Lane Placement Group Ride

[motorman587]

Thought I would share this on a recent civil case that ended this week. It is about a group ride that ended in one death and three injuries. One very serious, lost of limb.

 

It starts on a long stretch of roadway. Clear day. 5 motorcycles, 2 on trike. Lead rider is in the left front the rest are staggered behind. The trikes are in the center behind each other.

 

In the area of the collision there was bicyclist on the opposite shoulder. There were two vehicles approaching the bicyclist. The lead motorcyclist does not see the bicyclist, however stated she saw the cars 3/4 miles away approaching.

 

As vehicles and motorcycle approach the bicyclist one vehicle starts to move towards the dotted line. Lead riders keeps her ground, does not move. Second vehicle cross the dotted line and strikes the lead motorcycle and causes a chain reaction.

 

Lead rider stated she has a right to be in that lane and does not have to move over.

 

Case in point you can be "Dead Right".

 

Nice video on group riding by MSF.

 

 

[4wheeldog]

I am not inclined to be overly quick in moving over to accomodate someone coming over the line.......I do not know what they are doing, and I try not to commit until they do. If it is apparent that they are trying to pass, then moving to the right is the best move. But if they are moving over to the shoulder on your side, moving right could be fatal. So my inclination is to hit the brakes, and wait as long as possible before committing to evasive action. See this advrider post for how this can turn out:

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631454

 

I suspect that is not what was going on in your example......The lead rider failed to notice the cyclist, so freezing or target fixation are more likely. Part of the reason I do not like to ride in groups is that I am subject to all the other rider's bad decisions.

[tallman]

She was right.

Didn't have to move over.

Probably would've been a better choice to do so.

 

My "group" rides, as you know ,

I want the whole lane, I want my six open, don't crowd me from side or behind.

I can ride that way but I choose not to.

Too many variables and potential for problems.

Keeping a couple second of operating room between motos is a good rule of thmb IMO.

Too often the follower fixates on the bike ahead and Lemming like outcome may result.

 

 

[upflying]

Who were the plaintiffs and the defendants?

I will move to the right if I see a head-on cage coming at me in my lane. I will even dive into the shoulder if necessary.

Even if the lead rider had moved right, bikes behind would have still gotten nailed.

It's a lot of work to group ride. I prefer the more relaxed solo riding.

 

[motorman587]

Who were the plaintiffs and the defendants?

I will move to the right if I see a head-on cage coming at me in my lane. I will even dive into the shoulder if necessary.

Even if the lead rider had moved right, bikes behind would have still gotten nailed.

It's a lot of work to group ride. I prefer the more relaxed solo riding.

The plaintiff was the motorcycle rider and the defendant was the car driver and insurance company.

[motorman587]

She was right.

Didn't have to move over.

Probably would've been a better choice to do so.

 

My "group" rides, as you know ,

I want the whole lane, I want my six open, don't crowd me from side or behind.

I can ride that way but I choose not to.

Too many variables and potential for problems.

Keeping a couple second of operating room between motos is a good rule of thmb IMO.

Too often the follower fixates on the bike ahead and Lemming like outcome may result.

 

She was death right, killing her friend..........

[motorman587]

I am not inclined to be overly quick in moving over to accomodate someone coming over the line.......I do not know what they are doing, and I try not to commit until they do. If it is apparent that they are trying to pass, then moving to the right is the best move. But if they are moving over to the shoulder on your side, moving right could be fatal. So my inclination is to hit the brakes, and wait as long as possible before committing to evasive action. See this advrider post for how this can turn out:

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=631454

 

I suspect that is not what was going on in your example......The lead rider failed to notice the cyclist, so freezing or target fixation are more likely. Part of the reason I do not like to ride in groups is that I am subject to all the other rider's bad decisions.

 

 

SHe saw the cars not the bicyclist. More not paying attention.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I am frequently chased to the other edge of my lane by cars crossing the double yellow to pass bicyclists. I have no idea what gives them the notion they can do this. I frequently flip them off and I'm starting to think about carrying a ripe orange or two in my tank bag. I do, however, get out of the way. The calculation is simple. Closing speed ~70 mph, mass of car about 3500 lbs, mass of bike and rider about 600 lbs. Energy to be dissipated = much more than the human body will absorb.

 

Group riding mentality, or lack of thoght/common sense. Deadly in this case and tragic in many others. Big group for me is 3 and I'm pretty sure I know the other 2.

[Mister Tee]

Whether she saw the bicyclist or not is not the issue. It's just plain stupid to intentionally collide with an oncoming vehicle, even if it is wrongly in your lane. Riders and drivers generally have the requirement to reasonably avoid an accident.

[James Clark]

She was right.

Didn't have to move over.

Probably would've been a better choice to do so.

 

My "group" rides, as you know ,

I want the whole lane, I want my six open, don't crowd me from side or behind.

I can ride that way but I choose not to.

Too many variables and potential for problems.

Keeping a couple second of operating room between motos is a good rule of thmb IMO.

Too often the follower fixates on the bike ahead and Lemming like outcome may result.

 

She was death right, killing her friend..........

 

Why are you making excuses for the driver?

 

What was his BAC?

[russell_bynum]

Whether she saw the bicyclist or not is not the issue. It's just plain stupid to intentionally collide with an oncoming vehicle, even if it is wrongly in your lane. Riders and drivers generally have the requirement to reasonably avoid an accident.

 

Happens all the time.

 

An acquaintance of our was in a pretty serious crash on the freeway about 10 years ago. He was on his Harley, crusing in the right lane. A pickup truck pulling a big trailer was merging onto the freeway. He was in the pickup's blind spot, or the driver didn't look...but the bottom line is the driver didn't see him. The truck got on the freeway and merged all the way over to the left lane. The rider stayed right there next to the trailer, moving left as the truck did, revving his motor wildly trying to get the driver's attention. Eventually he ran out of road and went on the shoulder. At that point he panicked, locked the brakes, and crashed.

 

All he had to do was twist the throttle bit, or lightly apply the brakes and it would have been a total non-issue.

[upflying]

Maybe the lead rider didn't intentionally crash. Some (or maybe all) people react to fear and panic by "freezing up" or suffering brain lock, unable to react and avoid the source of the fear and panic?

[russell_bynum]

Maybe the lead rider didn't intentionally crash. Some (or maybe all) people react to fear and panic by "freezing up" or suffering brain lock, unable to react and avoid the source of the fear and panic?

 

It's hard to tell from the description that we've got, but it sounds like there was plenty of time to react.

 

But...if you don't react until the car's right on top of you, then yes...you're likely to freeze.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Bob makes an excellent point.

The reaction time for a complex reaction (other than hitting the brakes and becoming a ballistic missile) is on the order of 2.5 seconds and, with some, infinity (freezing up). Simple reaction time is much less. For a highly experienced adept rider, a lane or position change is a simple reaction. Not necessarily so for a new or infrequent rider...this seems to be the bulk of group riders.

The first car could have easily blocked the view to the second until it crossed out of the block. Assume the closing velocity is on the order of 150 feet per second (each 50 mph). For the inexperienced rider, seeing the second car 400 feet away still gets them in a crash. It also takes time for the bike to move out of the way. Throw another 1 second on there for moving to the other position and you're over 500 feet away.

 

While the plaintiffs stated argument gives pause, it could be to avoid a counterargument of being an incompetent rider and, therefore a big contributor to the collision and a knockdown factor to the award.

 

[Rockrib]

Not to make light of this person's death, but "Technically I Had The Right Of Way" is a lousy epitaph.

[motorman587]

Maybe the lead rider didn't intentionally crash. Some (or maybe all) people react to fear and panic by "freezing up" or suffering brain lock, unable to react and avoid the source of the fear and panic?

 

It's hard to tell from the description that we've got, but it sounds like there was plenty of time to react.

 

But...if you don't react until the car's right on top of you, then yes...you're likely to freeze.

 

Russell she had more than enough time to slightly move to the center or right side. She was not "reading" the traffic coming towards her. Head up a$$. But her testimony is what blew my mind.

[upflying]

But does a driver have the legal responsibility to "read" and anticipate unlawful acts by other traffic? Morally of course, we should all drive and ride defensively to protect ourselves from harm. But legally, must a driver do so? By legally, I am referring to a code, law or statute that says you are compelled to avoid a collision if the opportunity exists?

John, is there such a law in Florida?

[motorman587]

But does a driver have the legal responsibility to "read" and anticipate unlawful acts by other traffic? Morally of course, we should all drive and ride defensively to protect ourselves from harm. But legally, must a driver do so? By legally, I am referring to a code, law or statute that says you are compelled to avoid a collision if the opportunity exists?

John, is there such a law in Florida?

 

No you all are correct, legally the motorcyclist was in the right, the car driver wrong, however when it comes in to the civil side there are more taken into consideration when it comes to $$$ in a civil case, not only money there was injury and death, so when we ride we have to take all that into play.

 

This post was to make point on that there is a lot of responsibility when are leading a group ride that we do not think about.

[upflying]

Correct John, if you accept the job of ride captain..you are sticking your neck out civilly.

[David13]

I'm not sure of the current law anywhere but in comparative negligence states, if the law applies due to the facts, your damage award can be reduced by the percent amount that your own negligence contributed to your damages.

In other words the law can penalize you for not getting out of the way, if you can. But isn't that just common sense?

dc

[Indy Dave]

I have had big-rig drivers ask me (because they know I ride)Why it is that the many motorcyclists (solo or group) ride so close the the center line? It seems they often have a 'chicken' or macho mentality. A slight drift by a big truck or the bike (or car) would end in doom.

 

LEAVE ROOM FOR ERROR - yours and theirs!

 

I agree with the OP. You can be right - dead right.

[upflying]

I have had big-rig drivers ask me (because they know I ride)Why it is that the many motorcyclists (solo or group) ride so close the the center line? It seems they often have a 'chicken' or macho mentality. A slight drift by a big truck or the bike (or car) would end in doom.

 

LEAVE ROOM FOR ERROR - yours and theirs!

 

I agree with the OP. You can be right - dead right.

What part of the lane should you ride in?

[BerndM]

Pretty stupid to play Chicken with a 2 ton cage headed your way.

I guess if that's your idea of a good time, more power to you.

Common sense dictates you have no choice but to yield to the car .

What the one poster said is sooo true, "You can be DEAD RIGHT!"

 

[4wheeldog]

The "Captain" getting out of the way would not have helped those following. Hitting the brakes early, giving everyone the heads up to the danger, might have had some effect. But whether she got hit has little to do with folks behind being able to see and avoid.

[Indy Dave]

I have had big-rig drivers ask me (because they know I ride)Why it is that the many motorcyclists (solo or group) ride so close the the center line? It seems they often have a 'chicken' or macho mentality. A slight drift by a big truck or the bike (or car) would end in doom.

 

LEAVE ROOM FOR ERROR - yours and theirs!

 

I agree with the OP. You can be right - dead right.

What part of the lane should you ride in?

 

Personally, I want the WHOLE lane. My intent was not to start an already well debated discussion about ideal lane positioning. My comment was aimed at what I'd suggest we've all seen in our autos and what I and other big rig drivers see - riders who will hug the center lane as if to 'dare you to cross', and that by doing so they place themselves in greater (needless) exposure; that if either party were to drift, have a blow out, momentary inattention, mechanical error or any number of other situations would not go well for the rider - no matter who was at fault - thus to reinforce the OP's 'dead right' summation.

 

Perhaps its the 'thrill' of knowing 80,000lbs traveling at 60mph (with accompanying wind gust) just came 10 inches from clobbering you head-on, I don't know. For me, I'm just thrilled to make it home after each ride.

[Groanup]

"Lead rider stated she has a right to be in that lane and does not have to move over."

 

A ton or more of platic, glass, and steel trumps "right of way" every time. If she froze due to inexperience, why was she "leading" the ride?

Or am I making too much sense?

When I'm riding on a long stretch of two lane, no matter where I am in my lane, and I see any other vehicle coming towards me, I move over to the right. It doesn't take much effort and the advantages are many. Even then, I've been pelted by "stuff" coming from off or under the aproaching vehicle. I once got a large chunk of tire in the ribs from a big rig... That wasn't fun at all...

 

 

 

[Indy Dave]

Too late to use the edit feature - I intended to say "hug the center LINE, not lane.

[FLrider]

In my other life, I was the RC in an MC. I was, in fact, responsible for the lives of everyone in that pack.

 

Every yellow light required a decision. Stopping was not always the right answer. Would always make my azz pucker.

 

What this RC should have done, (assuming the RC saw car 1 cross over the centerline, 3/4 mile away) IMHO was raised her/his arm, signaling a single file position and move to that part of the lane (right third) he/she wanted to the single file line to track. The first car crossing over was a dead give away.

 

I suspect that this "group" didn't ride together very often and probably did not have a communication methodology that they were all familiar with.

 

Sad. But, SH's.

 

Riding in a group, 10-20 large, does NOT have to be a cluster F.

 

Having said that, I DON'T ride in the middle of any group whose riders and skills I don't know well.

[tallman]

That may have worked for you and those folks but I would never put my responsibility on a "Ride Captain" wrt safe riding.

If you are so mired in a group that your visibility is obscured and you must rely on the RC, you're too damf close, IMO.

Yellow lights?

Do the right thing.

If all don't make it thru, slow down and regroup down the road.

Too much structure leads to unecessary stress, again IMO.

I'd rather rely on pre ride discussion and knowing that the destination is understood and that along the way any separation can be dealt with because there will be a place to do so like a stop sign, T intersection.

I've never come up on a group of 10-20 riders who didn't impede flow of traffic, just as a logjam of 10-20 cars will too.

Smaller groupings, more space, common goals, less "group mentality" works for me.

YMMV.

 

[ratfink]

I have ridden a few times in large groups of riders, many of which I met for the first time. It was the most dangerous and scary riding I have ever done.

 

If anyone asked my advice about group riding I would suggest the following:

 

Keep the group small and people you are familiar with. More than 4 makes me nervous.

 

Ride at a pace that it is unlikely anyone will want to pass you.

 

If anyone is atempting a pass, spreadout enough that they can. Give them some room or pullover. If they are trying to pass a group of spirited riders they're probably an inherent threat to your health anyway.

 

Same as solo riding, expect the unexpected, ride like your invisible and don't try to crowd cars or trucks cuz you might lose big time.

 

 

[MotorinLA]

[hijack]Didn't we just have a discussion about passing/driving left of double yellow lines? I'm sure the driver of the car thought is was safe to pass on the double yellows, too.[/hijack] :frown:

 

I think there are many things that could be taken away from this post.

 

One being that regardless of whether one is riding in groups or solo, there is always the danger that someone will cross into your lane from the on-coming lane. Especially if that on-coming lane is somehow obstructed (be it a bike, a spill, a slow-moving vehicle, etc.). In the city I see this on a regular basis. If there is an obstruction in the road, many drivers don't hesitate to drive into the on-coming lane, even when there is traffic coming in that lane.

 

Another being that when you ride in a group your "group reaction time" is much, much longer than that of each separate rider in that group individually. Planning ahead by the lead rider and even more anticipation than usual is therefore crucial. Which, I suspect is one of the reasons many here don't like group rides.

[David13]

(Quote) If there is an obstruction in the road, many drivers don't hesitate to drive into the on-coming lane, even when there is traffic coming in that lane. (End quote)

 

And I like to anticipate that, and adjust accordingly. Rather than crash.

 

(Quote) Another being that when you ride in a group your "group reaction time" is much, much longer than that of each separate rider in that group individually. Planning ahead by the lead rider and even more anticipation than usual is therefore crucial. Which, I suspect is one of the reasons many here don't like group rides. (End quote)

 

In a group the error of one can affect the entire group. The recklessness, inadvertence, excess speed, etc., can affect the entire group.

 

I'm not a big fan of group rides.

My motto is I Ride My Own Ride, and that goes out the window in a group.

dc

[Nomad Indy]

Just returned from Guanzhou, China by way of Hong Kong, rode a motorcycle there. Earlier trip to India this year.

I ride frequently in Brasil, Argentina and Bolivia.

 

You learn to pick your path wisely and observe all happening anywhere in you intended path.

The unfortunate thing about the U.S. is believing that all vehicles are obliged to respect the law.

 

Ride in these other countries and you become much less "my space" oriented and more situational awareness.

[Survived-til-now]

Whenever I see traffic coming up on a cyclist that is coming towards me I anticipate that someone will pull over the line rather than slow and wait behind the cyclist and now the reasons for vehicles crossing the line seem to have expanded to include potholes, inattention, phoning/texting etc etc - I move over whenever traffic is coming at me in the other lane......

 

The complicating factor in this was the group ride. The leader didn't see the cyclist but then it seems neither did any of the other riders, or if they did, they didn't see the danger. Is there a group dynamic here where the riders following abdicate some of their self-preservation instinct to those in front?

 

Group rides seem to involve following at distances that would be judged far too close in any other circumstances and this accident illustrates the penalty for doing so.

 

Afraid I have given up group rides - fun though they might have been.

[Huzband]

The rider stayed right there next to the trailer, moving left as the truck did, revving his motor wildly trying to get the driver's attention.

 

So much for "loud pipes save lives". That rider didn't die, but you get the point.

 

Now, a question that goes back to the plaintiff's point. She said she didn't move because she "didn't have to". Here's my question.

 

If you're in a car or truck, & you see a motorcycle veering into your lane, whether it be an obvious reason or not, would you give way? Or would you hold your position because you have a right to?

 

Seems easy to me.

[Groanup]

Yeah, that is easy.

 

I'm giving way as much as possible. Probably on the brakes too...

I don't want to be involved in that crash from either end...

 

Some rights are worth dying for. This isn't one of them.

 

[tallman]

What kind of bike?

[russell_bynum]

The rider stayed right there next to the trailer, moving left as the truck did, revving his motor wildly trying to get the driver's attention.

 

So much for "loud pipes save lives". That rider didn't die, but you get the point.

 

Now, a question that goes back to the plaintiff's point. She said she didn't move because she "didn't have to". Here's my question.

 

If you're in a car or truck, & you see a motorcycle veering into your lane, whether it be an obvious reason or not, would you give way? Or would you hold your position because you have a right to?

 

Seems easy to me.

 

If I can avoid them without putting myself at risk, sure. But if it's me or them? Buh bye. i.e. If me swerving to avoid you puts me in more danger...sorry but I'm running your ass over.

[EddyQ]

If there is an obstruction in the road, many drivers don't hesitate to drive into the on-coming lane, even when there is traffic coming in that lane.

 

Especially if it is a motorcycle. This driver is the sole cause of the crash IMO. Sure, the motorcyclists should have seen the bike obstruction, car coming close to the line and taken some safety measures. But the second car in line, who had no visibility past the car in front of him decides it is ok to swerve into the other lane killing folks. Yes, this happens far too often and it is wrong. It is never ok to drive across the line unless the line is clear.

 

You use to get citations for crossing a solid line. I haven't heard of anyone getting one in over 20 years. What is up with that?

Now, I often see drivers come around blind corners in my lane. I even had a driver cross a double yellow in front of a local police station to make a left turn in front of me. It is wrong and this incident is a result of it. A shame.

[4wheeldog]

The rider stayed right there next to the trailer, moving left as the truck did, revving his motor wildly trying to get the driver's attention.

 

So much for "loud pipes save lives". That rider didn't die, but you get the point.

 

Now, a question that goes back to the plaintiff's point. She said she didn't move because she "didn't have to". Here's my question.

 

If you're in a car or truck, & you see a motorcycle veering into your lane, whether it be an obvious reason or not, would you give way? Or would you hold your position because you have a right to?

 

Seems easy to me.

 

Everything is easy until you have the inevitable complications and unintended consequences.

If you are certain that the opposing driver is just putting 2 wheels over the line and returning to their side, by all means move over........But what if he is actually pulling off to the left shoulder......Then swerving to your right might be fatal.

 

If you have some reason to believe one or the other, you can respond with your best judgement. But if you don't, maximum braking until you see where you have some space will buy you some time.

[tallman]

Agree, sorta, but of course that may start a chain reaction behind you if riders are in close stagger formation.

Another reasosn I don't ride that way.

[4wheeldog]

I was stating this from a "Lone rider" viewpoint.......I do not ride in parades, when I do ride with other riders, it is with safe following distances in play......on the order of 3 second rule.

[plext]

I find the attitude "I don't have to move over so I won't" more than somewhat on the foolish side of obstinate. I'm all for asserting your position on the road, but the limit for me is defined a long way from impact with large hard things.

 

Personally, on the open road I like ride toward the centre of the road as this gives me the largest margin in relation to unexpected obstructions coming from the verges. This changes with oncoming traffic however, where I move fully over to the left (if you live in a country that drives on the right, please read this post with a mirror so it makes sense) and give myself room to hopefully live when, not if, somebody does something idiotic.

 

While this approach does have me more or less slaloming down the road at some points, I still feel it has merit. The constant observation and reaction keeps me alert on longer rides and the sideways motion is generally easier for the people in their mobile phone booths to pick up on.

 

Bottom line, I'll assert my road space and even protect it to a degree, but I won't be dying for it any time soon.