Brake pads, Sintered or Organic

[Rapala 50]

Getting ready to replace the brake pads on my 08 RT, wanted to know what I should be replacing them with. Looking at putting the EBC double h sintered on the front and EBC organic on the rear..Is this correct ?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rapala 49

 

The 1200RT uses SINTERED METAL all around as OEM. BMW doesn't give us the pad rating but some use the HH with good success.

 

Keep in mind that some brands of HH pads will score the rotors faster but that isn't a big deal except for looks.

 

[WestyLancs]

Apart from one dealer front pad change, I've used EBC HH all round for the 52,000 miles I've done with no apparent ill effects.

They work well for me, wet or dry, and cost a whole lot less than BMW pads.

[I812]

I had an issue when I changed my pads out. Pad material had built up causing and vibration when brakes applied. And DR was very helpful(as always!).

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=711818&Searchpage=11&Main=64020&Words=rotor+hone&Search=true#Post711818

[dirtrider]

Evening

 

Yes, definitely bed or break the pads in correctly (especially some HH types).

 

Some brake pads are the abrasive type & others (usually higher performance are adherent friction type) while still others are a combination of both.

 

On any of the adherent friction types if proper break-in & bedding isn't used an uneven layer of pad material could transfer to the rotors causing sever brake judder. One of the keys to bedding the adherent type pads is not coming to a complete stop during the bedding process as that almost assures uneven pad transfer to the rotors.

 

Problems can also arise when switching between different pad material types without properly cleaning & prepping the brake rotors.

 

[JR356]

Look at the Carbon Lorraine brand pads that Beemer Boneyard sells.

Sintered pads at a reasonable price,plus fast shipping.

 

Put a set on my GS and they worked well in all conditions

during my just completed 10 day trip.

 

JR356

[Rapala 50]

Does anyone know what the actual EBC part numbers are for the double h sintered pads. I have a 2008 rt

[Guest Kakugo]

Does anyone know what the actual EBC part numbers are for the double h sintered pads. I have a 2008 rt

 

According to the EBC catalog I have under my nose right now front pads should be FA335HH and rear pads should be FA363 (organic) and FA363HH (sintered).

 

 

On the issue of Carbone Lorraine pads (now CL Brakes) AA3+. I am really happy with them: they were really, really cheap (eBay special) and they work well. However they may not last as much I'd like. I could get 10000km square out of the OE Brembo. My CL AA3+ currently have 7000km and they are pretty thin already. I hope to be able to get the same mileage as the Brembo... otherwise they are so cheap they may be worth an extra change.

[Guest Kakugo]

Apart from one dealer front pad change, I've used EBC HH all round for the 52,000 miles I've done with no apparent ill effects.

They work well for me, wet or dry, and cost a whole lot less than BMW pads.

 

How do you compare EBC HH to the OE Brembo? Just had a look on eBay and cannot find good deals on CL at the moment so may give EBC a try, though I have never been very satisfied with their products.

[WestyLancs]

Hi Kakugo,

I may not be much use to you, for two reasons.

Firstly the RT was a step up from a little Honda 125 after a 13 year break from bikes - marriage kids etc -

so by comparison, the Brembos were awesome.

Secondly, I tend to be relaxed (read granny) when riding, and usually two up, so don't use the brakes in 'anger' much.

 

I certainly can't say I noticed any difference for my braking style, when I switched, and there's certainly no loss of mileage or decrease in wet braking response.

 

I've had no problems with disc warping, excess wear, or brake judder as others have reported, and am quite happy with them.

There may be better out there, but at the moment the EBC HH suit me and the bike fine.

 

Found this link (German text, but has English explanation) which may help, albeit 4 years old by now.

Brake pad comparison tests R1200GS Motorad 14/2008

[Guest Kakugo]

Hi Kakugo,

I may not be much use to you, for two reasons.

Firstly the RT was a step up from a little Honda 125 after a 13 year break from bikes - marriage kids etc -

so by comparison, the Brembos were awesome.

Secondly, I tend to be relaxed (read granny) when riding, and usually two up, so don't use the brakes in 'anger' much.

 

I certainly can't say I noticed any difference for my braking style, when I switched, and there's certainly no loss of mileage or decrease in wet braking response.

 

I've had no problems with disc warping, excess wear, or brake judder as others have reported, and am quite happy with them.

There may be better out there, but at the moment the EBC HH suit me and the bike fine.

 

Found this link (German text, but has English explanation) which may help, albeit 4 years old by now.

Brake pad comparison tests R1200GS Motorad 14/2008

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

I am asking myself what those Germans where thinking when using SBK-5 in the test... those are very sporty pads requiring some warm up to work properly. Great track pads but wouldn't recommend them on a touring bike.

[Fubar]

Yes, definitely bed or break the pads in correctly (especially some HH types).

 

Problems can also arise when switching between different pad material types without properly cleaning & prepping the brake rotors.

Alright, DR, hopefully I won't sound a complete idiot here.

 

What is involved with bedding/cleaning/prepping new pads? Are sintered pads OEM, required or just a good idea?

 

My old bike never needed new pads in 80K miles while this one is in desperate need on the rear after only 21K while the fronts look almost new! (I've never done anything special on cages except turning the rotors if needed.)

I've got to get new pads before I ride again, period.

[Selden]

What is involved with bedding/cleaning/prepping new pads? Are sintered pads OEM, required or just a good idea?

In my experience, the OEM pads are quieter, but dirtier. Beemer Boneyard sells to varieties of brake pads; I only have experience with the CL A3 pads from Beemer Boneyard:

 

We stock the full line of Carbone Lorraine sintered metal brake pads for BMW motorcycles. We carry both the A3 sport touring compound pads as well as the more aggressive SBK-5 compound HH rated pads where applicable.

Re preparation, whether changing pad type or not, it's a good idea to clean the old pad residue from the rotor. You don't have to remove the wheel. Remove the old pads, then spin the wheel by hand, while holding a folded (so that it hits both sides of the rotor) piece of ~100 grit garnet paper. This will remove the residue from the old pads. Then thoroughly clean each rotor with a paper or cloth towel and brake parts cleaner.

 

I recently replaced the front rotors on my 1999 RT (@103,000 miles), and over a few days, it was quite obvious by color change that a layer of material from the pads was being deposited on the rotors.

 

There are two basic types of brake pad friction mechanisms: abrasive friction and adherent friction . In general, all pads display a bit of each, with abrasive mechanisms dominating the lower temperature ranges while adherent mechanisms come more into play as pad temperature increases. Both mechanisms allow for friction or the conversion of Kinetic energy to Thermal energy, which is the function of a brake system, by the breaking of molecular bonds in vastly different ways.

 

The abrasive mechanism generates friction or energy conversion by the mechanical rubbing of the brake pad material directly on the rotor disc. In a crystalline sense, the weaker of the bonds in the two different materials is broken. This obviously results in mechanical wear of both the pad and the rotor. Consequently, both pads and rotors are replaced when they are physically worn to their limit and are too thin to endure further service.

 

The adherent mechanism is altogether different. In an adherent system, a thin layer of brake pad material actually transfers and sticks (adheres) on to the rotor face. The layer of pad material, once evenly established on the rotor, is what actually rubs on the brake pad. The bonds that are broken, for the conversion of Kinetic to Thermal energy, are formed instantaneously before being broken again. It is this brake pad-on-transferred brake pad material interaction on a molecular level that yields the conversion process.

 

With the adherent mechanism there is much reduced rotor wear as compared to abrasive mechanism, but it's not a free lunch – pads now become the primary wear element in the braking system. And even though rotors are not mechanically worn down with adherent systems, they still will need to be replaced on a regular basis due to cracking reaching a point of failure if they are exposed to intense, repetitive thermal cycling. This is why race teams throw out rotors that are actually as thick or thicker than when they were brand new. It's due to the an adherent brake pad transfer layer!

 

...[T]he objective of the bed-in process is to deposit an even layer of brake pad material, or transfer layer, on the rubbing surface of the rotor disc. Note the emphasis on the word even, as uneven pad deposits on the rotor face are the number one, and almost exclusive cause of brake judder or vibration.

[Fubar]

So your saying "pad-slapping", i.e., take off the old pads, slap on the new one and off you go, is a bad thing?

 

I notice your emphasis of garnet sandpaper. I've never heard of that. Why is it specified? Wouldn't ant sandpaper designed for metal be fine?

[racer7]

kakugo

On the R1200RT, the EBC HH pad has a noticeably higher coefficient and initial bite than the stock pad, effectively making lever or pedal effort lower. In addition, because the stock rear RT pad is so soft, an EBC HH slightly "hardens" the feel at the rear, maing up a little, but not enough, for the bikes spongy and annoying numb rear brake. (The rear brake feel of older models with non-linked brakes is far superior to any of the linked brake models).

I strongly prefer the EBC HH to the stock pad for feel and effectiveness alone but they also dust less. However, I think their dust is bit more corrosive due to the metals content of it. By coating my wheels with a commercial product called Keep Clean Wheel(chemically similar to a waterproof sunscreen base without the oils). the paint is effectively sealed to prevent discoloration from wet brake dust and cleanup remains easy..

[Selden]

I notice your emphasis of garnet sandpaper. I've never heard of that. Why is it specified? Wouldn't ant sandpaper designed for metal be fine?

I don't know why, but if I were to guess, it would be the silicon-carbide (wet-or-dry) paper is more likely to leave behind abrasive residue.

 

DR?

[Fubar]

Well after reading several other threads and consulting the manual (gasp!) I find the specs for my '09 RT is sintered front and organic rear. Why is not mentioned.

 

Other sources point out that that sintered pads are designed for stainless steel rotors and produce enough heat - 150 F more - that they shouldn't be used on cast, ductile or gray iron rotors.

 

My new question: are my rotors stainless? The manual doesn't offer this info nor does the BMW website. If they are stainless, why organic pads in the back instead of the sintered?

[Guest Kakugo]

I suspect the only reason we get organic rear pads is to reduce noise: BMW has an organic front pads available for the R1200GS for "customers who complain about brake noise".

Also CL Brakes (formerly Carbone Lorraine) recommends using the sintered RX3 rear brake compound for all Hexhead and Camhead applications. So far I haven't heard a single complaint from people using RX3 about excessive disc wear, bluing etc, me included.

I had a friend of mine with an R1150R who complained about how poor braking was. The R1150R OE pads are organic made by Textar. I convinced him to replace them with sintered CL brake pads front and rear and he rode many many happy miles before swapping the bike for a K1200.

[dirtrider]

Morning Fubar

 

There seems to be some confusion on 1200 hexhead rear brake material. (even BMW isn't clear on this)

 

The manual does list the rear on the 1200RT as organic but the BMW parts manual lists metallic for rears on the 1200RT with ABS.

 

As far as I know the rears are metallic on the 1200RT with ABS. There was an organic replacement on the 1200R without ABS brakes (I can't verify this)

 

I do have a few original rear brake pads from various 1200RT's (circa 2005-2009) in a bucket in my shop & a quick look this morning they all look to be metallic.

 

[Hall Vince]

I've always run sintered on my RT.

I replaced the OE rear disc which had done about 50,000 miles give or take and I am a hard user of the rear brake on a daily basis.

 

I replaced it with EBC and run EBC pads. I have a spare front wheel with new EBC discs on that and prefer them to the OE discs with OE pads TBH.

 

I don't like the EBC pads on the OE discs mind, Slow to warm up when I last tried them, fine with the EBC discs of course.

hth

\v/

[Fubar]

Good information, all. Thanks again.

 

After looking at the pad material front and rear, my uneducated eyes could see no difference twixt the two. So, I'm going with BikeMaster Sintered Brake Pads from Motorcycle Superstore. On sale ($27) and 5 star reviews from all posters. Guess what I'm doing this weekend?

 

[Fubar]

New pads went on fine, no problems at all.

 

The wear I mentioned earlier was on the outboard pad, the inner had about 1/3 the material left. The outer was worn so much that at one edge the pad backing metal was rubbed slightly.

No damage seen on the rotor but I can only imagine the problems if FLRider hadn't seen that when we took the wheel off. Never hurts to have another set of eyes on a project.

Additionally, the old material does not have the same copper look to it as the replacements so I now suspect that they were not sintered and are organic as indicated in the riders manual, evidenced in part by the dust quantity.

 

Time to shower then ride (a great way to dry off, ya know).

[Fubar]

Well, I've run about 100 miles (mixed in-town and country). No shudder or grippy spots, no problems at all. I didn't do a lot to clean my rotor, no sanding at all. Only difference is a feeling that the brakes grab quicker/sharper with the lever. Just my perception?

 

Several have mentioned in other posts that they sit at red lights with their foot on the brake. Wouldn't this contribute to a build up of material on the hot rotor and make a slightly thicker section thus making the shudder/pulsation that some have noted? I try not to sit with the rear engaged preferring both feet on the ground and the fronts lightly engaged to keep the brake lights on.

 

BTW: Prior post is wrong, swap the references to inner and outer pads.

[malcolmblalock]

As to sitting at a red light with the brakes on, the service manager at the local dealership says that's how warped rotors happen. Hot rotors against cold pads and calipers cause the warpage. His solution--try not to use the brakes at stop lights (after wheels have stopped rotating), or if you must, hold the brakes lightly, just enough to keep from rolling.

 

His "theory" has some plausibility, IMO. However, I'm not sure that's what causes warped rotors.

 

Just sharing this tidbit of information for others to chew on...

[racer7]

A single street stop won't put enough heat into anything to create much of a danger of warping- and a lot of what many think is a warped rotor is really uneven deposition of pad material on the rotor which creates erratic friction during rotation.

However, it can be very unwise in some systems to even stop a vehicle with extremely hot brakes without cooling rotors. Folks with recent model Corvettes often find on taking them to a track for play that stock rotors will crack even if they just stop with the brake off without cooling the rotor from track temp (about 1200 degrees or so) first. Bike rotors for street never get this hot, however- the sintered (copper, if EBC HH) pads for street use would never survive such temps..

 

[dirtrider]

As to sitting at a red light with the brakes on, the service manager at the local dealership says that's how warped rotors happen. Hot rotors against cold pads and calipers cause the warpage. His solution--try not to use the brakes at stop lights (after wheels have stopped rotating), or if you must, hold the brakes lightly, just enough to keep from rolling.

---

 

Morning siman00

 

Your service manager is feeding you typical uninformed lies that a lot of service managers seem to come by naturally.

 

First off, if the rotors are hot so are the brake pads as the pads create the friction to heat the rotor.

 

Second, if what he said was true then about every car, truck, & motorcycle operating on the road would have warped rotors.

 

Third, under most normal on-road type braking there are very very few actual warped rotors. In the majority of cases of brake rotors replaced for being warped or brake repairs for pulsation issues the problem is NOT warped rotors but either pad disposition problems or stained rotors from oxidation.

 

In one way your service manager is close to being right though. With SOME brake pad material types, sitting stopped with VERY hot brakes & the brakes clamped on tight can lead to pad material transfer to the rotors in that one spot. That pad transfer can then be felt during future braking as a pulsation due to both rotor thickness variation & friction variation.

 

Most automobile companies fully test their OEM brake systems for being prone to pad disposition issues then work with the OEM pad & rotor suppliers to eliminate that potential. On after market pads you get what you get with film-transfer types being more prone to hot rotor pad transfer & future brake pulsation issues. The upside to film-transfer type brakes is less brake rotor wear.

 

[tallman]

"As to sitting at a red light with the brakes on, the service manager at the local dealership says that's how warped rotors happen"

 

total BS

 

tell the dealership owner immediately

you'll be doing him a favor (owner)

 

We saw a slew of warped rotors (front) after the press demos

years back.

A certain dealership bought the whole group of bikes and sold them at discount.

We had 3 bikes stop w/issues (we were about 250 miles from that other dealership) w/front rotors from that fleet of bikes.

 

Some attributed it to rapid/repetition of high speed accel and then total braking tests.

Who knows?

Could be bad batch of rotors.

 

Whatever.

 

If under normal use keeping brake on at stop warps rotors I'll eat one...

[racer7]

Unless measured to prove it, those "warped rotors" were almost certainly caused by uneven deposition of pad material (which is sometimes visible and sometimes NOT readily visible, especially to an untrained eye).

 

What you described is in fact the classic way pad deposition happens. Its caused by incorrect use of a system not bedded in, when a system is susceptible to it and many are not.

 

Many setups are not at all prone to deposition issues but some are. When a pad / rotor combo is susceptible, the best way to avoid it is to properly heat cycle and cool the new pads/rotors- usually be a half dozen or so moderate slowings from perhaps 60-80 mph to 20-30 mph- but NOT stopping completely with a hot pad in contact with the rotor- that's what causes the deposition. After the pad are bedded, normal full stops can be made.

 

Sometimes it takes only a rotor change for this ugly phenomenon to show itself. On one of my track cars, the combo of AP race rotors and Performance Friction races pads worked very well right out of the box yet the same pads run on Coleman rotors would create horrible deposition probelms that about shoo the front end off the car at race speeds- but they went away after about 40-50 minutes of track time as the deposition layer wore more evenly. The difference n the rotors was that the APs were run in on a brake dyno with race pads during manufacture so were delivered fuly ready for immediate race use while the Colemans were not.

 

Because of the existence of some bad combos and that there is no way to identify ahead what combo can have an issue, racers often use the guideline of not putting new pads and new rotors on a vehicle at the same time, unless the combo is proven. The rule, simply stated, is old pads with new rotors OR old rotors with new pads.

[David R]

Thank all of you I learned a lot here.

 

David

[malcolmblalock]

One comment about mine. I bought the bike with 12,500 miles on the odo. Brakes worked perfectly. No shimmy, no shake. Solid as a rock. However, after almost 36K miles, the rotors were either out of parallel (thick and thin spots) or warped pretty severely. Braking in a curve was actually dangerous. I don't ride hard; I'm an old guy. So, I'm sure the rotors never got really hot while riding mine. I did a few "panic" stops for practice once in a while, but kept rolling without stopping for the calipers to either bond to the rotors or warp them.

 

I actually believe it's a case of non-uniform hardness of the rotor metal, so that the rotor wears differentially, leaving thick and thinner spots rather than "warping".

 

In any case, and I've found that arguing with the service manager is pointless (with him, it's ALWAYS the customer's fault, no matter what goes wrong). That's why I go there only for warranty work.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon siman00

 

Your front brake hand lever is your friend here.

 

If you can feel a lot of pulsations (kick back) in the lever then you probably have warped rotors or severe thickness variation (pretty unlikely).

 

If you get brake pulsation but can't feel it in the brake lever then you are probably looking at pad transfer or rotor staining.

 

If you wash the bike then park it for a couple of days without thoroughly heating the brakes to dry the pads before parking you might have rotor staining.

 

Also, see if your rotors freely float on the mounting bolts. If those are crudded up or stuck the rotors can heat/expand/warp & cause braking disturbance.

 

[malcolmblalock]

Thanks, DR. Actually, those rotors are gone now; the dealer replaced them just before the 36K warranty ran out.

 

I had very little feedback through the brake lever--there might have been a little feedback, but very little.

 

What I did feel was a jerking feeling in my arms as if the lever were being squeezed very rapidly (ie per revolution of the wheel)and then released just as quickly. I know the feeling on cars when the brake pedal pulsates; on the bike, I really didn't have that sensation. When slowing for a stop light or stop sign, I could feel pulls and easing off as the bike slowed to a stop.

 

I truly don't know if the rotors were warped or were out of parallel, but I know the bike was unsafe in curves because of the pulsating through the handlebars.

 

New rotors fixed the problem, and that sensation has not returned in the last 23K miles.

[dirtrider]

Evening siman00

 

With little or no lever feed back that almost assures a pad transfer problem or rotor staining issue.

 

Definitely thickness variation "will" cause lever pulsation & very heavy rotor warpage can cause lever pulsation but light to moderate rotor warpage with floating or semi floating rotors usually doesn't cause much lever disturbance.

 

[malcolmblalock]

Thanks, DR. It's good to understand better what happened...