Anti-Bully Law

[yabadabapal]

A senator from the great state of New Jersey has proposed an anti bully law as a response to the recent suicide of a Rutgers University student. There are more than just a few incidents of Social Networking bullying that have resulted in suicide. Since the internet is in theory becoming our main form of communication somewhat, almost like telephone conversation that 500 million people can listen to, it may in deed be time to take a look at some of the consequences. So I thought I would bring this up at BMWST because I always enjoy the intelligent and sometimes funny input here. What do you think would be some of the concepts and actual laws that might be created to tackle this issue that is inevitably going to get even bigger over time as the internet replaces our more commonly used and more private types of communication such as the phone or in person.

[AZKomet]

Another useless law when one is already in place. It is called "Threatening and Intimidating" No need for another.......A senator who wwants to waste more time and $$$ for a law that will have their name associated with it.

[Mike]

If you learn about a bully, just get a bunch of people together and threaten to beat him up.

[russell_bynum]

If you learn about a bully, just get a bunch of people together and threaten to beat him up.

 

My experience (as a skinny band geek) was that it doesn't take a bunch of people, but it does take more than threats.

 

Of course, these days you can't do that stuff. (or...at least...you can't get caught doing it)

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

A senator from the great state of New Jersey has proposed an anti bully law as a response to the recent suicide of a Rutgers University student.

 

:confused: The perps in this case are already up on charges. Why do we need another law?

[Mike]

If you learn about a bully, just get a bunch of people together and threaten to beat him up.

 

My experience (as a skinny band geek) was that it doesn't take a bunch of people, but it does take more than threats.

 

Of course, these days you can't do that stuff. (or...at least...you can't get caught doing it)

 

Yes, this reminds me of one of my great parenting moments. My son, Alex, was getting pushed around by a little creep when he was in second grade. I went through an "escalation of force" discussion (What can I say; I'm a retired military officer. ). It went something like this:

 

"First, tell him to stop. Second, if he doesn't stop and he touches you, grab his hand and tell him, again, to stop. Third, if he keeps it up, punch him in the face as hard as you can. This is how you make a fist."

 

Well, it got to step three. He punched the little creep. We got a call from school. I told them he was following dad's advice. My wife was pissed. The little creep never messed with him again.

[Mike]

A senator from the great state of New Jersey has proposed an anti bully law as a response to the recent suicide of a Rutgers University student.

 

:confused: The perps in this case are already up on charges. Why do we need another law?

 

Occasionally--and this has happened with the adoption of new technology--it is necessary to change existing laws or enact new ones to criminalize behavior that lies outside the reach of existing statutes. Generally, these proposals are nothing more than political grandstanding. I haven't seen the specifics of this legislation, but since the prosecutors have established probable cause to bring charges under existing statutes, there's likely no real need to enact new laws.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

"First, tell him to stop. Second, if he doesn't stop and he touches you, grab his hand and tell him, again, to stop. Third, if he keeps it up, punch him in the face as hard as you can. This is how you make a fist."

 

That's pretty much the talk I got in seventh or eighth grade, although with fewer discrete steps. I ended up punching six different kids in the face, one of them on two separate occasions. In turn I got punched by one professional-grade miscreant who was aware of my reputation: he had cornered me and was spitting on me, and when I wound up to swing, he literally beat me to the punch. But for the most part, the bullying faded. I'm not sure if it was my reputation for violent self-defense, or just the natural arrival of civility as kids got older and matured a bit, but I didn't encounter much trouble my freshman year of high school, and none at all after that.

 

[Ken H.]

I think we have to put this in perspective. The Tyler Clementi case goes well beyond what we might normally define as schoolyard bullying that, at least to some extent, was a normal part of growing up in most of us here’s demographic. I won’t repeat the details, they’re easy to find. There has been five high profile suicides recently (one of which was in Canada that revolved around FaceBook bullying and harasment) with a similar common theme.

 

I think we have to recognize that the level of violence that is associated with bullying these days goes far beyond the punch in the shoulder, shoved into a locker, cat-calling, etc. that was common in our day in Jr. High School or wherever. The escalating violence associated with higher education hazing is a similar issue.

 

We need to get a message across to young people that this type of behavior is not just innocent fun - it is hugely damaging, and affecting people’s lives, often permanently. The columnist Dan Savage’s current, "It Gets Better" project is a part of it, school education campaigns to increase awareness are a part of it, and too are stricter laws against it.

 

[pbbeck]

"First, tell him to stop. Second, if he doesn't stop and he touches you, grab his hand and tell him, again, to stop. Third, if he keeps it up, punch him in the face as hard as you can. This is how you make a fist."

... I wound up to swing, he literally beat me to the punch...

 

Teach kids krav maga. With this close combat technique, you are trained to deliver explosively damaging strikes without winding up. The attacker never sees it coming.

[John Ranalletta]

"First, tell him to stop. Second, if he doesn't stop and he touches you, grab his hand and tell him, again, to stop. Third, if he keeps it up, punch him in the face as hard as you can. This is how you make a fist."

At a gut level, I agree. In reality, this is can be a hit 'n miss strategy. Some kids (people) can never force themselve to strike out at someone else. Telling them it is the right thing to do can often exaccerbate the problem, because not only does the the kid continue to be bullied but has the added burden of inadequacy because s/he cannot meet the parent's expectations. Sometimes, a parent has to get involved to protect the kid.

 

Though I cannot find it now, I've read that fewer than 20% of all infantry men cannot bring themselves to initiate or return fire when under attack or when advancing toward an enemy. Many people are not hard wired to attack another. Often, it's perceived as cowardice, but it isn't.

[ragtoplvr]

The problem with making a new law is the problem of unintended consequences. If there is any defect in how the law was written, which is common, and inventive lawyers eager for their clients bucks get involved, or a prosecutor grandstanding for re-election, it can be bad. Case in point, the kid who now has to register as a sex offender for mooning.

 

Rod

[Ken H.]

Teach kids krav maga. With this close combat technique, you are trained to deliver explosively damaging strikes without winding up. The attacker never sees it coming.

Yeah, more violence is always the answer for everything.

 

Not.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Some kids (people) can never force themselve to strike out at someone else. Telling them it is the right thing to do can often exaccerbate the problem, because not only does the the kid continue to be bullied but has the added burden of inadequacy because s/he cannot meet the parent's expectations. Sometimes, a parent has to get involved to protect the kid.

 

I have to admit that for me, fighting back was a traumatic event each time it occurred: even if the bullying itself was not exactly excruciating, the act of dragging myself into a mindset where I was able to punch someone in the face left me overwhelmed and in tears when it was all over.

 

I would like to think that adults who are incapable of administering violence when it's called for are the way they are because of their experiences growing up, and that this is one of those things that can be taught to a kid as he's growing up, analogous to teaching him to vocally assert his interests when he's not being treated fairly during a business transaction - but I don't know that for a fact.

 

Though I cannot find it now, I've read that fewer than 20% of all infantry men cannot bring themselves to initiate or return fire when under attack or when advancing toward an enemy. Many people are not hard wired to attack another. Often, it's perceived as cowardice, but it isn't.

 

I saw a squad-car video some time ago of a cop who was being shot at by someone he had just pulled over. The officer had his gun in hand, but somehow could not bring himself to shoot at this guy, even though was he was being shot at repeatedly; the officer kept yelling at him to stop, and issuing empty threats. The perp finally scored a disabling hit on the officer, and then walked over and shot him to death.

 

If you can't administer deadly force even when your own life is under direct/immediate threat, then I'd agree, there's something other than cowardice going in.

[tallman]

Schools have bullying and harrassment policies in effect that require investigations and documentation.

This is an outgrowth of electronic postings which are causing many people problems today.

No longer a case of "he said. he said".

Mitch,

You would now be one of my students.

The issue needs to be addressed when it happens, but, it may not require new legislative action.

[John Ranalletta]

Courage can only be measured retrospectively and not predicted. One is adjudged to be courageous or cowardly by one's behaviors.

 

A natural tendency toward assertiveness or aggression does NOT imply courage. A soldier who cannot bring himself to fire at an enemy even when he himself is under fire might be the first soldier to cover a grenade with his own body to protect fellow soldiers. Soldiers are often quoted as saying, "I'm not fighting for my country. I'm fighting for the other guy in my foxhole." This is helpful in understanding the importance of building unit cohesion.

 

Before my kids were born, I umpired Little League. Countless times I saw kids who just wanted to be with their friends and have fun as a team get their brows beat by asshole parents who berated them for not fighting hard enough, not wanting to win and being afraid. In a couple of cases, I stopped games until those parents stopped or left. As a parent, I could fall prey to that assine behavior as well.

[beemerman2k]

Where I agree with Ken on this is the fact that the Internet is adding a whole new dimension to this "bullying" issue. I don't know what we can do about that nor am I aware of what current laws can do to address this issue as well.

 

So what if one teen (or college student in this case) posts something about another that can damage the subject's reputation or even endanger their lives. And so what if the law offers remedies against the perpetrator in such cases. The damage has already been done! The world now knows (and sees) that person X is gay or person Y is seeing someone or that person Z is a , and no amount of consequences against the perp is going to remedy the now public secret or now public picture or now public video or... And once public, it is public for life -- regardless of what laws were broken to put the damaging information out there.

 

This is far more significant than school yard bullying.

[Mike]

Teach kids krav maga. With this close combat technique, you are trained to deliver explosively damaging strikes without winding up. The attacker never sees it coming.

Yeah, more violence is always the answer for everything.

 

Not.

 

But, it sure can be satisfying.

 

I wouldn't advocate it as a first, or desirable, response. However, faced with violence, it's sometimes the only viable option. I'd have preferred that my kid not have punched the bully, but increasing harassment was met with no response from his school.

 

I sympathize with school administrators. As you note, they're now faced with an environment where extreme harassment, and sometimes violence that could be lethal, is not unheard of. It puts them in an unenviable position.

[Ken H.]

It’s not just exposing someone for who they are (in this particular case sexual orientation), it’s the denigration of who they are that’s doing the damage. “Outing” someone is one thing. Creating an environment where someone is harassed to the point that they’re so distraught over who they are that they feel they have no way out but to kill themselves; is quite another. While the Clementi case revolved around sexual orientation, what specific difference someone is being severely bullied about is not the point. Be it weight, height, looks, awkwardness, whatever.

 

Laws are meant to act as a deterrent from doing something. Not just as an after the fact (“the damage has already been done”) punishment.

 

We CAN do something about it. There are lots of things we used to never think were harmful (e.g. smoking) but now we know are. Education about the harm of bullying for one thing. Deterrents (e.g. laws) from doing so is another.

 

[yabadabapal]

My thinking is that as the online social networking becomes the primary source of communication or interaction between people, there is a certain responsibility that comes with it. This responsibility and the consequences of not being responsible require a maturity that perhaps alot of young people are not able to grasp. But nevertheless, the results of propaganda mis-information can be devastating for someone who is young and depends on this online social network for their relationships and estimations of self worth in the community. As many of you have pointed out, we do have more than enough laws already. So with that in mind, I think at least we need to have the education system develop and put in place a required course for grade school students on the responsibility and effects of online social networking.

[russell_bynum]

But nevertheless, the results of propaganda mis-information can be devastating for someone who is young and depends on this online social network for their relationships and estimations of self worth in the community

 

If you're in that situation, you're screwed no matter what.

[John Ranalletta]

At a time when junior high kids have been taught that oral sex isn't really sex and it's kinda' ok to have a [censored] buddy, when sexting is ubiquitous, how do you impress upon them that posting vids of someone having sex is verboten?

[KDeline]

Teach kids krav maga. With this close combat technique, you are trained to deliver explosively damaging strikes without winding up. The attacker never sees it coming.

Yeah, more violence is always the answer for everything.

 

Not.

 

 

Ken,

I hit you every day for no reason. Nothing anybody will or can do will stop me from this. What are you going to do?

 

Leaving out a lot of details this was my life for the first month my freshman year in high school, (with much bullying all the previous years), I finally hit back and continued to hit for the next 5 minutes till his buddys pulled me off. I was never touched again, and he and his buddys never really looked my way again. Since then I have never been in a fight but the few times that came close I never backed down. Sometimes you just have to fight back.

[Lets_Play_Two]

If you learn about a bully, just get a bunch of people together and threaten to beat him up.

 

My experience (as a skinny band geek) was that it doesn't take a bunch of people, but it does take more than threats.

 

Of course, these days you can't do that stuff. (or...at least...you can't get caught doing it)

 

Yes, this reminds me of one of my great parenting moments. My son, Alex, was getting pushed around by a little creep when he was in second grade. I went through an "escalation of force" discussion (What can I say; I'm a retired military officer. ). It went something like this:

 

"First, tell him to stop. Second, if he doesn't stop and he touches you, grab his hand and tell him, again, to stop. Third, if he keeps it up, punch him in the face as hard as you can. This is how you make a fist."

 

Well, it got to step three. He punched the little creep. We got a call from school. I told them he was following dad's advice. My wife was pissed. The little creep never messed with him again.

 

The instructions I got from my father were to never push and shove. If the bully shoves you, hit him as hard as you can in the nose.

[Quinn]

Most of us remember being bullied, but does anyone remember being a bully? Have you gone to a reunion and confronted a former bully and had them admit that they were? I have a feeling that all the bullies from high school evaporated just like all the Natzis after World War II.

 

---

 

 

[ghaverkamp]

Most of us remember being bullied, but does anyone remember being a bully? Have you gone to a reunion and confronted a former bully and had them admit that they were? I have a feeling that all the bullies from high school evaporated just like all the Natzis after World War II.

 

I've got to admit, I can't even remember there being bullies in high school. I keep reading about them; they seem so pervasive, I don't see how we couldn't have had them. Of course, bullying takes many forms, most of which seems to be psychological. Frankly, the easiest way around that sort of thing is simply to pay it no mind.

[tallman]

Bill,

Not a personal rejoinder, just a comment that if the educated, erudite, informed, good parents on this board still give that advice, in today's school culture, then they must be willing to accept the outcome.

In most, if not all school settings, both students would get sanctions.

In some cases the one who throws the first punch might end up getting placed in a second chance school.

A serious price to pay.

The appropriate response today is to inform those in charge of the negative environment the student is experiencing and an investigation should ensue.

The consequences for bullying/harrassment can be just as dramatic as for fighting.

 

Back in the day, more fights were settled off campus and often ended the negative environment from happening again. Some teasing might follow, but the stand up face to face process took care of most issues.

Now, on campus, on-going, potential weapons, potential gang involvement, are more likely to happen. It is a different world.

Did you have a School Resource Officer when you went to high school/jr high?

Most likely you didn't.

Did you go through metal detectors?

Didn't think so.

IMO, telling a child to hit another student on campus will more likely than not result in complications beyond what we saw in the old days.

Best wishes.

[KDeline]

Tim, does telling someone really work? I think it would get worse for the person being picked on. Again this was in my day.

[tallman]

Ken,

Sometimes.

The problem isn't if this process will work, which it doesn't always do, the problem is what happens when fighting takes place.

One punch is a fight.

Any effort to protect yourself and you are involved in the fight.

Some manage to differentitate between the instigator and the"victim" defending, but not always.

So, avoidance is a coping skill that can work.

Even fights off campus can have consequences.

W/out specifics, we've got 3 going to programs for an off campus incident.

[Lets_Play_Two]

Bill,

Not a personal rejoinder, just a comment that if the educated, erudite, informed, good parents on this board still give that advice, in today's school culture, then they must be willing to accept the outcome.

In most, if not all school settings, both students would get sanctions.

In some cases the one who throws the first punch might end up getting placed in a second chance school.

A serious price to pay.

The appropriate response today is to inform those in charge of the negative environment the student is experiencing and an investigation should ensue.

The consequences for bullying/harrassment can be just as dramatic as for fighting.

 

Back in the day, more fights were settled off campus and often ended the negative environment from happening again. Some teasing might follow, but the stand up face to face process took care of most issues.

Now, on campus, on-going, potential weapons, potential gang involvement, are more likely to happen. It is a different world.

Did you have a School Resource Officer when you went to high school/jr high?

Most likely you didn't.

Did you go through metal detectors?

Didn't think so.

IMO, telling a child to hit another student on campus will more likely than not result in complications beyond what we saw in the old days.

Best wishes.

 

I was simply commenting on the advice I got a couple of generations ago. Of course, back then bullying did not take place at school, nor did retaliation because of other parental expectations i.e. the teacher is always right and school is where you get educated and listen to the teachers!!! If I made trouble at school I also had trouble at home. We had several dozen school resource officers (we called them mom and dad). I have carried a pocket knife almost every day for 60 years. I have never considered it a weapon. Of course we can't go back to the good old days, but I believe they show us what is wrong today.

 

I also don't give that advice to my own kids, but I do give them advice and counsel. I learned long ago how to diffuse volatile situations and do it every day in my job.

 

When parents were ACTIVELY involved in child raising, metal detectors were not required at school.

[tallman]

I hear you.

Districts are required by statute to enact certain policies.

Or, directed by the DOE.

Among them are bullying, harrassment, sexual harrassment, dating (yes ), drugs, alcohol, weapons, threats, electronic media use and abuse, gangs, display fo public affection, and so forth...

I have a booklet from 1930's public schools in Detroit.

I is concerned with things like roller skating, and typical dress/absence policies.

Times have changed.

ESE label grants certain privilege (sometimes needed, sometimes not) not afforded regular students.

Labels and safety nets galore.

Amongst this morass are some pretty good kids just trying to find their way.

Most of them do.

 

[russell_bynum]

Ken,

Sometimes.

The problem isn't if this process will work, which it doesn't always do, the problem is what happens when fighting takes place.

One punch is a fight.

Any effort to protect yourself and you are involved in the fight.

Some manage to differentitate between the instigator and the"victim" defending, but not always.

 

I learned that lesson. Senior year in high school. Some idiot decided to start something with me...in front of a class of kids and a teacher. He threw a punch. (didn't hurt much) I didn't even raise my guard.

 

I still got suspended for a day...same as him.

 

The lesson: If someone starts a fight with you, beat the sh*t of them. You're going to get the same punishment regardless if you fight back or not.

[ratfink]

Most of us remember being bullied, but does anyone remember being a bully? Have you gone to a reunion and confronted a former bully and had them admit that they were? I have a feeling that all the bullies from high school evaporated just like all the Natzis after World War II.

 

---

 

 

Yes I remember being bullied and I'm pretty surprised at the comments from some posters that were not aware of bullying going on when they were in school.

 

I also engaged in some bullying or hazing. Nothing physical but I did have a sharp tongue and could embarass people severely with a comment. At a 10 year reunion, a guy confronted me about this. I did my best to acknowledge it and apologize and ask for another chance at friendship. I was a little surprised that a wound of words could last so long but I guess sometimes it does.

 

As it turns out this fellow is a motorcyclist and in the last few years we have gone on some nice rides together. Last summer on his new monster, he schooled me pretty good on proper riding technique.

[yabadabapal]

Just got home from work. Yikes, long day. So before I hit the sack I was reading the posts and suddenly I had this thought.

I'm thinking that within ten years, they will have some sort of licensing agreement where the owners and moderators have to be licensed to run a public forum ie social network forum. Probably have to take a class and pass a test on how to spot potential bullying etc. Just a thought. Gdnight!