Need help with my KTM 690E

[johnlt]

Hey guys, I need some help. My 08 690E has been in the shop for 6 weeks in Tucson for an overheating indication. I say indication because the tech tells me it is NOT overheating and in fact the overheating warning light and heat bars max out at only 180 degrees. They have verified the water pump and thermostat are operating properly. They have tried two new engine temperature sensors and still no change in behavior. They have swapped out the instrument cluster with a new one from the floor and again, no change. The only thing they haven’t done is swap out the ECU which they plan to do. They are getting some suggestions from KTM North America but very little real help. I have written to both the President of KTM North America as well as their CEO and haven’t even gotten a reply. It was a nice letter just asking for them to give the dealer more technical help.

 

New input. They just called and said they put in a new ECU from a new bike on the floor (KTM told them to try that) and again no change. They said they and KTM North America have no idea what is wrong and can’t fix it. I’m going to pick it up and start testing the wire loom and all the connectors looking for a possible high-resistance connector. Does the collective wisdom of the board have any other suggestions?

 

[UberXY]

Well, if the sensor, instrument cluster, and ECU are not the problem, that kind of leaves the wiring harness, as you suggest. If the sensor wire is grounding out, or if the wire is not continuous all the way to the ECU, it could indicate a very high or very low temperature, depending on the kind of sensor used. If you can figure out the pins on the ECU, you might disconnect the sensor and run a bypass wire from the sensor to the ECU pin.

 

My impression of KTM America in Ohio is that they are running hard just to stay in place. I am not surprised that you have not heard from them. Nice bikes, though.

[johnlt]

Thanks Uber, I'll try that when I get it back. Fortunately I have a wiring diagram which should make the process a little easier.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon John

 

 

Some motorcycle dealers are really inept when it comes to electrical issues. (sounds like you found one)

 

Repairing that temperature gauge isn't rocket science by any means.

 

I'm not familiar with that particular bike's temperature gauge set-up but first thing that comes to mind is it might have 2 temperature sensors with one for the fueling computer & one for the temperature gauge itself. If it has 2 sensors have them make sure they are working on the correct sensor!

 

Otherwise maybe remove the sensor & place it in a pan of warm water (about 160-180°) then quickly measure the resistance of the sensor. Now buy a cheap 1/4 watt resistors in that measurement range & put that in the wire connector to the temp sensor (leave sensor disconnected). That will give you a SOLID & FIXED base resistance to work from. Now ride the bike. If the dash gauge still shows overheat that tells you your problem is probably in the bike wiring or computer (if it even controls the temp gauge). If the temp gauge stays pretty constant then you know your problem is actually engine overheating or a bad sensor & not bike wiring.

 

If you find the engine is actually running hot then maybe suspect the plastic impeller on the water pump is slipping on the shaft when it gets hot (somewhat common on other motorcycles).

 

Another thing to check is that is doesn't have pure antifreeze in it. Pure anti freeze doesn't cool very efficiently.

 

[johnlt]

Thanks DR, I'll run those tests. And yes, it does have two temp sensors, one for coolant and one for intake air.

[dirtrider]

Morning John

 

I'm more referring to 2 COOLANT temp sensors (like Ducati)-- one for the temp gauge & one for the fueling computer.

 

Does your bike seem to run OK? If it runs a bit lethargic maybe the fuel pump is not putting out enough fuel pressure causing a lean run condition (lean = running hot). Seems some fuel injected KTM's have fuel pump issues.

 

[johnlt]

According to the wiring diagram, the only two temp sensors are for the coolant and intake air. I see no other on the diagram. The coolant wire goes to the ECU and the ECU controls the instrument cluster with the temp display. It does have a thermo-switch on the radiator that controls the fan and I have replace that myself and seems to work fine. The bike runs great. No indication of any problems other than the temp display. It shows overheating before it gets to the temp that turns the fan on. Their KTM computer test-set shows coolant temp from the engine temp sensor at 180 degrees when the display show overheating.

[Guest Kakugo]

Insist with the dealer to have KTM send around one of their field reps. The 690 is a very sophisticated piece of machinery (over 20 sensors for the engine alone!) and requires someone who knows the electronics inside out.

Sadly as DR said most dealers either lack the experience or the training to work on these machines and the customer pays the final price.

There was a spate of 690's stalling a couple of years ago and fixing them proved to be a huge challenge. In the end the problem was traced to firmware issues but only after field reps resorted to the old fashioned trial and error approach.

 

I know this won't sound like good news but a friend of mine had a similar experience with the new Honda VFR1200F. First bike stalling, dealer instructed by Honda to change every single sensor, fit a new ECU, load a brand new map etc and still stalling.

Honda retired the bike and gave him another VFR1200F.

After five thousand miles stalling again plus poor throttle response. Again dealer swapped everything as ordered by Honda, reset the ECU etc and no change.

Honda bought back this bike too, only this time it was cash back.

Bought a second hand Fireblade and end of problems...

[John Harvey]

John

 

Try posting something on the dark side in the thread below.

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722987&page=51

 

 

[johnlt]

John

 

Try posting something on the dark side in the thread below.

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=722987&page=51

 

 

I did and received almost no response after several weeks.

[johnlt]

Insist with the dealer to have KTM send around one of their field reps. The 690 is a very sophisticated piece of machinery (over 20 sensors for the engine alone!) and requires someone who knows the electronics inside out.

 

I had asked the GM at the dealership to try to get one of KTM's service "experts" to come out and take a look but he told me that KTM North America had 3 experts to do exactly that but they let them go because it was too costly!!!

[johnlt]

Well finally I am getting a little action. KTM North America is flying in one of their technical experts to Tucson on Monday next week to work on my bike when the dealer opens on Tuesday morning. I'm guessing that they will have it fixed by that afteroon or at least know exactly what the problem is. I think this dealer's mechanics are lacking a little on electrical problem solving. I'll post the results when I hear.

[CoarsegoldKid]

The next piece of great news I want to hear is they fixed it.

[markgoodrich]

I can fix it: black tape.

[johnlt]

Well, they finally found the problem. It was one of the first things I told them to check and that is the ground. I've read on the 690 thread on ADV that it had been a problem because they connect it aftere the frame has been painted so the only electrical contact is the threads. He had checked for "tightness" but not electrical conductivity. That was it. He removed the ground and sanded/ground the paint away then reconnected the master ground wire and wa-la, all is better. Fortunately they arn't going to charge me for all the extra time so I'm a happy camper now.

[Whip]

Well, they finally found the problem. It was one of the first things I told them to check and that is the ground. I've read on the 690 thread on ADV that it had been a problem because they connect it aftere the frame has been painted so the only electrical contact is the threads. He had checked for "tightness" but not electrical conductivity. That was it. He removed the ground and sanded/ground the paint away then reconnected the master ground wire and wa-la, all is better. Fortunately they arn't going to charge me for all the extra time so I'm a happy camper now.

 

 

Does that mean the price has gone up?

 

 

[eddd]

So now the paint is damaged.

 

I'll give you $2,000 for it.

[sardineone]

My comment a bit late, but worth noting on any 12V system when a problem is hard to figure. Grounds are prime suspects when something is intermittant or doesn't make sense.

[CoarsegoldKid]

Well, they finally found the problem. It was ...the ground.

Unbelievable. Instead of a good ground they had a poor insulator. KTM is in good company as no manufacture is immune to bonehead design. That small manufacturing assembly and engineering oversight cost them a bundle. I can see the service bulletin being written as we shake our collective heads.

[johnlt]

I picked it up today. They only charged me for 2 hours which is reasonable. The tech told me he spent 10 hours looking for the problem. I found out that the tech had to eat the difference. The dealer wouldn't cover it on his overhead. I don't agree with that at all. I even found out that if a tech "drops" a bike, he eats the repair cost. Tough business. Based on that, I gave the tech a $100 bill tip for his efforts.

[Whip]

I picked it up today. They only charged me for 2 hours which is reasonable. The tech told me he spent 10 hours looking for the problem. I found out that the tech had to eat the difference. The dealer wouldn't cover it on his overhead. I don't agree with that at all. I even found out that if a tech "drops" a bike, he eats the repair cost. Tough business. Based on that, I gave the tech a $100 bill tip for his efforts.

 

 

I knew there was a reason why I liked ya.