Don't ignore a seeping outer FD seal ...

[mneblett]

At ~1100 mi., my one-month old '12 RT had its final drive outer seal replaced yesterday (the one on the right side, facing out).

 

Key lesson learned: What looked like a *tiny* bit of seepage turned out to be an unseen big leak -- about 70cc in only ~400 mi. (only 110cc was still in the FD).

 

Longer version: I noted a bit of oil residue on the rim Friday morning and initially thought it must be from the FD inner seal -- the FD outer seal is quite a ways laterally to the right from the rim, so it can't directly drip onto the rim.

 

The odd thing, though, was the oil pattern on the rim only covered about 1/2 of the rim. If it were the inner seal, the oil should be dripping off the bottom of the FD and land on the entire rim. On closer inspection, the entire rear face of the FD was dry.

 

That only left the outer seal. Removal of the black plastic cover which rotates with the axle tube confirmed this. The oil was getting past the seal and flinging off from the cover ring over ~1/2 of the cover ring's circumference. Apparently, a small amount of the FD oil that was being ejected from the FD was getting blown inward and landing on the rim -- the important point being that most of the oil left the bike with no trace, so what I saw as a "small" seepage was actually a significant problem (assuming the FD oil was changed at the 600 mi. service (at ~700 mi.) and the correct amount of oil was installed, at least 70cc of the 180cc of oil was lost in only 400 miles!

 

If I had choosen to ignore this "minor" seepage until I got back from the MOA rally, I'm pretty confident I would have been stranded with a drained/roasted the FD before the 2200 mi. trip was done. Having already experienced two on-the-road long trip FD failures with the prior generation FD, I would not have been a happy camper with a third failure.

 

Moral: Never assume "minor" seepage can "wait."

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Mark

Not on the list for the 600mi check.

600 mi check

Just checked mine at exactly 600, dry but thanks for the heads up.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Danny

 

You do realize that maintenance schedule is from 9/2006? That was for the hexhead & before the final drive gear oil change recommended (lifetime final drive fluid era)

 

[mneblett]

DR is correct -- BMW released a service advisory and updated the service requirements to require FD oil replacement at the 600 mi. initial service. FD oil replacement was noted as having been done on my 600 mi. receipt, and I have no reason to believe it wasn't.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

You do realize that maintenance schedule is from 9/2006?

 

Well hell, I do now!

 

Edit: BTW, I just noticed my riders manual is silent to the FD lubricant as well as detail on what the maintenance schedule really is.

What is the recommended FD oil for 2012 RTs? TIA.

[mneblett]

BMW recommends its 75W90 synthetic. 75W140 is recommended for the tranny; some dealers use 75W140 in the FD, but that's not what's in the manual.

[racer7]

Sounds like you dodged one- that sort of leak on a clean new bike can be tough to spot and insidious...

I gather you're satisfied the seal failure wasn't caused by the start of a bearing failure but did you figure out why it was leaking? Damaged during assembly? Burr on the shaft or other debris in the seal? Or what? Seals are inherently simplistic and reliable devices - keep a sharp eye on the replacement in case whatver caused the first problem is still present....

[mneblett]

I gather you're satisfied the seal failure wasn't caused by the start of a bearing failure

Yes -- none of the standard checks provided indication of either bearing having an issue, and the fact that the crown gear bearing is now a sealed design helps with my confidence level.

 

but did you figure out why it was leaking? Damaged during assembly? Burr on the shaft or other debris in the seal? Or what? Seals are inherently simplistic and reliable devices - keep a sharp eye on the replacement in case whatver caused the first problem is still present....

For sure? No -- I removed the plastic cover ring to verify the seal was the source, and saw nothing obvious. Because I was not in the shop during the seal replacement I can't confirm the absence of a burr on the axle, but nothing leads me to think the issue was anything but a damaged seal, either before or during install.

 

As far as keeping a sharp eye, having had two long trips effectively ruined by crown gear bearing failures, if anything I'll be too hyper-sensitive to the issue. Hopefully I can chill enough to not let the worry overshadow the trip.

[marcopolo]

You do realize that maintenance schedule is from 9/2006?

 

Well hell, I do now!

 

Edit: BTW, I just noticed my riders manual is silent to the FD lubricant as well as detail on what the maintenance schedule really is.

What is the recommended FD oil for 2012 RTs? TIA.

 

The fluid recommended for BMW (as in BMW Motorrad Germany) for the FD is Castrol SAF-XO, a synthetic 75W90 GL5 gear oil. While it's readily available up here in Canada at BMW bike dealers, such is not the case in the U.S. Some people down south buy it at Land Rover dealers, while many others use the FD oil that BMW USA markets under the BMW label (I believe it's sourced from Spectro). Others use any lubricant that meets the specs.

 

As for maintenance schedules, they are not in the Rider's Manual, but should be available from your dealer (just ask them to print them off for you). They're also available online through some dealers, but they are not necessarily up to date.

 

 

http://www.ge39.com/files/SAF_XO_SAF_XJ_B1174_96.pdf

[terryofperry]

I could be wrong but it appears the saf-xo has been replaced with Syntrax long life and has been for awhile. May be some still around. Of course trying to find the new formula is no easier either. From the German site.

 

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9014115&contentId=7068181

 

http://www.castrolmoto.com/en/oil_selector.php

 

Terry

[marcopolo]

I could be wrong but it appears the saf-xo has been replaced with Syntrax long life and has been for awhile. May be some still around. Of course trying to find the new formula is no easier either. From the German site.

 

http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=9014115&contentId=7068181

 

http://www.castrolmoto.com/en/oil_selector.php

 

Terry

 

That would certainly seem to be the case. Dealers around here are still using SAF-XO for FDs. Online parts fiche, e.g., Max BMW's site, still show SAF-XO for FD.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Terry

 

Unfortunately that SYNTRAX LONG LIFE 75W-90 doesn't seem to be available in the U.S. here. (at least that I have been able find)

 

I have been using Land Rover LRN 7591. Their book shows that the same as SAF-XO & only about $9.00 a quart.

 

[terryofperry]

Yeah DR, I have had no luck either.

 

Terry

[kmac]

I would be curious to find out if some of these issues are because of low oil levels from the factory and a dealer that just did not check the diff?

 

If it came say half full and never got topped off on the dealer prep and you rode it for a while it could be getting hot and eating the seal and starting the weep which is why you only saw a small amount of leaking but why it was so low on fluid.

 

Not saying I know this is the cause, but it could be one possible reason?

 

My anyone buying a new BMW had ought to check all of the fluids before riding off the lot, or at least as soon as you get home.

 

I know when I worked at Toyota and Buick/GMC dealerships the dealer prep paper often got checked off as done, but at times it was just a checkmark and not a real check.

 

I'm just sayin.

 

I am on this Cam head thread because I really liked the new RT I just rode and am thinking about possibly buying one but I am scared of the issues I have read. Trying sort through the typical handful of disgruntled owners and the legit issues that seem common.

 

Thanks for letting me crash your party..lol

[dirtrider]

I would be curious to find out if some of these issues are because of low oil levels from the factory and a dealer that just did not check the diff?

 

If it came say half full and never got topped off on the dealer prep and you rode it for a while it could be getting hot and eating the seal and starting the weep which is why you only saw a small amount of leaking but why it was so low on fluid.

 

Not saying I know this is the cause, but it could be one possible reason?

 

My anyone buying a new BMW had ought to check all of the fluids before riding off the lot, or at least as soon as you get home.

 

I know when I worked at Toyota and Buick/GMC dealerships the dealer prep paper often got checked off as done, but at times it was just a checkmark and not a real check.

 

I'm just sayin.

 

I am on this Cam head thread because I really liked the new RT I just rode and am thinking about possibly buying one but I am scared of the issues I have read. Trying sort through the typical handful of disgruntled owners and the legit issues that seem common.

 

Thanks for letting me crash your party..lol

 

Afternoon Kmac

 

BMW 1200RT is a single track vehicle so no differential.

 

I see no entry in the dealer pre-delivery check list for checking either the final drive fluid level or transmission fluid level.

 

Due to the difficulty in checking I seriously doubt any of the dealers pre delivery check the final drive fluid level on their own.

 

 

 

 

[mneblett]

I would be curious to find out if some of these issues are because of low oil levels from the factory and a dealer that just did not check the diff?

 

If it came say half full and never got topped off on the dealer prep and you rode it for a while it could be getting hot and eating the seal and starting the weep which is why you only saw a small amount of leaking but why it was so low on fluid.

 

Not saying I know this is the cause, but it could be one possible reason?

In hindsight, I saw the first traces of my outer seal issue just before I went in for the initial service. It became more apparent after the service. I therefore do not have a reason to believe my dealer's work had anything to do with the issue. I also have no reason to believe the drive was under-filled on either occasion -- indeed, if there were any error, I would suspect it would be in the direction of the FD being over-filled: BMW *lowered* the specified refill quantity in 2009 in order to create more vapor space in the drive to lessen the number of outer seal failures (this according to BMW's service documentation).

 

In any event, my guess is the issue was one of the seal being defective or damaged during initial installation. That said, all this discussion has me thinking that before I head for Sedalia, I'm going to drain the now-repaired FD and put 180 cc back in -- that is the only way I will *know* what's in there, and get the question off my mind.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon ____

 

One thing to keep in mind here is the actual oil quantity has only been lowered 20 Ml from factory original fill not 40Ml as most think.

 

Seeing as there was no "re-fill" amount listed to begin with as those were supposed to be life-time filled so the original overhaul or (dry drive) fill per the manual was 220Ml.

 

The overhaul or (dry drive) fill is now 200Ml not 180 Ml.

 

Seeing as all the gear oil never completely drains out at gear oil change time the suggested re-fill after a gear oil change is 180Ml.

 

The (initial) factory fill on them should be around 200Ml with 180Ml required at change time.