Do you actually "push" on the OUTSIDE grip prior to entering your turn?

[FLrider]

I very familiar with counter steering theory and, like you, make effective use of pushing on the inside grip to make the bike turn in the direction you want it to go.

 

However, I took the Lee Parks course Saturday and they teach pushing on the outside grip prior to entering the turn while simultaneously pre positioning your body in advance of entering the turn point. (Hanging at least one butt cheek over the inside line)

 

I may already be doing this subconsciously or maybe I don't understand the concept.

 

Pushing on the outside grip prior to turn reminds me of cage drivers who, in prep for a right hand turn, will turn their steering wheel left first, and then turn the wheel sharply right.

 

You can always spot them as they look like they are about to do a lane change, just before the turn.

 

I've been riding for many, many years. Never been down. (Knock on Wood). But it seems the more edumacation I get, the dumber I feel.

 

Am I missing something?

 

 

 

 

[VinnyR11]

I'm going through this in my mind's eye, and don't think I do that, but I'll check and also try it out on my next ride. It's so true that you're never too old or too experienced to learn something new. Do you find that it helps?

 

When I took the Keith Code's California Superbike School classes I learned something that really helped me regarding "pushing on the grip" during a turn. You might want to try this out as well.

 

Keeping to the OP, speaking strictly of hand movement effects(ignoring body position), many of us, myself included at that time, get the bike to lean into a turn by pushing the inside grip forward AND DOWN into the turn. Kind of like trying to push the bike down with our grip into the lean. My instructor pointed out that the sole reason for pushing the inside grip is to get the wheel turned which then helps lean the bike, your downward push is doing little if anything.

 

The fastest way to get the wheel turned is to only push forward on the inside grip. Your push should be parallel to the grips steering axis rotation. To better imagine this, picture how you would turn the wheel just sitting on the bike while on the center stand. Trying both methods leaning the bike quickly from left to right I find the transitions noticeably quicker doing it this way.

 

Worth a shot.

 

 

[notacop]

I really don't know that leaving ones' seat is really necessary to negotiate a turn. Sitting in the same place seems to work for me but their are times I find myself using some body english in the twisties. It would seem that these 'professional' instructors would have us use race track techniques to go the market.

Your mention of the cagers turning to set up for a curve... I watched a fellow in a Porch ahead of me do this yesterday. We were going fairly slow on a windy , hilly residential route. Looked a bit weird but I guess it made him happy. I couldn't see where moving to the right made his cornering any smoother in a left hand turn and versy vicey.

[tallman]

I think I've been behind that Porch before too.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

However, I took the Lee Parks course Saturday and they teach pushing on the outside grip prior to entering the turn while simultaneously pre positioning your body in advance of entering the turn point. (Hanging at least one butt cheek over the inside line)

 

Many riders, myself included, have a tendency to position themselves farther than necessary from the fog line, and also to turn in too early; there may be an instinctive fear of going off the outside of the turn at work here.

 

Is it possible they are teaching you a trick that helps you get closer to the fog line and also delays turn-in?

[Woodie]

I do. (Because I took the same class!)

 

I see it as:

I've moved my body/weight towards the inside of the turn, but I'm not at the "late apex" yet, so I don't actually want to turn the bike yet. So, in order to avoid the bike leaning/turning in, I push the outside bar a little, to counterbalance my weight.

 

This keeps me straight, up until the point where I *want* to make my turn in. (Eg, a late apex --very different from cars)

 

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

$0.02 I know little about Ride Smart or anyone's teaching for that matter but what FLrider describes sounds like a method of starting the turn wide in prep for a late apex. Drivers do it frequently to set up a driveway entrance. It seems weird to me. Why not be in the right place to begin with? What Woodie says describes makes sense and maybe an unconscious thing we do. I never thought about it from that prospective.

 

Turning a motorcycle is so automatic to me I don't dwell on it much. Grip mounted strain sensors might give good data on this push pull idea. I'm inclined to believe I pull with one hand and push with the other at the same time. And I do it quickly and forcefully if in a brisk pace mode. As for body position with the one cheek sneak it does move the load for easier cornering but certainly not required in all corners. It feels good though, and gets you in the mood. I think it also assists in concentrating on the task instead of checking out the fall colors or geology of the road cuts.

 

Mitch maybe on to something. I pass on cornering instruction occasionally and many riders tell me they are spooked by getting close to the fog line. Yeah it can be dirty, or have drop off shoulders, or no guard rail.

 

My mantra has always been late apex. I can't stress that enough. Especially on public roads where you don't have to defend your line as in racing. Racing is for tracks and is different than just riding a brisk pace. You pay for the whole lane so use it. If riders get the late apex concept I feel they can eventually break the fear of the outside lane positioning. Speed is another factor in where you begin turning.

[TestPilot]

Woodie has the correct answer. Pushing on the outside grip prevents the bike from turning in early when you preposition your weight to the inside. The bike doesn't turn out before turning in; the outside push and the weight shift counterbalance each other, and the bike tracks in a straight line. It's very similar to riding in a crosswind.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I still fall back on Voodoo's quote, "Steer with your elbows."

 

Just prior to a turn, on the street, I'll do a mental chicken wing flap and all but let go of the bars so that the push to the inside bar is the only input I am giving the bike. I do this on every turn every time.

 

I will have positioned my upper body well before the turn but I leave my butt firmly on the seat, well not real firmly cause I'm weighting the pegs with the balls of my feet. My body positioning antics have no effect on the bike's lean angle as when I do so, I put zero input into the bars.

[ElevenFifty]

Speaking of 'late apex' ... I have found that, for me, 90% of good technique is in my head. I have recently begun to set up for the turn and then, as I lean into it, I remind myself to 'Wait for the apex'. The result is that the apex often passes with me going faster, leaning further, riding a very good late apex turn, but never really thinking 'turn in now'. This sounds silly I guess - but the mindset to 'Wait' does the trick for me.

[Penforhire]

Not me, conscious of pushing the inside grip only. When I initiate a turn (after the 'slow' & 'look' phases, to use MSF jargon) I want immediate lean, not any built-in delay.

 

When I'm hustling through, say, an s-series I move my shoulder toward the turns. I'm not so sporty as to start hanging off but I notice that my shoulder presses are effective at keeping the bike more upright and/or carrying more speed in turns comfortably.

[FLrider]

It's very similar to riding in a crosswind.

 

Ahh! I see what they mean. What a great analogy.

 

So, following the concept of OIO (outside, inside, outside) in attacking the turn, you stay on the outside of the curve, pre positioning your body for the inside lean. But, to avoid coming in too early (crosswind) you just input outside grip to keep you straight up until ready to flop the bike into the lean (inside push).

 

Yes. Well, While I did take the class to improve my cornering skills, I think I'll keep my azz fully in the saddle, use a little upper body / shoulder english and take those turns as I have in the past. Slowly.

 

No knee dragging for me....

 

PS: Here's the example they use in class to define "premature initiation" (coming into the turn too soon). Slow steering (not leaning, pushing inside grip quickly enough) And..fifty pencing (named after the coin with multiple edges), to describe the rider who makes multiple adjustments during the turn to correct a multitude of line selection, entry and exit errors.

 

[TestPilot]

You've got it.

[rad]

Could be just me, but, the press initially in the opposite direction to set up for a turn is something I sometimes do. It creates a very crisp and quick turn in for me rather than a more lazy turn in. I liken to a runner going straight ahead then shifting their weight slightly to the left to plant in order to cut to the right. For me it comes into play setting up for the first in a series of S turns. The first one is tougher for me than all the subsequent ones for the bike appears easier for me to transition from side to side rather than making it make that first initial lean from the very stable going straight position.

 

Not being a physics guy, the logic appears to be that the motorcycle going straight ahead is extremely stable and therefore the bike wants to resist turning in. If the bike has already moved ever so slightly off that very stable axis it appears to respond quicker to me to the turn in pressure.

 

Weird, I know

 

[Horse]

 

FWIW, I initiate a turn by pressing on the 'inside' bar, maintain pressure (if needed) by pulling on the outside bar, but if a quick 'tighten' is needed will press again on the inside bar.

 

 

Penforhire mentioned S-LLR; here's my 'take' on a cornering system:

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-many-ss-in-motorcycling.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-s-theory.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/cornering-continued.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/cornering-missing-link.html

 

 

 

[Horse]

 

FWIW, I initiate a turn by pressing on the 'inside' bar, maintain pressure (if needed) by pulling on the outside bar, but if a quick 'tighten' is needed will press again on the inside bar.

 

 

Penforhire mentioned S-LLR; here's my 'take' on a cornering system:

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-many-ss-in-motorcycling.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-s-theory.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/cornering-continued.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/09/cornering-missing-link.html

 

 

 

[Danny S]

 

I've read Park's book, but I must have overlooked the pressing on the outside bar while leaning inside before the turn.

 

I tried it last night on the way home and man it works great! When you finally do press the inside bar for the turn the bike turns really quick!

[Horse]

I've read Park's book, but I must have overlooked the pressing on the outside bar while leaning inside before the turn.

 

It sounds a bit like a variation of Code's 'Power Steering' (using the opposite footrest to push against to steer more quickly), but in the case of Park's 'opposite bar' it's more to balance the bike against body movement causing the bike to move off-line.

 

However, I'm no expert of instructor of either 'school' of thought, so please be guided by what they explain!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

It is actually possible to get your upper body well off the center line of the bike without the need for any steering input to the bars. You can even sneak a cheek off the seat if need be. It does require strong quads and good core muscle conditioning.

[CoarsegoldKid]

It sounds a bit like a variation of Code's 'Power Steering' (using the opposite footrest to push against to steer more quickly)

I've have heard this before. I've experimented with it. I don't think it helps on a stock BMW. I don't see how this can help on a forward set pegs either.

I can't see where this is of any use unless you have reset footpegs. Keeping in mind of course that your arms are bent at the elbows the force is forward not downward. If your hand/arms are pushing forward and your leg is pushing down where is the advantage? On the otherhand if the pegs are reset then the direction of force the leg is exerting is rearward against the fixed peg and I presume then is aiding in the force turning the handlebars.

[Ken H.]

It is actually possible to get your upper body well off the center line of the bike without the need for any steering input to the bars.

Hummm... I have to think about that... If the center of total mass of bike and rider is at anything than along the centerline of the bike it seems to me some handlebar input has to be happening to keep the bike going in a straight line, yes? If not what keeps the bike from starting to fold (and thus lean) and thus turn?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Oh, it'll move alright, but at a glacial pace and you can overcome even that without having to go shoving on the bars.

[Salvie Zack]

Hi everyone new here just signed on great forum. Just want to add my 2 cents. I always steer the bike with both hands and turn left to go right and vice versa. don't know how you could get the bike to respond fast enough to stay on the road with out counter steering. When I am deep in the turn and want to pick the bike up and over to the other side I use opposite presure on the bars. I see no need for leaning when Touring. Maybe that was more than my 2 cents