"...how do you justify $15,000 motorcycles no one wants..."

[John Ranalletta]

My son brougt this to my attention today.

 

Michael Lock, ex Ducati USA CEO. Here.

 

His comment about the number of riders who have a "portfolio" of bikes and how that affects sales is interesting.

[Selden]

I am willing to quibble with his statement about people whose 401Ks and real estate values have been "decimated." A lot of these people would be pleased to suffer only a 10% reduction.

 

A couple of weeks ago, while strolling through the inventory area for the auction at the Barber Vintage Festival, I spotted a Ducati with a translucent fiberglass tank (with the Ducati logo distorted by the molding process) that was advertised as never having been ridden or even started; it was simply a decorative element in someone's living room. "Portfolio" is an interesting term, suggesting investments. We have 4 bikes in the family, but I don't really consider them to be a portfolio. As to motorcycles as leisure vehicles, probably very true for Ducatis, with BMW at the other end of the spectrum. For me, my RT is in lieu of a second car.

[notacop]

I noticed in the article the interviewee has already left the ranks of motorcycle folks. The RATS are running out of the haws holes and down the ropes. Like Electric cars are going to become mainstream any time soon.

Did anybody really think the prior markets could sustain themselves when they are based on pure speculation? Reality check...

[John Ranalletta]

Yikes! What did Lock ever do to you that you'd call him out as a rat? That's a story I'd like to hear.

 

Here's a guy who worked in the moto industry for Triumph, Honda and Ducati - with good results.

 

What's the back story between you two?

 

My son says (and I tend to agree) that in 10 years, Brammo could be selling more bikes through Best Buy than all others at fancy boutique dealerships (that are closing at a faster rate than they are being opened).

[Quinn]

Don't know that I agree with his conclusions. Then again, which conclusions are we talking about?

 

"Where Harley goes in the U.S., the rest of the industry has to follow in many respects." vs Except Japaneese bikes: "They derive a lot of income from sportbikes, and a completely different set of factors is affecting that."

 

"You have to create desire -- the whole mental, intellectual and emotional interface of “I’ve got to have it” and that is largely driven by technology but also the imagery surrounding it and the promotion of racing and all of that." vs "Maybe motorcycling has to go back to being a simpler pursuit rather than the whole posing thing and all the race replicas. It has to go back to being a simpler pleasure."

 

My idea would be for the industry to go all the way back to the "meet the nicest people on a Honda" days and sell bikes as a practical alternative to a second car. Also it would be a good way to introduce motorcyles to a new generation that might not be up to 1200cc monster. Of course, I realize that the profit margins won't be the same as a Harley, BMW, or race-replica. But it did allow people to evolve from 125cc up to touring size as they got older and more demanding.

 

---

 

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

My idea would be for the industry to go all the way back to the "meet the nicest people on a Honda" days and sell bikes as a practical alternative to a second car.

 

I've thought about that a great deal, but I can't see it happening, even as a second car alternative. For example, my Prius gets 45mpg on my commuting loop, carries 4 people + luggage or groceries and the baby stroller, and service costs $70 every 5k miles at the dealer. My RT gets 39.8mpg on the same loop, carries me and a passenger and some luggage, or two bags of groceries (no baby stroller), and service costs $300-400 every 6k miles at the dealer. It's just not a practical alternative given the high efficiency and low service costs of some modern cars. It sure is more fun though!

 

-MKL

[Huzband]

Dude, you seriously need a tech day experience. $3-400 bucks at the dealer? No need for that expense.

 

Two bags of groceries on the RT? You need to try harder. I regularly satisfy The Wife with as many as four bags of groceries on the way home, & that's without the top box. I can easily get another three bags in the Givi, & that doesn't even count a few bottles of a good Red.

 

As for your Prius, I won't go there. It'd prolly get me banned anyway.

[dhanson]

I think the dealers charge too much and the bikes are getting more high tech which takes them longer to fix or diagnose.

 

$300 for oil and filter change on the new Duc at 600 mile service and their computer could not communicate with the new ECU even with a DNA rep on the phone for an hour???

 

Now I wonder how long that dealer will be in business?

 

New Toyota Venza, came with 24 months free service (anything that it needs not just oil and filters)!

[John Ranalletta]

IMO, we're leaving the golden age of moto development. Mfgrs will find it more and more difficult to differentiate offerings and those differences are at the periphery of the base riding experience.

 

Is the 2010 GS better than my '02 GS? Sure, it's better, but $15k better (2010 MSRP vs. used 2002 price)? Most of the difference lays in the "new bike smell".

 

As this recession deepens and persists, only the very rich will be able to buy high end Ducs, BMW and HDs. Mfgrs w/o car divisions or solid businesses in non moto lines are likely to succumb to high costs, high prices and low sales. Ex: How many times will MV Augusta be tossed around like a hot potato? How many MVs can be sold in the US?

[essman]

Let gas prices hit $4-$5 a gallon after a Katrina like disaster, or more war in the Mideast and bikes will sell whether it really makes economical sense or not, especially bikes like my F650GS that gets 65mpg. I've seen it before-like when I was buying and selling a few years ago. I don't do much of that now, but it'll be back.

[TestPilot]

Actually, the quote is "...how do you justify $15,000 motorcycles no one needs..."

[moshe_levy]

Dude, you seriously need a tech day experience. $3-400 bucks at the dealer? No need for that expense.

 

I've not only been to tech days, I've hosted them. I'm well aware of how to work on the machine and have published some articles on some procedures. For me, it's a question of time vs. expense, and I choose expense at this point in my life because if I'm lucky enough to have 30 minutes to myself during the week, I'd rather ride it than wrench on it.

 

My main point in comparing the car to the bike is that on a mass scale, people do not work on their own vehicles any more. Enthusaists in here do, sure - the average car driver does not, and even the average motorcyclist does not.

 

The prospect of replacing a car and its $70 service (that's professionally done in about 10-20 minutes) with a bike that has a $300-400 service (or one you can do yourself in what, at least an hour if you know what you're doing and are somewhat thorough?) is not going to be appealing *on a mass scale.* People want more convenience for less money, not less convenience for more money. The fuel economy vs. convenience of an economical car vs. bike is negligable, also. So I don't see the ad campaign of bike taking over for car or even second car going far. I think pretty much everything Lock said made a good deal of sense.

 

-MKL

 

 

[ka5ysy]

... my Prius gets 45mpg on my commuting loop, carries 4 people + luggage or groceries and the baby stroller, and service costs $70 every 5k miles at the dealer.

-MKL

 

Moshe, one of the things that most people with a hybrid vehicle fails to see is that all batteries have a definite number of charge/recharge cycles in them. When they fail, they are very expensive to replace. AFIK the Prius battery is about $6500 before labor to swap from what a dealer tells me. That blows up the "saving" in a hybrid aside from the initial cost bump. The other thing is that hybrids work well only in an urban setting when the battery is the main drive source. On the open road at high speed it is not as efficient as my diesel X5 which gets 30mpg at 70-75mph. Based on some real-world users I know, I tend to think my X5d is still more efficient even in an urban environment because of the way the drivers use them. The ideal hybrid, to me, would be a small diesel engine driving a set of electric motors through a generator like locomotives.

 

Admittedly, motorcycles make little sense unless you do daily drives. I do a lot of running around Baton Rouge on my R1200R when the weather is good, because the parking is much easier at the courthouse. I can park under a large Oak tree outside the front door anytime! It is way more fun, even than the X5d, and since I do most of my own maintenance, the operational costs are not much either. It also gets about 50 mpg to boot !

 

 

Interestingly, we are seeing a lot more scooters around here, and not just because LSU is located just south of the city. A lot of people are discovering 70+mpg while doing short trips is nice.

[Whip]

"Motorcycles are just too much fun. It’s just such a liberation from normal life. You can make all the rational arguments about safety and cost and resale value, but there’s still that voice in the back of your head saying you’ve got to do it."

 

 

..Word

 

[Rinkydink]

Dude, you seriously need a tech day experience. $3-400 bucks at the dealer? No need for that expense.

 

For me, it's a question of time vs. expense, and I choose expense at this point in my life because if I'm lucky enough to have 30 minutes to myself during the week, I'd rather ride it than wrench on it.

 

-MKL

 

 

+1

[notacop]

Johnran,

Don't know the guy, never paid attention to the who's who of industry. Simply a metaphor for those who leave one business for another when the see the flash of dollars somewhere else.

Subtlety is lost so easily....

And the industry of motorcycles? If the market didn't promote the biggest, most flashy, over sized, over powered hunks of metal and plastic available that cost giant dollars to purchase and maintain as the normal way to go, more folks may be enticed to use motorcycles as an alternative to the box and ride to work.

Why not 500's, 650's, 800's as commuters and everyday use. Even the more fuel sipping 250's for the around towners. And at an affordable price.

My 800ST is a good fuel efficient bike but it really isn't worth the cost of a small car. Probably could have been sold at a profit at $7000 if BMW wasn't so intent on huge returns. I'm just a BMW slut and had to have it to sooth my ego and maintain my bragging rights.

[Paul Mihalka]

"Why not 500's, 650's, 800's as commuters and everyday use. Even the more fuel sipping 250's for the around towners. And at an affordable price."

 

Honda has the NT700, a very practical handy lower priced high quality bike. Very popular in Europe. After many years in Europe Honda brought it to the USA. It does not sell well. Couple of month ago I visited my nearest Honda dealer. He had on the floor a brand new '09 NT700 with ABS for $9.500.

[baggerchris]

I thought that almost the whole interview was self serving by someone who has an ax to grind.

 

My HD looks pretty much stock and I get younger guys that come up to my wife and I all the time saying that they wished they had one.

 

Also, Almost NO one really needs a motorcycle of any price. Cars are pretty efficient and motorcycles are pretty much toys. Oh, I guess some of us, (I commute daily on a F650GS) could claim that they are not toys, but I think for most of us they are.

 

Oh, and for the record, I don't have a 401 having my money other places, but my Wife's 401 has earned 9.7% this year. I think that it pretty good considering.

 

Also I thought he was wrong about new product. I see lots of new product coming from both the Asian Countries and Europe with Triumph leading the pack so to speak. I don't know. I didn't like the whole doom and gloom interview which I thought at this point was unwarranted.

[moshe_levy]

Moshe, one of the things that most people with a hybrid vehicle fails to see is that all batteries have a definite number of charge/recharge cycles in them. When they fail, they are very expensive to replace. AFIK the Prius battery is about $6500 before labor to swap from what a dealer tells me. That blows up the "saving" in a hybrid aside from the initial cost bump. The other thing is that hybrids work well only in an urban setting when the battery is the main drive source. On the open road at high speed it is not as efficient as my diesel X5 which gets 30mpg at 70-75mph.

 

Not to hijack the thread, but I'm well aware of the issue of batteries in hybrids. The Prius battery (made by Panasonic) retails for under $2500 (many dealers sell for much less) and there are aftermarket brands available for under $1500 that are just as good. There are almost new ones from wrecks on E-bay for under $1000. So, nowhere near $6500. Also, the original battery is factory warranteed fully for 8 years / 100k miles. Some states like CA extend this, to 10 years and 150k miles. So, by then, I've saved more than enough in gas to justify a battery replacement, and honestly, if something in a car lasts that long, can you really complain about having to replace it?

 

As for a hybrid "price bump," you'll note diesels like yours cost more than their gasoline counterparts, too. I for one will gladly give any excess money in a price bump to a manufacturer for making a more fuel efficient vehicle than to some Saudi shiek so he can add another Bentley to his fleet.

 

Yes, it's more efficient in the city than on the highway, but on pure highway loops (and I set my cruise to 79mph on my 80 mile highway loop when commuting up north) is still hovering at 39-41mpg - more than my RT can manage.

 

I do agree diesels have a place and are efficient, but I don't think you'd seriously want to start comparing the MPGs of an X5, diesel or not, to a little miser like the Prius.

 

Regardless, the original point was simply that bikes are by and large an emotional purchase, at least for us Americans. It would be very, very hard to justify a motorcycle purchase on pure economics alone. Likewise, some of us who buy hybrids are emotional about it as well. I don't look at how long it will take me to "save" the difference in gas savings. I look at the fact that from day 1 it consumes less, and thus enriches our good friends in the Middle East that much less as well. Reason, and emotion, both satisfied.

 

-MKL

[outpost22]

The buying/marketing of bikes has hit a ceiling much like muscle cars did in the early 70's. Back then it took an oil embargo, now, it's a bad economy. Who has the discretionary income to spend $20,000 on a motorcycle? Evidently, not a lot of people based on the MC market results the last 2 years.

 

Manufacturers have always tried to make us think we need MORE power, Bigger this, Faster that. The best lesson I learned on this was racing Enduros and Hare Scrambles in tight woods with trees, rocks, ruts, etc. Guys who wanted to "get faster" bought bigger (read: 500 cc) bikes when the reality was the 125cc bikes would smoke them in these races with similar riders. My buddy and I were riding qualifiers. He had a 125 cc KTM and me on a 250 KTM. He would beat me on his 125 when we practiced. Then we would switch bikes and I would beat him on the same trails. He bought a 350 KTM to ride the "Open" class and got slower.

 

Sometimes we just need to stand back and think "Do I really need such a large bike with so many complicated systems", or do we need bikes that run a long time on easy to service systems and good economy?

 

Now if I was into drag racing, give me the 'Busa or the ZX-14...

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Manufacturers have always tried to make us think we need MORE power, Bigger this, Faster that.

 

Sometimes it's desirable. I'm happy for the boost in power my 1200RT has, compared to my 1100RT - especially when it's loaded with gear, especially when I'm touring at high elevations.

 

Likewise, the K1600LT (with 160 hp) should be interesting to ride, even two-up w/full luggage. Ought to be much more spritely then the 118-horsepower GL1800.

[ryan_a1982]

I got my wife a 2007 50 cc Honda Metro scooter that was cream and red.

 

My XR engine needed to be rebuilt and I couldn't afford it so I rode her scooter to work for a few months. I felt like a fool, being 6' tall and on a little womans scooter that topped out at about 47 mph. At least I was getting 100mph and this was when gas prices in CA were over $4. I sure did get some crap from the guys at work though....So yeah, I wave at guys on scooters, maybe they just can't afford a rebuild on their motorcycle. You never know...

[John Bentall]

Ought to be much more spritely then the 118-horsepower GL1800.

 

The German Magazine Motorrad put almost every motorcycle that comes through their hands on a dyno and measure BHP (well actually German PS) at rear wheel.

2011 Camhead 1200RT - 100PS , Honda GW - 101PS, Connie 1400 - 136PS, FJR1300 - 128PS, Triumph 1050 Sprint GT - 109PS , HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic (1,670cc)- 71PS. Figures from the issue 17th September 2010 - multi-bike test of touring machines.