in Mali and other wild places "values, ethics and military ethos"?

[taylor1]

I am sure anything is possible . Just look at all the missionary work that has been done in the corners of the earth. They swayed very backward cultures in their belief of Christianity. I know it is not the same thing, but I would guess that there are parallels

[philbytx]

Preaching at people to "love thy neighbor" is a tad different than teaching people to kill. Especially when said trained folks are confronted with people firing weapons at them!

IMHO, the US should stay the hell out of other peoples fights. Historically, it never worked for any other society/country and why we haven't learned from that/or simply choose to ignore it, still confounds me.

 

[Paul Mihalka]

I am sure anything is possible . Just look at all the missionary work that has been done in the corners of the earth. They swayed very backward cultures in their belief of Christianity. I know it is not the same thing, but I would guess that there are parallels

How long did it take? And military trainers are not exactly missionaries...

[Rougarou]

From BBC news:

 

"The US military commander in Africa says the Pentagon made mistakes in its training of Malian troops now trying to oust Islamists from the north.

 

Gen Carter Ham of United States Africa Command (Africom) said its forces had failed to train Malian troops on "values, ethics and a military ethos".

 

He was speaking after reports of abuses by Mali government troops taking part in the French-led counter-offensive."

 

Is it realistic to think that anybody from the USA or other western country can train troops in Mali and other wild places "values, ethics and military ethos"?

 

When I worked with foreign troops, it was not my job to teach values or ethics, but to only teach weapons systems and tactics.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Is it realistic to think that anybody from the USA or other western country can train troops in Mali and other wild places "values, ethics and military ethos"?

 

Should that even be our responsibility? We teach them how the weapons work, but we don't command them in battle. Mali is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, so their government is aware of what constitutes "abuses" in war and ought to be held accountable for the actions of troops under their command.

[taylor1]

I did not think this was a post on whether we should or should not. And I understand the difference between war and love thy neighbor. The question was posed as can we change their values ethics, and beliefs. As far as how long did it take. I think that society as a general will always be a work in progress

[philbytx]

HERE is some information on Mali. A former French colony, it is a tribal society and 90 percent Muslim. Let the damn French worry about their old colonial empire.

 

And as a parallel, how has Afghanistan worked for us so far?.....BAH !!

 

 

 

 

[MT Wallet]

+1 to both your posts. Why should we give a damn how they win in their land in their culture? The U.S. always gets bogged down with this "nation building" mentality when the job is to win. They are involved in a dirty, unpleasant and messy process. It is not their goal to be sensitive to my squeamishness about it.

[Paul Mihalka]

General Ham says "we have failed". We shouldn't even try it.

[Ken H.]

IMHO, the US should stay the hell out of other peoples fights.

Amen to that.

 

And Canada seems just itching to stick our noses in it (Mali) too. Damned if I can understand why.

 

Historically, it never worked for any other society/country and why we haven't learned from that/or simply choose to ignore it, still confounds me.

Definition of insanity... keep doing over and over... expecting different...

[MT Wallet]

I can't agree more. If we only have to transport French troops or supply intel or some drone strikes fine. Otherwise I don't want us to get sucked into this one. I seem to remember following the French on land once before--it didn't end well.

[philbytx]

Well said. The US thought it could do better than the French (well, who couldn't really I suppose!) and the Brits and Russians for that matter!

 

It's a pity they don't mandate world history in U.S schools. Perhaps our politicians might have learned something useful.

 

Said with tongue firmly in cheek !!

[John Ranalletta]

Don't forget wars are a growth industry employing tens of thousands of soldiers and adding to GNP through purchases of materiel, food, arms, etc. Plus, wars distract the populace (sheep). As one of our recent past presidents said, "We'll fight the war in Iraq while Americans go to Disney World."

 

How many members here rely on sales to the military for their livelihood? Who's the first to refuse the $

 

Go to 1:40

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

I don't see why we shouldn't try. I mean, we won over the hearts and minds of the people of Vietnam, didn't we?

[SteveHebert]

The problem is that it has to be done by someone. That is what we do and what we have always done. There has to be a world super power/deterent and whether we agree or not, it is the US. If not, the entire world WILL collapse into chaos. It is a fact and I believe we all know that, whether we want to believe it or not. I wish it could be different but it is not.

[philbytx]

Why?

Why and Why?

Why?

Would it???

 

Is it a fact, based upon what empirical evidence?

 

It could be different.....but who has tried?

 

Just sayin'

 

 

[lawnchairboy]

Africom has been an ongoing enterprise for years. Nothing new.

[John Ranalletta]

Don't forget about the $ that pour into re-election campaigns to support military funding

 

[SteveHebert]

I agree Phil that it would be great to change things. I would love to see a unified world, a stable economic system and have no threat to anyones way of life.

 

History has shown us that when ever there is a void, it will be filled by someone. Most that have filled the voids do not have the publics best interests in mind.

 

There needs to be a United Nations (that actually works) pressure to keep things at bay.

 

I wish I knew the answers but......

 

 

[philbytx]

Me too mate......

[MT Wallet]

The problem is that it has to be done by someone. That is what we do and what we have always done. There has to be a world super power/deterent and whether we agree or not, it is the US. If not, the entire world WILL collapse into chaos. It is a fact and I believe we all know that, whether we want to believe it or not. I wish it could be different but it is not.

 

Steve I mean no disrespect with the following comments and I thank you for your service.

So why do we think it always has to be the U.S.? It's nice to see the French doing the heavy lifting. I recall that type of thinking in about 1966 in SE Asia and a domino theory as justification to ramp up Vietnam. The problem was we didn't have the will to apply suffient force consistently to get the job done. I don't want to start a discussion of that war. I am just citing it because we still have a reluctance to get messy and brutal to acomplish our ends. Think Tora Bora when we relied on mercenaries to block Bin Ladens retreat and they sold us out. The powers that were didn't want to insert U.S troops to do the job and look how it went. Again reluctance. So no, I don't want us getting sucked in once again only to pacify the populance and nation build.

[Ken H.]

The problem is that it has to be done by someone. That is what we do and what we have always done. There has to be a world super power/deterent and whether we agree or not, it is the US. If not, the entire world WILL collapse into chaos. It is a fact and I believe we all know that, whether we want to believe it or not. I wish it could be different but it is not.

I don’t think that’s true at all. At least not anymore. Most ‘chaos’ these days are very localized events. Between relatively small (as a % of world population) groups/governments in small geographic areas. As the results of many of these have shown, so called super-powers are relatively ineffective in changing their courses or outcomes. Indeed I thing there’s an argument to be made that they would likely resolve themselves quicker if big governments/countries kept their noses out of it.

 

But alas as Estinto points out, merchanting death is big business.

[Selden]

Is it realistic to think that anybody from the USA or other western country can train troops in Mali and other wild places "values, ethics and military ethos"?

I've been thinking a lot about this, and came to the conclusion that if we don't attempt to teach such values as part of military training, all we are doing is teaching people to kill. There has to be more.

[Paul Mihalka]

What I'm afraid of is that the attempt to teach such values in those cultures is a exercise in futility. It is not a issue of teaching "values, ethics and military ethos" but of changing a culture. I think that can happen only from the inside, and probably takes a few hundred years.

[Dave McReynolds]

There are so many things in the life of nations and the lives of individuals that we would like to do, and feel a moral pressure to do, but have no realistic probability of achieving. So we don't do those things, and instead marshall our resources for those things we have a realistic probability of achieving.

 

I agree with those who have said we have no realistic probability of changing the values of foreign cultures. We have a few values right here at home that could stand some changing, if only we could reach a consensus of what exactly needs changing and how to go about doing it.

 

Where the mission has clearly stated military goals that competent generals have agreed are achievable, like in WWII and the first gulf war, we have been successful. Where the mission has become bogged down with political baggage, like most of the other conflicts we have been involved in since WWII, we have not been successful. Some of those other conflicts may have been morally justifiable and worth fighting, but they have been a net loss for our country and we are a weaker nation for having taken them on.

 

And, I would argue, a more corrupt and morally bankrupt nation for having taken them on. For example, when the protest movement brought the Vietnam war to a halt, the conclusion was that it was the draft that fueled the protests, which is probably correct. One conclusion that could have been drawn from that could have been to limit future wars to those that had enough general support among the population, like WWII, that the population would not rise up in protest, even if their sons were being drafted to fight in it. Instead, the conclusion that was drawn was to eliminate the draft, correctly predicting that nobody would protest very hard if they or their children didn't have any "skin" in the game. To me, this is a corrupt and morally bankrupt conclusion, but it does seem effective in allowing the government to pursue whatever wars it wants to get involved in without any serious objection by the public.

[philbytx]

Unfortunately Selden, there really isn't .

 

You can lead the horse to water, show it the water, taste the water but you can't MAKE it drink. s

 

Ok...for example: Let's start here in the US of A.

 

Mandatory Ethics training is required in most all of the Financial Services industry.

 

I rest my case......

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

If we can't change the culture in Chicago.

 

If we can't change the culture in Compton.

 

If we can't change the culture in Detroit.

 

Why does any one have the temerity to believe we can do it in Mali, Afganistan, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran? Money and lives wasted.

[Shaman97]

It appears the 'decision makers' think that inside every non-American there is an American waiting to burst out.

 

Haven't found the money trail on this one, yet. But I just know it's there.

[beemerboy]

If we can't change the culture in Chicago.

 

If we can't change the culture in Compton.

 

If we can't change the culture in Detroit.

 

Why does any one have the temerity to believe we can do it in Mali, Afganistan, Pakistan, Iraq or Iran? Money and lives wasted.

 

I'd like to point out what those three cities have in common but the one word I'd use would shut down this thread.

[John Ranalletta]

At least three things they have in common: generations of poverty, discrimination and hopelessness.

[majrosebud]

+1 Estinto.

[Ken H.]

What I'm afraid of is that the attempt to teach such values in those cultures is a exercise in futility. It is not a issue of teaching "values, ethics and military ethos" but of changing a culture. I think that can happen only from the inside, and probably takes a few hundred years.

I would go a step further and say you can’t teach values at all. Values are internally actualized, not instilled upon by others. Especially by outsiders. The best one culture can hope to do to change another is to lead by example. Be something others want to be. “Want” being another self-created, rather than imposed realization. And even then it’s an uphill battle as the core beliefs that underpin values and wants are very deeply ingrained in the members of a society. Especially when a god is part of the context. As it so often is.

 

We also fail because we fall victim or our own AADD disease. I remember seeing a quote (can’t remember who) at the start of the Iraq conflict – “The US enters into these wars thinking in terms of 5 years, they (meaning middle-eastern opposition) thinks in terms of 100 years.” They know we will quickly, for lack of a better term, grow bored.

 

[Ken H.]

It appears the 'decision makers' think that inside every non-American there is an American waiting to burst out.

+1

 

Nicely put.

[John Ranalletta]

Nassim Taleb sums it up (paraphrased): "When an airplane crashes, the probability of the next crash decreases because the industry learns from the disaster and applies those learnings forward." Not so with American foreign policy. Every disaster, Korea, VN, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria spawns the next disaster because leaders fail to reckon with what went wrong, take the blame and fix it going forward. Our attempts to lessen social and political fragility worldwide creates magnitudes more, in fact.

[beemerboy]

At least three things they have in common: generations of poverty, discrimination and hopelessness.

 

Nice try, accurate but too low level. Think again.

[Mike]

Is it realistic to think that anybody from the USA or other western country can train troops in Mali and other wild places "values, ethics and military ethos"?

I've been thinking a lot about this, and came to the conclusion that if we don't attempt to teach such values as part of military training, all we are doing is teaching people to kill. There has to be more.

 

Having been through military training, I think that we do have the capability to mold attitudes and ethics, but if you attempt to do so in a culture that is in great social and moral distress, it's likely to be a lost cause.

 

Recognizing that others who have been there may tell me I'm full of baloney (or something else), most of the folks I've talked to who have spent time in Afghanistan don't have high hopes that our efforts to train their military will have much lasting effect. Some have told me that the living conditions and cultural values are so distant from ours that the local trainees are largely untrainable, and that they expect conditions to revert rapidly upon our departure.

[John Ranalletta]

who have spent time in Afghanistan don't have high hopes that our efforts to train their military

A client's employee who goes to Afghanistan frequently to work with the military suggests that any Afghan who is financially or intellectually able, has left the country; and, there is no upside to being a government leader unless one's in on the drug trade and able to play the Taliban for security and US for $.

[Ken H.]

Having been through military training, I think that we do have the capability to mold attitudes and ethics, but if you attempt to do so in a culture that is in great social and moral distress, it's likely to be a lost cause.

It’s the old Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs thing. Basics fist. What good is a well-trained militia in fighting starvation? Until a society meets the basic needs of its populous it will never have stability. What to will the hearts & minds of the(fill in name of favorite 3rd world country here) _______________ people? Send shovels, plows and farmers not guns, ammo and soldiers. It’s hard to eat a RPG.

[tallman]

Since 22% of America's children live in poverty, and frequently don't get enough to eat, often sustaining on breakfast/lucnch from school, perhaps we should look closer to home.

[Ken H.]

Since 22% of America's children live in poverty, and frequently don't get enough to eat, often sustaining on breakfast/lucnch from school, perhaps we should look closer to home.

Amen to that.

Which is actually part of my point. How can we expect the world to embrace our values when our own house is in such poor shape?

 

[philbytx]

Just in case you were interested in how the US measures poverty.

[Selden]

On a personal note, the situation in Mali has dashed my fantasy vacation, to the Festival au Désert, which had a 10-year run in Essakene, which is about 3 hours past Timbuktu — in other worlds, past the middle of nowhere.

 

Rock, blues, and camel racing.

 

 

It looks like a documentary film will be released this spring: Essakane Film Trailer (Youtube)

 

The world has lost another cultural resource.

[tallman]

Phil,

 

Very aware.

 

I see hungry children every day.

 

Some might have a meal during the weekend.

Some have to scrounge.

 

Regardless of any should have/shouldn't have arguments, bottom line, many of America's children are hungry.

 

And, many have no medical coverage either so the adults down't take them for basic care.

 

This may follow a pregnancy where pre-natal care is non-existent.

 

Don't want to hijack this thread and we've talked this one out before.

 

 

So, back on topic, we're required to teach values/ethics...

[John Ranalletta]

Some people making real, positive differences in others' lives.

 

Choose any story for inspiration. Turning Point

 

For those of you who have ridden in Eureka Springs Echo Clinic

[Rocer]

"The world has lost another cultural resource"

 

Selden, you may find words of encouragement in this morning's CBC radio program Fresh Air that did a special on the music of Mali. Unfortunately the music played throughout this program has not been included in the replay for copyright reasons.

 

Thanks for your post about this issue. I look forward to exploring Mali music further.