Diesel Cars

[Gary in Aus]

The discussion in another forum on this site regarding diesel motorcycles touched on diesel cars and I was surprised at the limited experience of some responders to the modern diesel car.

 

A substantial part of this , is I am sure, is due to the inability to access these vehicles in the US.

 

I am not sure of the accuracy of the following link but seemed a reasonable starting point.

 

http://www.practicalenvironmentalist.com/automobiles/2011-diesel-cars-usa.htm/comment-page-2#comment-5141

 

I am not that much of a "car" person but have recently been enjoying Audi products and am looking to purchase an additional Audi vehicle soon ,an Audi Q7 4.2litre TDI. ( the 3 litre Q7 is one of 2 Audi diesels available in the US according to this guide , not bad but I like the extra features of the 4.2 that come as standard such as air suspension etc and I can get it in a 5 seater which comes with the full size spare where the 7 seater has a space saver} .

 

I had a test drive only of a 6.0 litre Q7 {far more than I would spend on a car ,but local dealer thought I would enjoy the experience} i can be corrected on the numbers but these things have about 380 to 400 kws {around 500 hp , I am sure a techo will leap to provide accurate conversion} but the the thing that gets inside your head is the 1000 nm of torque.At any speed ,you floor it and it becomes like a scene from Star trek when they jump to warp speed. {someone mentioned a 418hp Mustang as powerful, try one of these}. The acceleration feels the same whether you are doing 50 , 100 ,150 or 200 kmph when you plant your foot.

 

Not sure how many are sold but in Australia the Chrysler 300C in sedan and wagon are available with diesel motors ,are they available in the US ?

 

I haven't done that much research but fairly certain only a handful of manufacturesr don't have diesel models in Australia.

 

In Audi models not sure about the A1 but all the others except the R8 are available with diesel and in some models the diesels are the major choice. Audi has won Le Mans 24 hr with diesel.

 

I have had diesel Nissan Patrols and Holden Rodeos for over 30 years and 30 years ago you usually had to fill up at one of the truck bowsers at the service station , that started to change about 15 years ago and now with multi fuel bowsers you will find Premium, Unleaded and Diesel at the same bowser and now nearly all have the smaller outlet. there are still some where you need to use the truck bowsers and the large nozzle is sometimes a pain to fit the filler neck.

 

The price difference between petrol and diesel sometimes varies but they can be at times either higher or lower.

 

Only using the internet and looking at a couple of sites there seems to be in the US a premium for most diesels. That can occur on some models here but most are very close in price. I am sure this is due to "marketing models" by manufacturers and what they consider you will pay or not pay.

 

This link also references 2 BMW models with diesel a 3 series model and a X5 series model .3 series range from base models on par with a hyundai to the M3 .The diesel model they are offering in the US is not one of the better ones , the 530 D is good but the 730d is superb.

 

People will buy what they know but I would suggest letting go of some of the thoughts on diesel and experience being dragged kicking and screaming into the 1990s of diesel cars, once that step has been achieved try what they are like in 2011, you will be pleasantly suprised. Like petrol powered vehicles you need to be aware of the model you are comparing {had 6 cylinder Ford Mustang as a hire car once out of Seattle around Yakima , not pleased or impressed ,pathetic car} so I can't judge all Mustangs by this experience.

 

I wonder why they have not been embraced in the US as much as they have in other countries ?

 

 

[CarrotNC]

I'm one of the customers who kick and scream about NOT having diesel cars available in the USA. Have heard a lot of different theories as to why, but the two which seem to have the most support are environmental regulations (tailpipe emissions) and lack of a consumer base.

 

Both of which are blown apart by Volkswagon who has a host of diesel cars for sale, and people buy them!

 

I've rented a host of diesel cars when in Europe, always trying for something different each trip. Favorites so far are the Skoda Octavia and the BMW 330d. On a ski trip one time had the Renault Kangoo and was a blast to drive in the snow, but VERY distinct powerbands when climbing mountains -- not happy with interior fit or finish either.

 

If the Skoda were available in the US today, I'd have one in the garage.

[Paul Mihalka]

A few years back we had a 1 month driving vacation in Europe. By luck for rental car we were given a Opel Vectra diesel, a good sized car. I could not have gotten a better car even if I picked it myself. Smooth, powerful, economical. I checked and it used fuel as my R1100RT in mpg and as my Isuzu Trooper in $$$.

[Kitsap]

I rented a Citroen C5 diesel for 3 months last year while on business in France, long enough to commute and play on the back roads; I would buy it were it available here in the states.

[Lineareagle]

The problem is that the premium price you pay for a diesel, plus the more expensive services (I never get out of an oil change at less than $100.00) and in the states at least the higher cost of the fuel. Here in Canada it was always significantly cheaper - no more.

 

Means you really have to crank on the miles to make it pay.

Estimates here are about 50 - 60,000km per year to break even with the gas powered VW doing 20-30,000 km/ year.

 

My VW tdi costs exactly the same as my R1200GSA to drive. But I do my own maintenance on the bike so that is a huge savings.

 

It is very nice to drive for 1000km and not have to stop for fuel but my last fill up was a whopping $60.00 at a $1.28/liter.

 

I am still thinking of a new diesel but that is because with the higher torque at the low end it will climb hills like nothing, pull a small trailer and the bike, and I just like the technology.

[OoPEZoO]

I tell my Jeep dealer everytime I step foot in the door that I will buy a brand new Wrangler from him as soon as Chrysler gets off their ass and makes a diesel available here in the states.

 

They already build them here and sell them all over the world, but you can't get one in the US. I'm hoping their recent dealings with Fiat will change that in the future.

[Mike O]

Ive driven several diesels in Europe (most recently a MB A-class) and I believe Europe's infrastructure is better set up for a diesel market. For me here in the U.S., finding convenient locations to fill up with diesel is a show stopper. Today I don't think about where a gas station is (any more than Europeans think about finding a diesel station), I just accept that there will be one available selling gasoline within the 2-3 miles in any major metropolitan area (and in the mountains, forget about diesel being readily available).

 

How wonderful these cars drive, the torque, fuel economy, etc. is worthless to me if I can't find readily accessible fuel. And by readily accessible I don't mean driving 10 miles to a major interstate junction.

 

I'd like to see that change, and then I might entertain a diesel, but until then....

 

Mike O

[Husker Red]

I wanted a diesel when I bought my last car and I almost bought a VW TDI sportwagon. The VW was great, but we needed something to haul our kids and stuff plus we pull a boat quite a bit. I ended up getting a used 2007 Mercedes ML 320 CDI almost 2 years ago. I've been very happy with it. I've been getting 26-27 mpg on my highway commute which is great for a mid-sized SUV. It can pull the boat pretty well and plenty of room for the kids and luggage from trips.

 

Downsides have been Merecedes service is completely overpriced and for some items you must use the dealer. Oil changes services are 10 quarts of special synthetic and run over $250 at the dealership. However, that's not a diesel complaint. One diesel complaint: why the hell is diesel more expensive than gas when it's easier to produce? I keep hoping the price will drop below gas again but it doesn't seem to be happening.

 

Upside has been great fuel mileage, great torque, and the resale looks much better on the diesel versions than the gas burners.

 

I haven't had any trouble finding diesel at gas stations. It can go 600 miles between fill-ups so I have time to look. Locally I always go to the same one and when we're travelling I occasionally have to stop at one or two before finding diesel but not really a hassle.

[moshe_levy]

There are a host of reasons why manufacturers are leery of bringing diesels here, and why Americans are leery of buying them. Some reasons (manufacturer's in general) are right. Some (consumers mostly) are not.

 

Manufacturers are leery of the incredibly complex regulations which govern diesel fuel. Instead of thinking of the US as a country, imagine 50 different fiefdoms, each with its own requirements. That goes not just for diesel fuel regulations, but for tailpipe emissions as well. If it sounds like an expensive pain in the ass to deal with, well, you get the picture.

 

Customers in this country - incorrectly - still think of diesels as your dad's 1980 Seville, belching smoke and spewing foul smells. They have not driven modern diesels and because of this image they have in their minds, they don't want to.

 

Diesels are one step further towards consuming less fuel. To me that is a good thing. We as American regulators can do ourselves a favor and make it easier for good product to be sold here, and we as American customers can stop thinking the world hasn't changed since Cadillac singlehanded ruined the image if diesels in this country 30+ years ago.

 

-MKL

[Paul Mihalka]

Part of reason that diesel is more expensive that gas in the USA is higher taxes. Federal tax for gas 18.4 cents a gallon, 24.4 for diesel. Obviously it does not explain the whole difference. In many European countries diesel is taxed much lower than gas.

[Mike]

There are some good points made above. I'd note a few factors: First, there's still a stigma surrounding diesels here, many associate them with images of black smoke and noxious fumes. Second, it's a chicken/egg thing, but diesel is not sold at many gas (petrol) stations; it's not impossible to find, just more difficult. Third--and this may be a little more tenuous, given the passage of time--GM sold some disastrous diesels in the 1970s ( Wikipedia article). While perhaps earlier than the memories of many now in the market, GM's debacle seriously colored the opinions of a whole generation, insofar as diesel-powered cars are concerned. Those societal biases take a long time to fade away.

 

Most who have had experiences with modern diesels know better, but there's little enthusiasm for diesels among the general public. Interestingly, many of our domestic manufacturers sell diesel-powered models in other markets that are not available here.

[ragtoplvr]

One diesel complaint: why the hell is diesel more expensive than gas when it's easier to produce? I keep hoping the price will drop below gas again but it doesn't seem to be happening.

 

 

The process of refining diesel to very low sulfur levels is expensive. Not as much refinery capacity. We use a lot of diesel in OTR trucks, where Europe uses trains to greater effect. Since you can only make so much diesel out of a barrel of oil, and the higher tax, it ends up more expensive now. Farm diesel, (red) is much less expensive.

 

Rod

[moshe_levy]

An interesting tidbit as we lament the lack of available diesels here in the USA. The world's largest producer (by volume) of diesel engines is...... Our very own Ford Motor Company!

 

-MKL

[Linz]

I have a VW Golf 2.0 TDi and love the car. Diesel here is slightly more expensive than gas but I get almost twice the mileage from a tank full. I'm still better off financially even with the higher fuel price.

 

The engine runs the same torque figures as a local V6 GMH vehicle so I can tow my bike trailer without really being aware that it's there. The engine is very lazy too, around 1700rpm at about 70mph so I'm expecting a long life.

 

I bought my VW after a trip to the UK where I experienced what driving a modern diesel can be like. Came home and bought one. Would I go back to gas powered? Nope.

 

Linz

[markgoodrich]

I was discussing this very issue today with a friend who drives a Jetta TDI wagon. The current price premium he pays for a diesel equates (he claims to get around 40mpg) to the cost of operating a gasoline car which averages 32 mpg. My Camry Hybrid averages: 32mpg in town, more on the highway. Lots of cars these days with gasoline engines getting 32mpg.

 

I'm hot for an Audi A3 or even the Jetta wagon, but there's no justification right now. If you have a crossover or small SUV, the Jetta diesel probably will make more sense.

[RichEdwards]

I love my VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI. I've had it for over a year now and have had zero problems. I got a $1300 federal rebate for this car because it is so fuel efficient and the EPA loves the lack of emmisions poison coming out of the VW's tailpipe. Most people can't tell it's a diesel. It's VERY quiet. It has lots of power and great acceleration. It holds 5 people comfortably and has a huge station wagon rear area. I've carried 4 dogs in the back of my Sportwagen. I can't think of another fuel-efficient vehicle (38-44 mpg) that has so much carrying space. I've owned a bunch of cars in my 66 years and this is one of my favorites.

 

[moshe_levy]

The Sportwagen TDI is on my short list of *possible* replacements for my 2008 Prius (now with 70k trouble-free 44mpg average miles). New baby arrives in July, meaning my 2 year old in a car seat and my 9 year old need to fit with a new baby seat in the back seat. The old-gen Prius is marginal in this regard. Maybe the new one is better but I haven't checked.

 

I always lean towards hybrids over diesels because my commute often involves a highway with an HOV lane, which I can use without any extra passengers in my hybrid (not in a diesel, though). That saves me 20 minutes round trip as everyone else is stuck in the parking lot of rush hour. The emmissions are also only a fraction of a diesel's, which matters to me. But I don't see any real choices for me except the aforementioned Prius V.

 

I'm actually headed down to VW in April to put two car seats and my 9 year old into the back of a Sportwagen to see if they all fit comfortably. It's also a chance to still get the "old" Jetta since the Sportwagen is still on the old Jetta platform, unlike the new-gen sedan. The new Jetta sedan, which I drove, is "decontented," looks bland, and feels cheap. Very mediocre overall. VW is going in the wrong direction chasing volume and clearly sacrificing character and quality to do so. Bad move.

 

-MKL

[James Clark]

Farm diesel, (red) is much less expensive.

 

 

Must be due to the glut of red dye on the market.

[HairyCannonball]

For over 25 years I have owned and operated a variety diesel cars, mostly W123 chassis MB, but also a Ford Escort diesel, a Trooper II turbodiesel, (yes, I went through a silly thought I wanted a big clumsy station wagon phase for about a year) a big dumb F250 Ford diesel pickup, and now an ALH engined Jetta TDI. I still also have an old 300D-T MB that my wife drives. I find some of the previous posters comments interesting, particularly the perceived difficulty finding diesel fuel, and the higher maintenance costs.

I ask this because I have found the maintenance and service costs of my diesel vehicles to be significantly less than the gas cars I have owned, and never once have I had to search for a station that sold diesel. I find it much more offensive having to stop every 300 miles to fill up a gas car. My Jetta TDI holds about 19 gallons (if you do the vent trick when filling) and I can count on 50 mpg *most* (but certainly not all)of the time. That's an easy 900 miles with 50 mile reserve. I did over 1000 miles on a tank once, but that was the exception, not the rule. While most of you with gas vehicles are looking for a gas station though, I am watching my fuel gauge just nudge off the F mark. There are numerous service stations within 5 miles of my house that sell diesel fuel. I have been all over the US and never once had to search for it.

 

What service costs are folks finding more expensive? I am curious because I find routine maintenance comparable and major service much much less ( never had a major mechanical failure of one of my diesel vehicles and one had close to 400,000 miles on it when sold).

[moshe_levy]

Forgot to ask - all you guys with Sportwagens - can you recommend a Sportwagen forum similar to this one but for that car?

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

MLK,

 

check out this forum for diesel VWs http://forums.tdiclub.com

 

 

This post sounds like "diesel lovers unite!"

 

First let me say this: I do not hate diesels!

My first vocational training was as a diesel mechanic (Army), later worked for greyhound bus lines (Detroit diesels), that was many moons ago.

 

I live in a hilly area so I would welcome a diesel car. I drove my friends (~2005)VW golf for a few weeks, it was great. I even went to the dealer a priced a Jetta and a a Wagon.

 

But i will go against the tide here.

I will use a quote from a other car-website"

"The VW gives you a little of that Peterbilt clatter and that indomitable turbo torque way down at grunting speed. You get to slog around in the ever-widening oil slick at the U-serve, too, same as real truckers, and you'll notice that clingy petro smell every time you get behind the wheel. Diesels have character. A few of us really get off on them."

 

Here is the turn off for me or to others not needing to pull things like boat or trailer. (in the USA).

Initial cost of a diesel option engine +$4K to 5K more.

costly dealer maintenance, including oil changes.

after warranty expires, it is hard to find a local mechanic that knows diesels.(price a timing belt/waterpump change at 90K miles on the Jettas).

Low sulfur Diesel fuel cost more than regular gas.

 

diesel engines last longer , but you have to drive it a long time to recoup that cost of initial purchase + higher fuel cost.

 

We don't have a large selection of diesels, other than VW and other expensive German models Audi- BMW Merc.

Why? most people don't care for a diesel.

I don't think we are heading toward diesel in this country (USA)

I think it is gas /electric hybrids, plug in hybrids that charge overnight or full electric---- to get off the "foreign oil"

 

Should diesel fuel become less expensive than gasoline, The diesel thing may come alive, but at the same time electric cars will want to compete with it. Environmentalists will push it towards....you know the answer.

 

PS: did you ever get stuck next to a dodge /ford/chevy/diesel truck at a red light. (we got plenty here in Texas) Just so your car's cabin get filled it's stink that makes you vomit. It leaves a bad taste in people's mouth and mind ( and lungs).

 

PS (2): diesels are exempt from annual emission testing here in Texas so you can't even complain to the state if a modified diesel fills the roadways with black cloud for the next 1/4 mile.

 

[HairyCannonball]

MLK,

 

 

Here is the turn off for me or to others not needing to pull things like boat or trailer. (in the USA).

Initial cost of a diesel option engine +$4K to 5K more.

costly dealer maintenance, including oil changes.

after warranty expires, it is hard to find a local mechanic that knows diesels.(price a timing belt/waterpump change at 90K miles on the Jettas).

Low sulfur Diesel fuel cost more than regular gas.

 

diesel engines last longer , but you have to drive it a long time to recoup that cost of initial purchase + higher fuel cost.

 

 

PS: did you ever get stuck next to a dodge /ford/chevy/diesel truck at a red light. (we got plenty here in Texas) Just so your car's cabin get filled it's stink that makes you vomit. It leaves a bad taste in people's mouth and mind ( and lungs).

 

PS (2): diesels are exempt from annual emission testing here in Texas so you can't even complain to the state if a modified diesel fills the roadways with black cloud for the next 1/4 mile.

 

Some points. The initial cost of the diesel option is not 4 or 5 thousand. according to http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/cars-money/diesel-engines-how-quickly-do-they-pay-off/1801/:

 

Volkswagen Jetta SportWagen Buyers choose the diesel in 40% of cases for the Jetta overall, but more than 80% with the SportWagen wagon model. The 2011 Jetta sedan has had a complete redesign, but the wagon model will remain more like last year’s — a plus for some VW loyalists. The diesel wagon, rated at 30 mpg city, 42 highway, lists for $24,730 vs. $23,455 for the similarly equipped SE gasoline model, which can use regular gas. The payback period on the $1,275 difference would be 6.3 years in combined driving. But if most of your driving is highway cruising, the diesel advantage would be greater.

 

 

Audi A3 The A3 hatchback is praised by reviewers for its fun performance, top safety rating and sporty styling. Buyers select the diesel 55% of the time. The diesel version — rated at 30 mpg in city driving, 42 mpg highway — was named green car of the year for 2010 by Green Car Journal. (The 2011 nominees, just announced, run more to electrics and hybrids). The base model 2011 A3 TDI diesel lists for $29,950 or $2,680 more than the gasoline option. Using the diesel combined EPA rating of 34 mpg and the gasoline number of 24 mpg, you would save $568 a year with the diesel if you drove 15,000 miles a year compared with premium gasoline at current prices. Thus you would pay back the extra initial cost in 4.7 years.

 

 

 

Costly dealer maintenance can be avoided by doing it yourself. An oil change on my Jetta costs me 5 quarts of synthetic oil, a filter, and 10 minutes of my time every 10,000 miles. A timing belt costs me $360.00 for a premium parts kit that includes an upgraded water pump with a bronze impeller, a 100K mile belt, all the idler rollers and tensioning roller, and all the tty bolts that have to be replaced. It takes an afternoon to install, and requires moderate mechanical aptitude and the ability and willingness to follow the correct procedure. It's not rocket science.

 

Low sulphur diesel does cost more than regular gasoline. Where I live it costs within pennies of premium gasoline. however the increased fuel economy more than offsets the increased cost of fuel:

My Jetta now has 148,651 miles on it. It cost new $1200 more than the gasoline base model, but the $1200 also bought standard A/C and cruise control which at the time were options on the base model. Lets say the average fuel economy I got with this car was 46 (I usually get better) but most folks on the forums claim an average of 46. That means my car has burned 3231.5 gallons of fuel. Most folks with the base gas version get 28 mpg average from what I read and who I talk to. That is 5308 gallons. At current fuel prices in my town diesel is 3.74 and regular gas is 3.29. $12085 total for diesel, vs $17463 for the gasoline a savings of $5378 at current prices. That is more than enough to offset the higher initial price, and the dealer price of a timing belt replacement (usually around $850.00).

 

I find the smoke from a modified/poorly maintained diesel pickup just as offensive as you do, but that's the fault of the owner, not the diesel engine. Modern, unmodified diesels have a far less offensive to me odor than a gas car especially one with a failing cat. There is no excuse for clouds of black smoke and stench. Besides, we are talking about sensible diesel cars here, not some foolish 6000 lb clumsy 4wd outfit that will never tow or haul anything. No offense intended to those who use a truck to haul tools and earn a living.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

I think it is gas /electric hybrids, plug in hybrids that charge overnight or full electric---- to get off the "foreign oil"

 

Thanks for the link. I take it you read the "hybrid hatred" thread I started, for you took the words out of my mouth. I personally don't a damn about a "payoff period" (within reason, of course). If it eats less gas, and costs more, I'm going to pay it, and I wouldn't think twice about it. Most hybrid owners, when polled, say the same. We're not sitting there trying to figure out how many years or months it's going to take to make up some theoretical cost difference (always based foolishly on a static gas price, no doubt) - we're getting off foreign oil NOW. Costs a little more? So what. I'd rather give my money to Toyota for developing a hybrid or VW for developing a frugal diesel than to King Abdullah and his ilk for doing.... What, exactly? There's much more than personal economics at stake.

 

I've gone over this at length in the other thread, so I won't delve into it here, plus now there's more of a strict ban on politics, so I'm just saying in short (if we stick to economics) that there's micro, AND macro, to consider.

 

-MKL

[philbytx]

I will preface this by stating that I REALLY like small diesels and have driven quite a few in the U.K. and Europe.

 

So, Deb and I just went through the whole new car exercise. Narrowing it down to a JSW and the new Kia Optima. Using a spreadsheet, I did the hwy mileage/depreciation math using a 35 cent spread between regular and diesel. In the end, there was only a small annual savings buying a JSW plus the Kia had way more content, creature comforts and also a great warranty.

 

Being as we keep our vehicles for a long time, there were a couple of things about the JSW that put Deb off - assembled in Mexico, de-contented, few creature comforts - and that put me off - the DSG transmission requires a 40k service costing about $400 (special tools as well!) and VW still use a timing belt on that motor. Kevlar and all that but a belt nonetheless, requiring R&R at 120k.

 

Subject to a long and gruelling test drive after we get back from the Old Country (the home of $9.00 a gallon gas!!!), we prolly going with the Kia Optima EX.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SuperG]

HairyCannonball,

 

I am not sure where the blogger you mention can get a diesel jetta for only $1275 more. Different states must have different pricing, but the local VW dealer

shows most jettas at $21.5k to $22.5k(sunroof) and the TDI for $25.5k.

Paypback period calculation just estimates, as gas vs. diesel fuel swing big time from year to year. sometimes almost a wash but sometimes as high as $1 more for diesel where I live.

 

Do it your self maintenance on diesel is also rare, very low percentage will attempt a timing belt change on a diesel jetta. Please, most people I know that has diesel jeta, bmw or audi diesels don't even move their own grass.

 

I know that modified diesel truck does not compare to clean car diesels, but the image and the smoke plume they create makes the other 98% gas car driver scream "ban diesel car sales"- California anyone?

 

I also dislike that most diesel owners let the vehicle idle for a long period of time ( example spouse runs in to the store to get something) - because it uses little fuel idling- but still stinks up the place.

 

My civic hybrid on the other hand, auto-shuts off the engine at the red lights -makes me happy every time- I pollute less, while the engine is off I still have A/C compressor running on electric power.

The large DC electric motor restarts the engine seamlessly when you remove your foot from the brakes. It is an awesome technology. It is a 1.3 liter engine + a powerfull DC electric motor inline.

 

 

[markgoodrich]

Yahoo (who knew they'd have something useful) shows "cost to own" various cars over 5 years.

 

A3 TDI: http://autos.yahoo.com/audi/a3/2011/2-0-tdi-premium-clean-diesel-s-tronic/cost.html

 

A3 PZEV S: http://autos.yahoo.com/audi/a3/2011/2-0t-pzev-premium-s-tronic/cost.html

 

etc. I ran across the site the other day when I suddenly decided I NEED an A3 TDI or a JSW TDI...the total cost differential between those, for my zip code, is about 5 grand. I still have the Camry Hybrid.

[HairyCannonball]

There will be cake,

 

I'm not sure where he got his numbers, I do know when my Jetta was new msrp was $1200.00 more for the TDI. That was 10 years ago. I do know the current base gas Jetta is pretty stripped down compared to the diesel, not just options but things like drum brakes vs disc, torsion bar rear susp vs independant. Perhaps if we compare exactly farkled cars the price is closer, I dunno for sure.

 

I agree that not many do their own maintenance on a diesel, but I don't know why the masses would be more apt to perform their own maintenance on a gasoline powered car vs a diesel. Makes no sense at all. An oil change is an oil change, an air filter change is an air filter change etc. Yeah, bad mechanics have successfully scared most from doing a TB change on a TDI. Too bad, not that hard really. People are scared of what they don't understand I suppose. I guess since it a mystery how to even operate a car for the masses it must be a real stretch on how to maintain it

I seriously dislike anyone letting a vehicle idle too, regardless of whether or not it is a diesel. Wasteful, stupid and annoying.

 

Honest question concerning the Civic hybrid, a car I like and have considered buying. Why does the engine start as soon as you release the brake? I found this mildly annoying in stop and go traffic compared to the Prius which could navigate stop and go traffic pure electric starting its engine only when needed not simply because the brake was released. Other than this I liked the Civic better. Please understand I'm not picking on your Civic, I just wonder if you know the reasoning behind it.

[moshe_levy]

Hairy-

 

The Honda is a "mild hybird" as opposed to the full bore hybrid that the Prius is. The series / parallel arrangement of the Prius in much more complicated, and much more expensive. It is also much more effective, as proven by its MPG numbers, which dwarf those of the Civic (even though the Civic is much smaller, and much lighter as well). Apples and oranges in this case. The Civic is excellent and brings hybrid closer to a price point that more people can live with.

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

Don't ask me a technical question , I tent to get carried away and write a novel.

 

The short answer is - because the electric motor is directly connected to the crankshaft and can not be disengaged. So when the electric motor spins the gas engine spins. On the civic the engine always turns and the DC motor assist... or it is used as a generator to recharge the 158volt and 12volt batteries upon braking or decelerating.

 

 

This is a side track from diesels, but very interesting technology. I will try to give a bit of back ground before I answer your question.

 

Civic's hybrid drive is different compare to the Prius.

 

The the current civic has a 1.3 liter 4 cylinder engine and a CVT transmission. Between the engine and the trans they showed a pancake like ~6-7 inch wide brushless DC motor, its diameter is same as the transmission housing so it is hard to tell them apart.

The engine and Dc motor and trans is o the same shaft, meaning when the engine's crankshaft turn so does the DC motor.

 

This DC motor serve 3 purposes.

1) assis the gas engie ( added power ) on accel.

2) It is the vehicle's starter motor.

3) the same Dc motor reversed and it is the vehicles alternator ( more like a DC generator).

The civic does not have a separate alternator.

 

It does how ever has an emergency - regular conventional starter motor and a 12Volt battery to start the car should the big (158Volt ) battery malfunction, die or got depleted.

If the car needs a jump start this system would start the vehicle.

 

Everything runs on 12Volt except the Dc motor.

Under normal conditions. it is the DC motor that starts the car, every time. starting the engine is seemless and effortless. The Powerfull DC motor can accelerate the car on its own, so turning over a 1.3 liter gas engine is a minor task.

 

When you come to a stop, engine shuts off , everything work inside the car including A/C. the A/C compressor is dual powered, from engine's crankshaft via belt, or when the engine is off the electric motor turns the A/C compressor, it leaches power from the 158 Volt battery.

 

When the light turn green and you take your foot off the brakes, the Dc motor seamlessly spins up the gas engine engine and the car starts to roll.

You can not run on DC motor alone because the DC motor is directly connected to the crankshaft.

 

However, the Civic CAN run on Dc electric power only. It does not do it too often, certain criteria must be met and usually occurs on flat roads - cruising speed with steady throttle.

The computer shuts off the gas cylinders and the DC motor drives the wheels. this can be observed when the Mile/gallon indicator shoots up to max (100) and motor assist shows on the hybrid display. The crank still turn but no gasoline is being used.

The engine has a variable valve lift and the PCM can deactivate cylinders.

 

When you run down the 158V battery, and there is no DC motor assist, the little 1.3 L engine alone is weak and noticeably struggling. When the Dc motor assist upon take off, it is a noticeable boost and the car drives and feels like any other normal car. THE CVT (constant variable trans) is different than other automatic cars and takes some time to get used to it.

If you slam on the gas the engine will rev to the moon and the car start to accelerate but you never see engine RPM drop until you let off the gas but the car will accelerate at almost linear rate.

 

[moshe_levy]

Excellent description! I read an article once on the Honda "mild" system vs. Toyota's. I'll see if I can dig it up. And the Volt is even more complicated than the Prius! Dad's new Volt comes in 8 weeks. I'll let you guys know how it is when I have a chance to tear into it.

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

Let me add a small bit of info to my previous post about Honda tech/hybrid.

When the main battery is depleted to a low level, such as lots of stop /restart and no regenerative braking, A/C running. When you come to a stop light, foot on the brake car is in drive, instead of the engine turning off, the PCM semi neutralizes the trans from the engine, throws the DC motor to generative mode, raises engine rpm to about 1200-1400 it shuts off a few cylinders, and charges the main battery. I can tell it is not running on 4 cylinders because the car shakes a bit more. I am guessing it removes fuel from two cylinders and partially hangs the intake valves open. The engine likely runs leaner and only on two cylinder 1.3 liter cut in half (1300cc/2 = 650cc) to bring up battery voltage on the big 158volt battery.

As soon as you take your foot off the brakes it is all back to normal, you feel a slight forward motion of the car as the trans reengages and all 4 cylinders fire return to idle.

There are some smart folks in Japan I tell ya..

[moshe_levy]

MT had a Honda vs. Prius comparo when the Honda first came out. They hailed the Honda the winner after it was trumped by the Prius in virtually every category save price. MT's position was that the Honda's lower price would bring hybrid tech to the masses. Since the comparo the Prius has continually sold in higher numbers than the Honda and MT has had to backtrack on that conclusion.

 

Still, for people who take the time to look into how much tech goes into these cars, mild or full hybrid, it is mind boggling. There truly are some smart folks in Japan, for sure... Let's hope the new American answer is on par or better.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

Forgot - Youtube carries the test now - see

 

-MKL

[philbytx]

I'm a Luddite when it comes to cars...the simpler the better and at the moment, IMHO, the "higher the tech" the more crap can (and will) go wrong. That is unless they design the cars in a truly modular fashion. This would make it more like "plug and play" when something goes TU. By going modular (and I mean REASONABLY PRICED modular), it would also save on tech training and dealer "bendovers"!

 

However, as dealers make most of their profits on the service end, I can't really see the auto manufacturers making that happen.

 

Now, this from someone that had a whole department of tech and programmers working for him....I LOVE technology but am loath to have it take over my life. It appears that some auto manufacturers want the car to drive for us...YUCK!

[SuperG]

...I LOVE technology but am loath to have it take over my life. It appears that some auto manufacturers want the car to drive for us...YUCK!

 

The only way to stop technology taking over your life is :

1) move out to he wilderness and live off the land, you still have to take care of the animals and plants.

2) get your self a time machine on ebay and travel back in time.

 

THe honda system is the simple one.

The prius hybrid and all other high end line lexus and such is a much more complex system.

 

Even today's diesels are complex , all computer controlled, very high pressure single rail fuel systems. I thought the VW ran on 3000 psi system but could be higher as the audi ( recently read about) runs on 26000psi, you need a good electric motor/pump to work on such high pressure.

[moshe_levy]

Phil-

 

Though it logically follows that something complex is bound to break more than something simple, the actual evidence doesn't show any of this being the case with hybrids, either mild like Honda or, amazingly, the complicated system Toyota employs. We've covered this at length on the hybrid thread, but one needs only to review this month's Consumer Reports to see, the Prius is one of the most reliable cars on the road. Many agencies including JD Power here in the States and TUV in Europe rate it THE most reliable car on the road. Prius taxis here in NYC with 200-300k on them don't lie. There's nothing to be afraid of, in this case - tech can be good!

 

-MKL

[philbytx]

Oh! I'm really NOT against tech Moshe, honest .

I'm really just a Luddite at heart and not ashamed to be proud of it

[philbytx]

See my answer to Moshe

[Gary in Aus]

There will be cake,

 

 

You have raised some "different" observations that are obviously based on location, US as opposed to the rest of the world.

 

I hate it when people cut and paste parts of posts but I will this time and I aplogize for doing so.

 

Quote

 

"I live in a hilly area so I would welcome a diesel car."

 

I live in a really flat country and it suits the diesel perfectly , tall gearing and loads of torque , diesels suit most places.

 

 

Quote

 

"But i will go against the tide here. I will use a quote from a other car-website"

"The VW gives you a little of that Peterbilt clatter and that indomitable turbo torque way down at grunting speed. You get to slog around in the ever-widening oil slick at the U-serve, too, same as real truckers, and you'll notice that clingy petro smell every time you get behind the wheel. Diesels have character. A few of us really get off on them."

 

Not sure of the tide against which you are turning but using a VW diesel as a measure of diesels is probably not the wisest of moves . The VW Golfs I have driven in Europe and Aus the Euro seemed noisier but only from memory.

The BMW730d idled and ran as quietly as any petrol BMW I have been in , I would not use the "other website" on VW as a benchmark , diesels have become more civilised dramatically in a short period of time.

"Slog around in an ever widening oil slick" probably means that you are in a third world country , your environmental people need to be checking this garage or you may need to be more selective of your choice of garage. The larger truck filler nozzle does not fit into most {if any} new diesel fuel inlets , out here there are mainly specialised truck filling stations so we don't have this problem with trucks spilling fuel where you refuel your car.

 

Also because of the range on a tankful of fuel, I refill not that often at either the "local garages" at either Bathurst , Canberra or Thirroul. At bathurst and Thirroul they have full driveway service so no need to get out of vehicle other than to have a chat.

 

 

Quote

 

"after warranty expires, it is hard to find a local mechanic that knows diesels." Most third world countries with a mechanic working from the back of a pushbike or under a tent can keep your diesel going , there must be some one in your area with enough skills to make it work. I have not needed a mechanic and happy to use dealer if required , they do all the services.

 

 

I have just filled my Audi A6 TDI with diesel at $1.47.1 per litre , E10 was $1.43.1 , regular Unleaded was $1.49 and Premium {98} was $1.51. {but these prices vary so somedays higher some days lower , these are todays and over time I would say they are very close}

 

 

Quote

 

"We don't have a large selection of diesels, other than VW and other expensive German models Audi- BMW Merc."

 

This ,I'm sure explains a substantial part of diesel acceptance , with such a lack of choice , the market doesn't get to sample the best bits and the price of the Europeans is probably inflated by tariffs . I wonder what the import duty/taxes are into the US from Europe.

 

Quote

 

"Should diesel fuel become less expensive than gasoline, The diesel thing may come alive, but at the same time electric cars will want to compete with it. Environmentalists will push it towards....you know the answer"

 

Not so sure on the answer , unless you are using renewable/ low impact sources such as solar ,wind ,tidal or geothermal then diesel is still viable. It still surprises me that the electric car lobby thinks that electricity is clean , it usually is at the power point but not always at the power station especially coal fired , it's just that the pollution is not in their backyard.

 

 

 

Quote

"PS: did you ever get stuck next to a dodge /ford/chevy/diesel truck at a red light. (we got plenty here in Texas) Just so your car's cabin get filled it's stink that makes you vomit. It leaves a bad taste in people's mouth and mind ( and lungs).

 

PS (2): diesels are exempt from annual emission testing here in Texas so you can't even complain to the state if a modified diesel fills the roadways with black cloud for the next 1/4 mile.

 

These two are definitely third world issues that an be adressed by diesel fuel quality and improved environmental controls on vehicle modifications plus you can never forget the arsehole that modifies the diesel that "fills the roadways with black clouds for the next 1/4 mile"

 

These are people issues not a fuel issue.

 

While there is a place for hybrids there is also a place for diesels.

 

Lexus 600H would be my choice of hydrid but not sure on battery costs such as mineral/transport/production/lifecycle/disposal and the impact of carrying the batteries all the time. , versus the the 460.

[Gary in Aus]

Quote

 

"Do it your self maintenance on diesel is also rare, very low percentage will attempt a timing belt change on a diesel jetta. Please, most people I know that has diesel jeta, bmw or audi diesels don't even move their own grass"

 

Why do think God made mechanics and lawn maintenance men ? They have to make a living too!

 

We have garden maintenance men for Canberra and Thirroul but I do most of the big stuff at the farm but we do have a regular lawn man keeps the house paddock tidy.

 

Once again the problems seem to be people based rather than the fuel ,behaviour such as modifying deisels and "excessive idling" .

 

Excessive idling warrants a good flogging!

 

I also confess to not washing any vehicle of any sort , I have a man who does our vehicles , he picks up and drops off.

 

[SuperG]

Gary, Gary, you are funny... (saying it in a funny way not a mean way)

 

You keep mentioning "only in a third world country".

I guess we here in the USA are it then.

 

Everything i said and you re quoted is true.

There is oil slick at the diesel side of the gas stations ( not talking about big rig side) Here the same pump station dispenses gasoline and diesel - from a different hose of course. The diesel side has a slick.

 

Of course many situations are different here then in Europe or in Australia, that is a given. Diesel cars are a great thing there but not so much here. IMHO

Because there is not too many diesel cars here , mechanics are few and between as well.

[moshe_levy]

Cake-

 

I'm not sure there is a lack of mechanics here. I have plenty of VW-TDI and a few BMW diesel driving friends. None have any problems getting serviced at their local dealers. For the most part these people are quite happy with the cars as well.

 

-MKL

[SuperG]

Sorry , should have been more clear, I was referring to independent shops, ones that does not charge dealer $$ rates

[moshe_levy]

That's true, for sure.

 

-MKL

[Gary in Aus]

Quote "You keep mentioning "only in a third world country".

I guess we here in the USA are it then."

 

 

From an impeccable and highly scientific basis

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk

 

[RichEdwards]

There is oil slick at the diesel side of the gas stations ( not talking about big rig side) Here the same pump station dispenses gasoline and diesel - from a different hose of course. The diesel side has a slick.

 

You should know that gasoline evaporates completely when spilled. Diesel does not. And Cake...most of what you have said about diesel...its exhaust fumes, etc. is not true in this century.

[DD 430]

A few musings on the diesel: the newer ones are fantastic.

 

One of the problems with respect to American public opinion was the misguided introduction of the GM diesels in the late '70's and early '80's with what amounted to a converted gasoline engine in small trucks and cars. Since then they've paired with Isuzu (note the GM 'Forward' model trucks). I think that Isuzu is one of the largest diesel builders in the world and the build tremendous engines.

 

I had a an '86 Isuzu Trooper with a diesel engine. Until it threw a connecting rod (a common problem with that particular engine) it was a phenomenal set up that gave tremendous mileage.

 

My wife and I were traveling around Nova Scotia a couple of years ago. We getting ready for tour up the west coast one day when a diesel powered Smart Car pulled in next to our RT. I talked at length to its owner who said that the car got tremendous mileage and would travel well at highway speed. I can't say for sure whether a marketing issue with Smart or gov't regulations have kept the car out of the country. (I suspect it's the latter.)

 

Yes, the taxes are very high on diesel fuel. (Too high as they are on most everything else in my opinion.) Diesel fuel also has more stored energy per gallon than does gasoline hence the better mileage and a reason for additional cost.

 

I think that at one time (my memory is getting foggy in my old age) Royal Enfield - after its relocation to India - produced a diesel version. I still have knee problems from kicking over my old BSA Goldstar. I can only imagine that I'd be in a wheel chair if it had been a diesel.

 

Finally, when I was a young fellow, I remember working with an old Case 580 backhoe one winter. We had to start fire under the oil pan in order to thin the oil enough to allow for the diesel engine to start in the frigid temperature. Ah, the good old days!