Very sad and SCARY

[GreatDaysAhead]

Love life and eat your dessert first !!

 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/nov/13/ocotillo-crash-involves-seven-motorcycles-and-two-/

[sardineone]

Reading between the lines the senario looks very much like Peter Egan's 'Rambling Roadblocks' article of 2001 only gone very wrong. Basically a long line of slow moving motorcycles holding up(4-wheeled)traffic. A shame I'll never be guilty of!

[upflying]

More links to stories and photos here.

http://affilojetpack.co.uk/saddle-tramps-motorcycle-club-lakeside-ca/

Saddletramps is a Harley club so it is reasonable to conclude they were riding at or below the speed limit. SR98 is a desert highway with a lot of open space that encourages WOT driving. It is also a highway that notoriously serves illegal alien and drug smuggling originating from the nearby Mexican border.

While the passing Honda Civic is at fault in what would legally be described as a non-contact collision, the Avenger is primarily at fault for crossing over the double yellow and hitting the bikers head-on. The bikers may also be partially at fault for failing to use turn-outs to allow faster moving traffic to pass.

I hope the Civic driver is found but I am not optimistic.

Another good reason to avoid group rides.

 

[beemerman2k]

Reading between the lines the senario looks very much like Peter Egan's 'Rambling Roadblocks' article of 2001 only gone very wrong. Basically a long line of slow moving motorcycles holding up(4-wheeled)traffic. A shame I'll never be guilty of!

 

Me too.

 

To me, the messags is to avoid slow group rides. Not much of an issue with the BMW riders I've toured with. If anything, I'm the one bringing up the rear at about 15-20 over the limit

 

Sad situation nonetheless.

[kinchy]

Horrible story.

[Lmar]

Tragic, I hope they find the car.

[AviP]

I hate group rides because they usually have problems. Either someone is too fast or too slow. In either case, it can lead to more than you bargain for. My magic number is 2 motorcycles, maybe 3.

[kmac]

Tragic for the bikers, the people in the Avenger and all of their families. I really hope the root cause of the problem, the guy in the Honda Civic, is caught and held acccountable.

 

For ME, as i usually stipulate just for me.., That is one reason why i usually ride kinda fast. If im doing the passing and im out in front of traffic, i can control my environment. If you ride in a pack of cars you are completely vulnerable to what they do. If I am passing them and pulling away from them, I am in control. I will accept the potenial tickets for my riding style, in trade for my sense of security. If I crash it will be because I made a mistake, not because of ALLOWING cars to control my world. Again this is JUST me. Sorry to the friends and family!

[Bill246]

First off i will say my heart felt simpathys are with the love ones and familys.....The speed of the bikes as it seems everyone is looking at is not the issuse it was the cars making illegal moves plan a simple

[Norm 88]

+ 1

[Green RT]

First off i will say my heart felt simpathys are with the love ones and familys.....The speed of the bikes as it seems everyone is looking at is not the issuse it was the cars making illegal moves plan a simple

I agree that under the law the motorcycles were doing nothing illegal. And it was a bad decision on the part of the car driver that tried to pass without sufficient time that resulted in the catastrophe. However... Being in the right legally is not the same as doing everything possible to protect yourself. It appears the group made two mistakes that might have helped to avoid the situation: 1) if they had cars backed up behind them, let them pass; 2) ride with enough space between the bikes that cars could pass them a few at a time, instead of forcing cars to attempt to pass the whole group at once.

[Twisties]

I agree that under the law the motorcycles were doing nothing illegal.

 

If they were in fact riding tightly bunched then at least where I live that would have been quite illegal in it's own right. Utah requires both a 2 second minimum following distance (about 180 feet at 65 mph), and also requires that you leave enough space for a vehicle to merge in front of you. You must allow the merge. If the bikes prevented the Accord driver from pulling back in, and forced him to pass the entire group of bikes at once they would certainly share in the liability, in addition to their criminal acts.

 

If, as some have supposed, they were also going slow and not letting the Accord by, they might also have been guilty of obstructing, at least, as I say, around here.

 

2) ride with enough space between the bikes that cars could pass them a few at a time, instead of forcing cars to attempt to pass the whole group at once.

 

Ding Ding Ding... we have a winner!

 

 

 

I also wonder about the oncoming driver. I'd say he/she didn't do very well here either. Seems like every time I've had an oncoming car in my lane there has been plenty of time to react safely. Sharon said they were blood testing that driver. I wonder if he/she was on the phone? Sounds like he panicked. I guess there might be circumstances that justify it, but hard to figure midday on a straight road.

 

My take on this, given what little we know, is that it seems likely that everyone has a pretty good share of the blame, although that could easily change with more info.

 

[upflying]

I also wonder about the liability of the Saddletramps MC. The oncoming Avenger was driven by a man who lives in Mexicali, Mexico. He is under arrest for DUI. The owner of the car was the passenger and she is dead. The Honda Civic that passed illegally is gone with the wind. So who do the survivors seek compensation from for the deaths of their loved ones? The motorcycle club and their board of directors? Since the club organized the ride are they on the hook civilly? Before you go on a group ride, ask the organizer what kind of insurance they have.

[Twisties]

The board and club members should not be personally liable, at least the way clubs in UT are incorporated. Obviously I don't know about CA.

 

The club can be held liable, but they typically have no significant assets. If they are sued they would likely declare bankruptcy, disband and reform under a new entity. But why sue something with no assets? Insurance just invites a suit, I think.

 

[Edit] If they aren't incorporated then things may well be quite different.[/edit]

 

 

 

 

[Mister Tee]

The board and club members should not be personally liable, at least the way clubs in UT are incorporated. Obviously I don't know about CA.

 

The club can be held liable, but they typically have no significant assets. If they are sued they would likely declare bankruptcy, disband and reform under a new entity. But why sue something with no assets? Insurance just invites a suit, I think.

 

[Edit] If they aren't incorporated then things may well be quite different.[/edit]

 

 

 

Individuals are still liable for their personal actions. Acts of criminal negligence and civil damage cannot be shielded by a corporation. If a CEO of a company causes an auto accident during a business trip and the company's general and auto liability insurance defaults on coverage, the individual can be sued. There is case law precendent for that.

 

[longjohn]

Another good reason to avoid group rides.

I hope that Joe in Coarsegold isn't swayed to your way of thinking. Joe, are you out there? Are you doing the north-south get-together again this year?

[tallman]

Sad.

 

In Florida it is very easy to pierce the corporate shield.

Insurance for a mc group isn't cheap and it doesn't prevent actions against the individuals and the entity from both taking place.

 

I belong to several "clubs", some organized and recognized with BOD's and insurance.

Some require dues and elect officers, some don't.

I was going to have my club join the MOA but chose not to do so.

As of now it has two members and we won't be suing each other.

 

[Agent_Orange]

By the late and great George Harrison.

 

[upflying]

Maybe the answer to group ride liability is to have each rider sign a hold harmless letter like this one.

http://www.sierrashadowcasters.com/waiverform.pdf

I would reckon however a smart attorney could poke these letters full of holes..

[beemerman2k]

Tragic for the bikers, the people in the Avenger and all of their families. I really hope the root cause of the problem, the guy in the Honda Civic, is caught and held acccountable.

 

For ME, as i usually stipulate just for me.., That is one reason why i usually ride kinda fast. If im doing the passing and im out in front of traffic, i can control my environment. If you ride in a pack of cars you are completely vulnerable to what they do. If I am passing them and pulling away from them, I am in control. I will accept the potenial tickets for my riding style, in trade for my sense of security. If I crash it will be because I made a mistake, not because of ALLOWING cars to control my world. Again this is JUST me. Sorry to the friends and family!

 

Same here, buddy. For me, too

[sardineone]

Can't remember the source but, distancing oneself from traffic at a stoplight once under green and going slightly faster than the speed of the flow of traffic are two survival strategies in traffic. And man have I been cained for my view on this board for using a High Beam headlight during daylight hours. One thing assured, passing traffic will see me comming!

 

Also sorry for the fallen riders as well. I only comment as I'd love not losing any more riders to accidents.

[notacop]

High beams don't help when cars are all over the road avoiding other cars. But I use mind during the day as you do when I feel like it. And my driving lights.

Herd mentality wasn't intended for motorcycle travel.

Why do these groups insist of the sardine can formation? It is really so sad when fun loving folks make mistakes that have such horrific costs.

Reminds me of a video posts a while back of another group disaster brought on be too many motorcycles in too small of a space. Very unfortunate.

Even when the groups I ride with proceeds down the road, we are separated by space for safety. Even more so when the road gets twisty.

Whatever the group, they should never impede traffic by insisting on a holding a formation.

[ratfink]

Whatever the group, they should never impede traffic by insisting on a holding a formation.

 

A.K.A. "Rolling Roadblock"

[Linz]

I too feel that travelling like Wildebeest in migration is just asking for trouble. Normally I ride alone but when I do ride with friends, there's a 100 yards or more between us. I simply will not ride amongst 4 wheeled traffic other than when I have no choice in town. I believe that I should be either a long way in front OR way back behind but not stuck where I could end up looking like I'd been intimate with a car crusher.

 

My lights are on because it's law here, but they'd be on anyway.

 

I've had difficulty in passing large groups of Harley riders in the past. They do seem to bunch up and go slower than the posted limit for some reason. Nothing against the Hog, but it always seems to be guys on Hogs. I have no idea what that's about...

 

I've been deliberately blocked from overtaking as well, even in legal zones for overtaking. My Daytona can get past them easily if I can see far enough in front but their behavior forces me to seriously break the law to get past those groups. It doesn't happen often but it's getting more frequent.

 

Cheers all,

 

Linz

[tallman]

Maybe the answer to group ride liability is to have each rider sign a hold harmless letter like this one.

http://www.sierrashadowcasters.com/waiverform.pdf

I would reckon however a smart attorney could poke these letters full of holes..

 

 

They don't even need to be smart.

We've had recent cases where parents signed consent forms for child to use X at place Y and it didn't hold up.

Waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on , IMO.

After looking into forming a club, as I said above, it was decided that too much liability and risk was attached, again, IMO.

So, there's a club, has a name, but it is very exclusive.

 

[4wheeldog]

Maybe the answer to group ride liability is to have each rider sign a hold harmless letter like this one.

http://www.sierrashadowcasters.com/waiverform.pdf

I would reckon however a smart attorney could poke these letters full of holes..

 

 

They don't even need to be smart.

We've had recent cases where parents signed consent forms for child to use X at place Y and it didn't hold up.

Waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on , IMO.

After looking into forming a club, as I said above, it was decided that too much liability and risk was attached, again, IMO.

So, there's a club, has a name, but it is very exclusive.

 

My riding club is so exclusive that I am the only one in it. Some days, I wonder why I let me in.

[tallman]

As Groucho would say, "I wouldn't belong to a club that would allow me to be a member."

 

Kidding aside, it is obvious that many enjoy that type of riding and association.

What do we need?

Enforcement of existing laws, new laws, education, or what, to prevent such accidents?

[beemerman2k]

Rider education. Access to good learning and the desire to learn.

 

Barring that and beyond that, all bets are off.

[Penforhire]

Very tragic. Regardless of the formation on this day, this could happen to any one of us since we are, mostly, trusting people to stay in their lanes.

 

Oh, and I hate seeing strings of more than six bikes in a row. They are inevitably slow (okay, all but the Ducati club guys I rode with once).