Bar Stool Economics

[Ohio48]

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100 and If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

 

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.)

 

So, that's what they decided to do.

 

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." so drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

 

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected...They would still drink for free...But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'...They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33...But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

 

And so:

 

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 

Each of the six was better off than before...And the first four continued to drink for free...But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

 

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

 

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

 

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

 

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.

Professor of Economics

University of Georgia

 

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.

For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

[Whip]

[Ohio48]

 

Beer does that to ya.

[Matts_12GS]

I love the analogy though.

[tallman]

Let me see if I got this right.

The government runs a bar and fiscal policy is set by a bartender?

 

 

Who supplies the beer?

[Antimatter]

How Taxes Really Work

 

In the US and throughout most of the rest of the world, the tenth man would have paid off a politician for $10 to get a beer subsidy of $30 per night (to create jobs for the bartender). Of this $30, $10 of course would have covered the lobbying expense, $10 would go in his own pocket, $1 would go to the bartender to keep his mouth shut, and $9 would go to the bar.

 

The Bar would give him a kickback of $10 each night for bringing in his 9 buddies to make them into alcoholics, repeat customers for life.

 

The Bar would then raise their prices to $130 citing inflation and higher taxes.

 

The tenth richest man would then secure his finances in a Dutch Holding Company managed by a trust in Ireland which invests in Chase and Bank of America. He would then explain to his buddies that he is as poor as the rest of them and can’t afford to pay himself as he cries into his beer that night citing his latest financial report which shows him to be broke on paper so that he doesn’t have to pay taxes in the United States ever again. Citing his former generosity, the other nine men would agree that the tenth man can now pay nothing like the 4 poorest.

The others would then be faced with an adjusted amount of

 

• The fifth would pay $3.

• The sixth would pay $10.

• The seventh would pay $22.

• The eighth would pay $38.

• The ninth would pay $57.

 

Now the group would recognize that this is not fair and so would lobby the Government for an Earned Drinking Credit for the poorest men. The government would oblige and give the four poorest men $2 each, but they would tax the 5th - 9th men $2 each as well.

 

• 4 men receive a total of $8 and 5 men pay $10. The adjusted amounts would then look like this for all 10

• First Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0

• Second Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0

• Third Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0

• Fourth Receives $2 pays $2 | Net 0

• Fifth Pay $1 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $3

• Sixth Pay $8 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $10

• Seventh Pay $20 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $22

• Eighth Pay $36 to bar pays $2 to tax | net paid $38

• Ninth Pay $55 to bar; pays $2 to tax | net paid $57

• Tenth Man: Tax Credit Received: $30 ; Pays $10 to politician; $1 to bartender; Receives $10 from Bar; Net RECEIVED $29 per night and free beer.

 

Of course this can not go on forever as the sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth men can’t afford to pay those rates forever. So they start paying with their credit cards held by Bank of America and Chase.

 

The tenth man would start demanding a higher Return on Investment from his investment managers, who would be hearing similar requests from all of their other investors. They would then expand their holdings into mortgaged back securities where a good deal more profit could be made.

 

Meanwhile the Fifth through ninth men are racking up debt on their credit cards from drinking every night, their health care costs are increasing as their liver fails, and they are also spending more on gasoline as they drink and drive as they can no longer afford to cab it. Ultimately, they end up refinancing their credit cards into their house where they have equity. The mortgage broker promises them a 4.9% interest rate on the refinance which sounds good as their credit card interest rate is up to 21%. The broker promises them that they will not have to verify their income, provide W2’s nor copies of their tax paper work. Their mortgage broker doesn’t tell them, but lies about the value of their house in order to refinance their credit and help them avoid paying private mortgage insurance. At their current income levels, and without verifying their income, their mortgage would be classified as Sub Prime and the interest rate would be 10.9%

The mortgage officer lies about their income levels as well to boost the internal credit scoring mechanism and get them financed, not at 4.9% but 5.9%, which is better than 10.9% and happens to pay the mortgage broker a higher commission than a loan at 4.9% that is not sub prime.

 

The mortgage broker also promises them a payment of $900 per month, but fails to mention the balloon payment of $50,000 in the 5th year and doesn’t mention the adjustable rates in year 3.

The men separately show up with a hangover and sun glasses on the date of their close for their new mortgages. They trust their broker and do not read the paperwork in detail flipping and signing almost as fast as they could raise a beer bottle to their lips.

 

The loan closes, the mortgage broker gets a fat commission, the bank securitizes the mortgages by selling them to an Irish Hedge Fund and pockets collectively a billion dollars in profits that year.

 

The hedge fund holds the investment for a year, shows a 35% gain on paper and starts selling shares to retirement funds and 401ks in the US that the Sixth through 9th men just happen to have the rest of their life savings sitting in.

 

The tenth man sees the writing on the wall, literally magic marker on a stall in the restroom of the bar.

 

“The end is nigh”

 

He pulls his money out of the Irish Hedge fund invested in real estate and invests in Gold at $600 a troy ounce. Meanwhile, he lobbies congress to tighten bankruptcy laws for credit cards which he still has a sizable investment in. Congress tightens bankruptcy laws and makes it impossible to absolve credit card debt, forcing people into chapter 13 where they must pay off the debt within 3 years or go to debtor’s prison where they can work it off in 7 years.

 

Gas prices are still going up so the President ignores a minor terrorist threat, allows the terrorists to blow up a major building and then goes to war with the terrorist’s home country where there is no oil, and simultaneously with a country that sits on 10% of the world’s oil reserves that has a decimated military infrastructure.

 

Oil prices shoot through the roof with Gold following close behind. The President whose family comes from oil barons make a fortune and become famous at their skull and bones country club outside of Yale.

 

Meanwhile our famous 10 guys, start paying even more money at the pump. The first 4 guys end up taking second jobs working at Wal-Mart and have to give up drinking at the bar so that they can try and beat their teenage kids out of a promotion.

 

The fifth and sixth guys get foreclosed upon. They were forced to stop paying their mortgage payments so that they could pay their mandatory credit card payments as required by the new bankruptcy law.

 

The seventh, eighth and ninth men all previously traded up their homes for McMansions that they can not afford with interest only payments of $2300 a month. When foreclosures start happening their plans on flipping their McMansions and cashing in on the equity slips through their fingers.

 

To make matters worse seven and eight get laid off from the companies they work for when their jobs get outsourced to China.

 

The ninth man keeps his job at a law firm, but fails to notice that his 401k fund is slipping and has lost 10% in the last year. Things are looking up as his law firm seems on the edge of landing a big contract with Merrill Lynch.

 

Then the real estate crash and sub prime mortgage scandal erupt. Banks start dropping like flies to be saved not by the cash strapped government that can barely afford the war for oil any longer, but by China. Oil and Gold soar, Gold hits $900 a troy ounce and Oil hits $130 a barrel (about the same amount for 10 rounds of beer prior to the crash). Beer prices hold steady for the first few months, but then start to edge up as gas prices for delivery creep into the bar owners expenses.

 

Then the first four men one night remember their favorite bar.

They sneak around back around 4:30 am and steal 50 empty kegs that just happen to be made of pure aluminum. Those kegs are now worth about half the value of a keg that is full in scrap metal prices or about $80. They are not stupid and don’t want to get caught turning the kegs in at the dump where the police are already looking for keg thieves. So they head out to the closed down manufacturing plant where they used to work. They start a big fire, and melt down the aluminum into big messy aluminum splashes on the cement. They turn in the aluminum for cash and get caught up on their back alimony and child support before heading back to work at Wal-mart where they now work for their teen age kids that beat them out for that promotion earlier in the month because their job skills weren’t as good as recent high school graduates. They then begin dreaming of new ways to find aluminum alimony allowances.

 

Meanwhile, the banks and mortgage companies lobby congress spending about $10,000 a head in an election year to bail out the economy. Congress provides the major banks with government backed loans to refinance the bad sub prime loans so that the government can personally guarantee those bad loans. They also put $100 billion of actual cash into the hands of Americans hoping to stimulate the economy.

 

Americans however, are all in debt up to their eye balls and use the extra $1200 they receive to make 2-3 credit card payments. They take the $300 for each kid and buy groceries for the month and then they start worrying about next month.

 

The banks get away free as they have Chinese financing now and no bad loans as they have refinanced them over to the US Government. The US government had to print more money to pay for all of these actions and so Gold goes up to $1500 a troy ounce.

 

The tenth man is now worth Billions and moves to Costa Rica to retire taking the new trophy wife that used to be the bartenders girl friend with him.

 

The first four men end up going to county prison for 3 months for stealing aluminum dog crap receptacles after running out of kegs to steal.

 

The fifth and sixth men end up living in an apartment and then homeless after they lose their jobs at Wal-Mart.

 

The seventh and eighth men whom we previously left hanging in our story after they lost their jobs and ability to pay for their homes, end up losing their homes, and their kids. They and their spouses are each convicted of mortgage fraud by the FBI in a major sting operation after it is revealed that they lied on their mortgage applications. Their mortgage brokers who actually did the paper work cop a plea agreement in exchange for immunity with the Feds and rat out each of their unsuspecting customers.

 

The ninth man ends up losing his entire retirement fund which took a big hit as the dollar rapidly plummeted into free fall. He ends up refinancing his own house under a government backed loan for $650,000. Unfortunately, a tornado comes through that winter in a freak coincidence and levels the home. FEMA promises to provide assistance but never shows up and the ninth man freezes to death attempting to salvage the shreds of his belongings. His home insurance policy refuses to pay as they claim that his house was over valued and then they prove it with comparables studies from his own mortgage broker’s database.

 

The tenth man ends up dumping his new bride a year later, moving back to the states a year after that when the US appears to have hit rock bottom and he leads up a Chinese real estate investment initiative in the states. He makes another $10 billion in ten years, but is then executed in Beijing for espionage.

 

Meanwhile, the bar tender goes on to win American Idol and sleep with Paula Abdul. They are now blissfully happy, doped up on anti-psychotics, and the biggest two idiots the world has ever seen.

[Mike]

While those guys are drinking beer and worrying about taking advantage of one another, I'm going to go for a ride on my moto. When I get back, my 78-year-old neighbor, Jimmy, is going to come out and offer me a Bud Light. I'll accept, because, while it's not my favorite beer, I'd rather be riding or in the company of those who aren't all constipated about who's getting ahead of whom.

[pbharvey]

Blah, blah, blah.....

 

Meanwhile, the bar tender goes on to win American Idol and sleep with Paula Abdul.

 

I find the notion of sleeping with Paula Abdul utterly repulsive. The rest I largely agree with.

Carry on.

 

 

One more thing, it seems to me we were all better off when you ate what you killed or planted and if that didn't work out so good a relative, neighbor, or church helped you out and you returned the favor to the best of your ability. Its sad that our society is now so far removed from that.

[elkroeger]

Sounds to me like beating up that #10 man is the solution. Somebody needs a beat-down.

 

By the way - antimatter - very well said, except for that Paula Abdul thing. Eeeew!

[Antimatter]

Sounds to me like beating up that #10 man is the solution. Somebody needs a beat-down.

 

By the way - antimatter - very well said, except for that Paula Abdul thing. Eeeew!

 

I can't take credit for it. I found it out on the web in response to the first post a couple of years ago and thought it was funny.

[Quinn]

Were they drinking imported beer?

 

----

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Let me see if I got this right.

The government runs a bar and fiscal policy is set by a bartender?

 

 

Who supplies the beer?

 

 

Ohhhh, would that it were so!

 

Pilgrim

[DavidEBSmith]

Not only was this not written by Dr. David R. Kamerschen, it's stupid and simplistic. If the bartender lowered the bill to $0, then everybody would drink for free, right? No, wait, the bill is taxes, so the beer must be government services, so if they reduce the bar bill, don't they have to reduce the amount of beer they get? Otherwise they'll run up the bar bill deficit? If they're real libertarians, wouldn't they would want the bill to be $0 so the bartender wouldn't bring them any beer and they would be free to go out and make their own beer without the coercion of having to pay for it ?

 

We've been told since the income tax was enacted in 1913 that it would make all the rich people run away, and not only do they stay, people come here from other countries so they can make money and get taxed on it.

 

 

[BluegrassPicker]

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.

 

In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

Good,. He was a prick anyways..

[Whip]

Not only was this not written by Dr. David R. Kamerschen, it's stupid and simplistic. If the bartender lowered the bill to $0, then everybody would drink for free, right? No, wait, the bill is taxes, so the beer must be government services, so if they reduce the bar bill, don't they have to reduce the amount of beer they get? Otherwise they'll run up the bar bill deficit? If they're real libertarians, wouldn't they would want the bill to be $0 so the bartender wouldn't bring them any beer and they would be free to go out and make their own beer without the coercion of having to pay for it ?

 

We've been told since the income tax was enacted in 1913 that it would make all the rich people run away, and not only do they stay, people come here from other countries so they can make money and get taxed on it.

 

 

 

 

You should work for the government.

 

 

[Dennis Andress]

We've been told since the income tax was enacted in 1913 that it would make all the rich people run away, and not only do they stay, people come here from other countries so they can make money and get taxed on it.

 

 

Then would you please send some to California? All our rich people ran out of money, and our government can't operate without them.

[Twisties]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly. The wealth of #10 depends in part on the infrastructure that government has provided to move his supplies, goods, and services around. Those taxes provide him a source of educated and skilled labor. They provide a well regulated (in general, current situation aside) banking system with which manage his transactions and funds. They provide for a level playing field in a well regulated market in most areas of enterprise.

 

In other words, those taxes provide the necessary pre-conditions for the creation of wealth.

[Paul Mihalka]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly. The wealth of #10 depends in part on the infrastructure that government has provided to move his supplies, goods, and services around. Those taxes provide him a source of educated and skilled labor. They provide a well regulated (in general, current situation aside) banking system with which manage his transactions and funds. They provide for a level playing field in a well regulated market in most areas of enterprise.

 

In other words, those taxes provide the necessary pre-conditions for the creation of wealth.

 

It is wonderful to see a statement on taxes I can agree with!

[Husker Red]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly.

 

D'oh!!! Agree to disagree.

 

 

[Twisties]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly. The wealth of #10 depends in part on the infrastructure that government has provided to move his supplies, goods, and services around. Those taxes provide him a source of educated and skilled labor. They provide a well regulated (in general, current situation aside) banking system with which manage his transactions and funds. They provide for a level playing field in a well regulated market in most areas of enterprise.

 

In other words, those taxes provide the necessary pre-conditions for the creation of wealth.

 

It is wonderful to see a statement on taxes I can agree with!

 

Well, since I am on a roll, let me mention also security (in the military sense, as well as basic police services), access to a system of justice and contracts enforcement (courts), and a well founded business law.

[Whip]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly.

 

What planet have you been living on?

 

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly.

 

 

LOL!!!!

 

Oh yeah...govt spending has always been studied as a great example of how to get the best bang for your buck and make sure your money is put to good use rather than squandered on someone's pet project that benefits few at the expense of all.

[Twisties]

The analogy equates to taxes to beer. We all understand that it is intended as a simple analogy to make a simple point, but it is important to recognize the shortcomings of such illustrations.

 

I merely point out that purchase of beer is an act of consumption, perhaps pleasurable, or evil itself depending on your pov. This act does little towards providing the pre-conditions necessary to the creation of wealth, and in the analogy #10 gets no benefit in excess of that reaped by #1 for his larger payment. While in reality the taxes #10 pays do in fact disproportionately benefit #10 in a number of ways.

 

The question as to whether these benefits might be more efficiently provided by your company that has you endlessly sitting in meetings you find useless and complain about incessantly, is an entirely different matter, and off topic. I am talking about a weakness in the model created by analogy.

[Scribner]

I like brewing my own beer!!

[Whip]

I like brewing my own beer!!

 

Do ya share????

[philbytx]

Hey Whip!

Given the current state of the economy, he may not share it but would prolly barter one of his pints for a couple of T-shirts

[sgendler]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly.

 

What planet have you been living on?

 

 

 

 

I live on a planet in which I received a subsidized education, drive on roads free of tolls, use communication infrastructure invented via govt funded research, make my living using the same infrastructure, which is protected from evildoers by a military paid for with tax dollars, where my personal safety is greatly enhanced by public servants who police the streets and respond to emergencies, where businesses are regulated so that I may engage in trade with greatly reduce fear of fraud and where I'll have some form of legal recourse should that regulation fail, etc.

 

What planet are you living on?

[Whip]

It is important to remember that taxes, unlike beer, are not spent uselessly.

 

What planet have you been living on?

 

 

 

 

 

I live on a planet in which I received a subsidized education, drive on roads free of tolls, use communication infrastructure invented via govt funded research, make my living using the same infrastructure, which is protected from evildoers by a military paid for with tax dollars, where my personal safety is greatly enhanced by public servants who police the streets and respond to emergencies, where businesses are regulated so that I may engage in trade with greatly reduce fear of fraud and where I'll have some form of legal recourse should that regulation fail, etc.

 

What planet are you living on?

 

 

 

I live in the real world....

 

Too many links so I did the Googling for ya.

 

 

BTW... John Stossel has a bet for you.

 

 

Good Luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scribner]

I do share, for the price of good converstion. I also love to barter, makes more sense than using money and its more fun!!

[DavidEBSmith]

BTW... John Stossel has a bet for you.

 

Fire department.

 

Stossel owes me $1000.

[Calvin (no socks)]

The real winner is the 11th fellow...... as an Entreprenuer....He had the only key to the bathroom! A cash business with no records.....

 

With all the cash he purchased another bar in his sisters name... he drank mixed drinks for free.

[Antimatter]

BTW... John Stossel has a bet for you.

 

Fire department.

 

Stossel owes me $1000.

 

I was going to say the military. Stoseel better pony up his check book. His roads example was nicely written, but completely disregarded the role public transportation plays in stuff like toll roads and congestion charging. It's easy to do a big privatization when you have the government backing you up.

[Whip]

BTW... John Stossel has a bet for you.

 

Fire department.

 

Stossel owes me $1000.

 

I was going to say the military. Stoseel better pony up his check book. His roads example was nicely written, but completely disregarded the role public transportation plays in stuff like toll roads and congestion charging. It's easy to do a big privatization when you have the government backing you up.

 

 

You guys make your case to the man and I'll match whatever you get from him.

 

$$$$$$

 

Good Luck

[DavidEBSmith]

Yeah, military.

 

Libraries.

 

National Parks.

 

Regional waste water treatment systems.

 

Cleaner air and water (private enterprise wasn't particularly interested in cleaning up after themselves pre-EPA).

 

Safer automobiles.

 

Preventing child labor.

 

Clearing roads after it snows.

 

Parking meters.

 

 

Notice that in his website he doesn't say "nobody has proven me wrong", he just says "I am yet to pay". As in, "and no matter what you show me, I won't".

 

I wouldn't even waste my time sending anything to him, Larry. A true believer can never admit he's wrong.

 

 

[Whip]

David

 

It sure is nice having you back.

 

I missed ya.

 

[Twisties]

I just thought it was too utterly stupid to even reply to. Stossel has become a comedian, and a bad one at that. What an idiot.

[ratfink]

No matter what, they all share the same barroom. If one of them suffers TB cuz he can't afford healthcare, they will all be at risk of infection. If one of them is mentally ill cuz of whatever, he might waste them all. We all have to share the world (and the roads) with people of all stripes. It is to our advantage that they are healthy, educated and occupied at a vocation that fits their abilities and compensates them fairly.

[Whip]

A true believer can never admit he's wrong.

 

Kettle...pot.

 

[Whip]

I just thought it was too utterly stupid to even reply to. Stossel has become a comedian, and a bad one at that. What an idiot.

 

Calling people idiots ads so much to the conversation.

 

 

You really shouldn't get involved in these discussions, I don't want you to get "aggravated".

 

 

Does this mean none of ya are gonna take the bet?

 

 

??????????????????????????????

 

 

 

 

 

[Lawman]

It's absurd to think gov't can outperform private enterprise..It's not a level playing field.

 

http://govleaders.org/matrix.htm

 

Government doesn't do what it does because it can do it better..It does what it does because it can..

[Antimatter]

A true believer can never admit he's wrong.

 

Kettle...pot.

 

 

Er, I don't think either of us is saying private enterprise doesn't do some things better. When it comes to widget-type production where you compete on price, the free market is usually better at allocating the resources, as long as there's a strong central government to prevent abuses as a way of cost cutting.

 

Stossel is saying there are no exceptions to his rule; that private enterprise will always do a better job. That's a big difference from the position I'm taking.

[DavidEBSmith]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

 

[Lawman]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml

 

 

That's true..Only the government can sieze my private property. When an individual does that he is arrested.

 

 

[Antimatter]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml

 

 

That's true..Only the government can sieze my private property. When an individual does that he is arrested.

 

 

Where do big banks fall in that spectrum? All the abuses of the big banks with mortgage foreclosures would indicate that large corporations and wealthy individuals often do what they want.

[Lawman]

 

Where do big banks fall in that spectrum? All the abuses of the big banks with mortgage foreclosures would indicate that large corporations and wealthy individuals often do what they want.

 

Excellent point..Although I've not heard of a single reposession that took place where the mortgage was current I have heard of the government taking action against those lenders that were trying to take posession of their property. OTOH the government can take my land and convert it to someone else for their private use..Gov't is very efficient at taking from those who have to give to those who have not..Private enterprise is limited by laws. Gov't is not.

[DavidEBSmith]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml

 

 

That's true..Only the government can sieze my private property. When an individual does that he is arrested.

 

 

 

This is Government Derangement Syndrome at its finest. "Only the government can seize my private property" : No, any thug with more guns than you can seize your private property. It would be the government that creates an armed police force to lessen the amount of property-seizing going on, and imprisons people who seize other peoples' property, and it would be the government that establishes a legal system that provides you with a mechanism for redressing property seizures and for enforcing your rights to your private property, so you don't have to sit around your house with a gun all day guarding your stuff.

 

As far as eminent domain, it's actually written into the Constitution - that document that some people seem to think is holy writ - that your property be seized IF the government compensates you, and the government establishes many processes for setting that compensation, and if you don't like that the government can do that, you can start a popular movement and get a majority consensus and eliminate that provision from the law. But you wouldn't be saying that the Constitution is wrong, would you? A lot of people these days are clamoring for strict faithfulness to the Constitution, but eminent domain is actually in there, and the Founders intended it to be.

 

And "When an individual does that he is arrested". Well, when you eliminate the government, that won't happen, will it? Perhaps you could create citizens' posses to arrest wrongdoers. And citizens' jails to lock them up. Crap, it's sounding like government all over again.

 

Everybody who whines about the government does it against the implicit background of actually having a government that makes their lives pretty uneventful on a day-to-day basis. When you start going down the list of government programs to eliminate, and start actually thinking about the consequences of eliminating them, you find that most people really don't want to eliminate enough of them to make a difference. Cops? No. Firemen? No. Military? No. Social Security? Keep the government's hands off my Social Security! Medicaid? Keep the government out of my Medicaid! Garbage pickup? No. Sewers? No. Highways? Dammit, the roads are in terrible shape, we need them fixed! Earmarks and pork? Well, not the ones that benefit me.

 

And property law? I know y'all down in Texas think you can defend your stuff quite well without outside help, but remember what happened at the Alamo without outside help.

[Boffin]

If you wish to see what a country with no effective government and an armed population looks like - take a look at Somalia.

 

Andy

[Lawman]

David,

I probably do suffer from "Government Derangement Syndrome" right along with the other 4 dissenting Supreme Court Justices that in 2005 were opposed to the seizing of private land from one individual and giving it to another..

[Whip]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

 

Obviouly you never read nor listened to any of what Stossel has said or you never would have made such a statement.

 

 

[Twisties]

Another thing government does better than private enterprise: establish an enforceable, accessible system of property rights that allows private enterprise to flourish.

 

I realize people like Stossel are nostalgic for the good old days when dukes and lords kept private armies to protect their castles and their piles of gold . . .

 

 

 

Obviouly you never read nor listened to any of what Stossel has said or you never would have made such a statement.

 

 

I read what he said Larry. I found his statements to be idiotic, and based on outright lies. He lives in a dream where the rules of logic and fact are not applicable.