US church - Quran burning

[CoarsegoldKid]

Are they crazy or what? Even the US Army doesn't like the idea.

[upflying]

Do you have a link to the story?

[philbytx]

They don't have a problem with telling us we will die and burning Old Glory and the Union Jack .

So what do I care about THEIR feelings about THEIR book??

 

Would love them to try coming to the Bible belt to stop it though....

[Matts_12GS]

one linky

 

What's the big deal?

 

I mean, if they are his personal property and he adheres to fire codes does it matter?

 

 

[David]

The problem is this, as I see it.

 

It's not Islam and it's not their holy book. There's a lot of violence in the Qur'an, but there's just as much violence in the Bible that supposedly this pastor follows.

 

While it's legal to do this, I don't see it as anything but inflammatory and nonsensical. What does it accomplish but give media attention to the nut job here and the nut jobs there?

 

Our fight is with radical Islam, not the Qur'an.

[Selden]

The big deal is that we have 150,000 troops in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and this stupidity is giving the enemy even more reason to attack them. Burning Qur'ans is a great recruiting tool for al-Qa'eda.

 

Also, he does not have a bonfire permit from the city of Gainesville.

[Matts_12GS]

I'm not disagreeing with you David, I think it's a bonehead move and certainly not one that I would encourage a man of the cloth to pursue. I don't think he'd ever follow through on it, but it is geared to pointing out the double standards applied to Christian actions vs. those of muslims in the "courts of public opinion."

 

All in all, this is a fart in a windstorm that is trying to be as provocative as say; building a cultural center near the scene of a mass murder perpetrated in the name of religion? It'll fail miserably, make America look even worse in the eyes of her critics and in the end wind up making us all pay some kind of diversity tax...

 

 

The big deal is that we have 150,000 troops in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and this stupidity is giving the enemy even more reason to attack them. Burning Qur'ans is a great recruiting tool for al-Qa'eda.

 

Also, he does not have a bonfire permit from the city of Gainesville.

 

Knocking down large buildings was a great recruiting tool for our military.

 

Besides, bon fire permits are pretty easy to obtain, and as long as it's not under drought conditions, he can do a controlled burn in a trash can, or a fireplace pretty much as he chooses.

[philbytx]

Freedom of.......

[David]

It is geared to pointing out the double standards applied to Christian actions vs. those of muslims in the "courts of public opinion."

 

Yes, that's a good point. It can be amazing to see how some people define progressive.

[Whip]

To me this is like the Mosque near ground zero.

 

Both are legal.

 

Both are stupid stunts.

 

I wish to register my protest, but do nothing more.

 

L

 

 

[upflying]

The problem is this, as I see it.

 

.

 

While it's legal to do this, I don't see it as anything but inflammatory and nonsensical. What does it accomplish but give media attention to the nut job here and the nut jobs there?

 

Our fight is with radical Islam, not the Qur'an.

 

The proposed mosque in Manhattan is a block or two away from ground zero. Isn't Islam's decision to build there also nonsensical and inflammatory? Didn't this also bring the nut jobs out?

If we are going to let Islam build a mosque there based on religious freedoms that are protected by the constitution why can't a church also burn their "bible"?

 

I guess Whip beat me to it.

[beemerman2k]

That church can do that.

 

Assuming we can temporarily agree that this religion stuff is true; I cannot for the life of me believe that Jesus would ever approve of such behavior on the part of his followers and worshipers. Muslims do not profess to follow Jesus as their Lord, so they are not bound to honor his values. Christians, however, are (or so I'm told).

 

Jesus teaches us in his Sermon on the Mount how to deal with difficult people.

 

"You have heard that it is said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person...You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven...So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

 

[pbharvey]

One of the great things about America is that its not illegal to be stupid, its just stupid. I'm more disturbed that a United States General found it necessary to weigh in on the actions of a previously unknown pastor of a 50 member congregation. I also felt humiliated as a US citizen that the good general felt this pastor's actions would put our men and women in the armed forces in greater danger than they are now. Are we so weak that we are afraid to make "them" mad by burning the quran? I don't have top secret clearance but I'm pretty sure they're mad at us already. How does this guy get told to stand down by a general and the westboro baptist certified nut jobs don't get reprimanded for the untold emotional stress they've put on our soldier's families?

 

[Dave McReynolds]

I think it's stupid to burn the Quran, and if I had the opportunity, I would tell whoever planned to do that to not do it.

 

OTOH, if someone burned a Christian bible, not just in some Muslim country, but in the next block to the church that plans to burn the Quran, what would the likely reaction of the members of that church be? Would they riot, burn things, and demand the lives of the people who burned the bible? No, probably they would pray for the souls of the people who burned the bible.

 

Telling, isn't it?

[Mike]

It's certainly reprehensible, but reprehensible things happen in America every minute of every day. Publicizing this guy's stunt gives him more power than he deserves.

 

There are some mighty puny men in this world, bereft of soul and decency. This phony pastor is one of those men.

[Bob Palin]

Assuming we can temporarily agree that this religion stuff is true;

I won't agree to assume that for a second - all these events tell me is that religion truly is the root of all evil.

 

There is one fundamental difference between building the mosque and burning the books, the first is at least constructive. From what I read about the plans of the mosque it seems more like an Islamic YMCA than a shrine to murdering westerners.

[Dave McReynolds]

Islamic YMCA

 

Is that anything like a Catholic Ashram?

[Selden]

Assuming we can temporarily agree that this religion stuff is true; I cannot for the life of me believe that Jesus would ever approve of such behavior on the part of his followers and worshipers. Muslims do not profess to follow Jesus as their Lord, so they are not bound to honor his values. Christians, however, are (or so I'm told).

In fact, Muslims recognize Jesus as a major prophet, and even acknowledge the virgin birth story (there is quite a moving passage in the Qur'an, the Sura Maryam, about his birth. The Christian Bible, like the Torah, is recognized as a holy book, and I suspect that the idea of burning either one would be anathema to even the most doctrinaire salafi.

 

While I accept that both the proposed Florida Qur'an burning and the proposed Islamic center in New York are dumb ideas (although both are fully protected under the U.S. Constitution), I cannot equate the two. The people behind the proposed Islamic center have reached out to interfaith communication and understanding for years, while the Florida preacher is preaching a message of bigotry and hatred. Opportunistic politicians took a relatively minor zoning matter in New York City, and turned it into an Islamophobic crusade. Mayor Bloomberg has been one of the few politicians who hasn't pandered to the worst instincts of the population.

 

I am equally skeptical of all established religions, and am currently about half way through reading Christopher Hitchens' book, God Is Not Great : How Organized Religion Poisons Everything. It's too bad that the lives of Hitchens and William F. Buckley didn't overlap more; a Buckley-Hitchens debate would have made for a riveting episode of "The Firing Line" -- two intelligent, literate people going at it, rather than the screaming heads that pass for "fair and balanced" discussion in today's TV.

 

[ratfink]

It seems to me that innocent Muslims died and were injured in the WTC attack. Why is it not appropriate to build a Mosque nearby?

 

Burning Korans I think is just a publicity stunt.

 

Dove World Outreach? How Ironic!

[Bob Palin]

It seems to me that innocent Muslims died and were injured in the WTC attack.

Not only that but many more died as we (rightly IMHO) removed the Taliban government that supported the attacks. Far more innocent Muslims have died as a result of the terrorits than Christians or Americans, not that the mosque is intended to represent any of that.

[AviP]

A pastor who promotes the burning of ANY religious book should be stripped off his collar. This kind of stuff happens in third world countries and should not be tolerated in the US. I hope the government intervenes before people die for nothing.

[Bob Palin]

I hope the government intervenes before people die for nothing.

I agree with your basic sentiment but on what grounds do you think the government should intervene?

[pbharvey]

City Council Meetings to Begin with Muslim Prayer

 

Seriously, sometimes I think the whole entire country's gone nuts.

 

A nut in Florida wants to stick it in their eye, and a nut in Connecticut wants to kiss their rear ends.

[ratfink]

I hope the government intervenes before people die for nothing.

I agree with your basic sentiment but on what grounds do you think the government should intervene?

 

The government has intervened in snake handling religion, faith healing religion and polygymist religion.

 

In regards to freedom of speech one Supreme Court decision was based on the opinion that you don't have the right to yell "fire" in a crowed theater.

[Selden]

My wife and I just spent the evening at an iftar (literally "break fast") meal at the Istanbul Center in downtown Atlanta. For me, the high point of the evening was making fun of arrogant Wahhabis with a guy named Mansoor Ansari, a Lebanese-American rug dealer originally from Boston -- who sounded like one of the Magliozzi brothers. He also did a hilarious rap (in English) on the prophet Muhammad.

[ratfink]

"Behind us lay Atlanta smoldering and in ruins, the black smoke rising high in the air and hanging like a ball over the ruined city."

 

General Sherman

 

Hope they didn't build the Istanbul Center close to that.

[AviP]

I hope the government intervenes before people die for nothing.

I agree with your basic sentiment but on what grounds do you think the government should intervene?

On moral grounds of course: to save lives.

[Quinn]

This is one man with a congregation of less than 50 people. How did he ever get on National News? ABC snuck it in by saying that everyone was talking about it; guess that makes it news. We weren't talking about it until it became news. Sort of like the chicken or the egg. Would someone burning the Bible, Declaration of Independence, Flag, etc. make National News so they could report that we were talking about it?

 

I also wonder where the Media is trying the herd the public by blowing this up into a news story. The obvious manipulation and cheap soundbites show the news media at its worst in my opinion.

 

---

 

 

[Selden]

A study study after Gulf War I that found that the more time people spent watching war coverage on TV, the less they understood about the situation. 24x7 news coverage means there are far more hours of broadcasting than there are of "news" to fill all that time, so what we get is mindless repetition, manufactured news, and trivia.

[Twisties]

The first I heard of it was after protests started in Muslim countries. At that point it is certainly newsworthy by any standard.

 

Has anyone traced back how the story got abroad? Did the Dovites do something to publicize it, or was their website found by Muslims, or did the US media advertise it? While my general sentiments are in line with the criticism of the media, I will not condemn them for this case w/o some evidence.

[Boone60]

I'd like to see world news reports of protests against those that are bombing mosques and travelers to worship at muslim holy sites.

[1springer]

First the burning seems absolutely pointless to me, but I suppose it's his right to do so.

 

Secondly, if the administration has any brains at all they will treat this like the plague and avoid getting involved.

 

Third, regardless of what the military thought IMHO they should not have spoken out on this issue (if in fact they did). It's one thing to speak out on the consequences of withdrawal dates and leaks of war related documents but it's another matter to get involved in a civilian religious figure burning a religious document. The burning may or may not give aid to the enemy and being a combat veteran I fully understand the militaries concerns, but this is a d--- slippery slope to be on in my opinion.

 

Fourth, I have precious little respect for most of the media in this country and their motives are highly suspect in this matter and others. They seem to have gone from reporting on problems/issue to becoming part of the problem if not thee problem.

 

And now I'm going to try and get my buddy off his dead butt and go do some mountain riding on a bike I've had out only 3 times the year. Hopefully, at least for a while, i can forget that the country in general seems to be going to H___ in a hand basket. I must admit I've never fully understood that phrase.

[philbytx]

"I must admit I've never fully understood that phrase"

 

HERE you go!

 

And, to be honest, I've just about given up trying to make sense of any of it. The finger pointing, the blame game, really just the sheer stupidity of it (them!) all. I feel more and more like Diogenes.....!

 

[tallman]

Please don't taint all Floridians with the actions of one cuckoonut.

He does reside in Gainesville, but I'll not go there...

 

This is nothing but a provocative, publicity seeking, most likely constitutionally protected non-event that the media turned into a maelstrom.

The big deal is that extremists will use it as another excuse to murder more people.

 

Sad day when one apparent bigot can manipulate the media for his self-aggrandization.

Almost seems likes terrorism to me...

[Fubar]

The problem is this, as I see it.

 

It's not Islam and it's not their holy book. There's a lot of violence in the Qur'an, but there's just as much violence in the Bible that supposedly this pastor follows.

 

While it's legal to do this, I don't see it as anything but inflammatory and nonsensical. What does it accomplish but give media attention to the nut job here and the nut jobs there?

 

Our fight is with radical Islam, not the Qur'an.

+1

Only difference is that the problem is with religious extremists, not just Muslims. This guy, Terry Jones, in Gainesville, FL is an extremist, a Christian one. He is trying to raise the profile of his teachings by promoting violence (though not expicitly) with inflammatory actions and words. The center of FL is very conservative, seriously bible belt. He's looking to recruit members.

 

He has raised the profile of his little church (reportedly 50 members) and his point of view with this planned exercise of his Constitutionally guaranteed First Amendment rights. I will defend those rights though I abhor this particular use of them. Nothing can be gained from it save peaceful discussion of a sensitive topic.

My $.02

[philbytx]

And, in the interests of fairness, HERE is the other side of the equation. None of it is right....and I continue to feel more and more like Diogenes....!

 

 

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

And, in the interests of fairness, HERE is the other side of the equation. None of it is right....and I continue to feel more and more like Diogenes....!

 

Peace and tranquility that bunch.

[Ken H.]

I also felt humiliated as a US citizen that the good general felt this pastor's actions would put our men and women in the armed forces in greater danger than they are now.

It’s simple... Burning = offensive = outrage = violence = more violent actions = more harm = more deaths.

 

 

The thing that I think is most astonishing about this is how can he (Jones) think anything good will ever come out of this what-so-ever? That it will accomplish event the slightest thing positive? What does he expect to accomplish? His little stunt will suddenly galvanize the nation against Islam or something? Pleeease... Not very damn likely. In four days it will be gone from the memory of 90% of our AADD population these days when their attention rushes off to the next thing the talking heads put in front of us. Did you hear that Jennifer Aniston is trying to steal Harry Morton from Lindsay Lohan! WOW!

 

But in the meantime it will stay seared into the memories of those extremist who wish to harm others forever. (With emphasis on the word extremist, who are decidedly not representative of the Muslim world as a whole.) The video (of the burning) will be play 1000s and 1000s of times over and over again in attempts to give evidence to their arguments and turn others against us. And, to some extent anyway, it will be successful.

 

We can (justifiably I suppose) preach all day long about the right in the USA (and in the case of something like this, to a lesser extent in Canada) to do something stupid. But I don’t think that in any way negates the obligation to consider, condemn, and attempt to dissuade the doing of something stupid in the light of its potential consequences. We can’t just automatically in the name of the First Amendment divorce the action from the reaction.

 

The old axiom, “Do no harm...”

 

[philbytx]

In the Middle East and beyond, there is a tradition of storytelling. This is especially true in many "Third World" countries with few modern communications. There are itinerant storytellers who hold court in places such as marketplaces, coffee houses etc, wherein they recount to both old and new generations, stories about Iskendr (Alexander the Great in Turkish)and his victories and also tales of the Crusaders. The distant past is kept alive and well in most of these countries.

 

Now, especially in the U.S., anything that is "yesterdays news" is just that. Try to discuss history with any teenager or 20 something. They are, generally, totally ignorant of any event over 20 years old!

 

Old grievances are still there, kept alive in the memories of these cultures and most Westerners find this difficult to comprehend.

 

Distilling it all down, Man is a tribal animal. We still are and will remain so. Any culture that believes that they are politically, culturally and/or morally superior to another is merely deluding themselves and will, eventually, be doomed to failure.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike]

The thing that I think is most astonishing about this is how can he (Jones) think anything good will ever come out of this what-so-ever?

 

He doesn't think that. Let's be truthful--What he's doing is evil, a self-serving play for publicity that wrongly demonizes others and contravenes the basic tenets of his own faith.

 

E-V-I-L. Whether supernatural in origin or simply a reflection of the nature of man, evil is around us. In the context of this discussion, the rotten SOBs who planned and executed the 9/11 attack were evil. The jackasses who continue to plot these types of attacks are evil. And, of course, many of the reactions that these evil acts have engendered are themselves evil.

 

Sometimes, after you attempt to understand what seems inexplicable, after you attempt to apply careful social, political and psychological analysis, you are simply driven toward the only explanation that makes sense: some human beings are rotten.

[Selden]

In the Middle East and beyond, there is a tradition of storytelling. This is especially true in many "Third World" countries with few modern communications. There are itinerant storytellers who hold court in places such as marketplaces, coffee houses etc, wherein they recount to both old and new generations, stories about Iskendr (Alexander the Great in Turkish)and his victories and also tales of the Crusaders. The distant past is kept alive and well in most of these countries.

 

Now, especially in the U.S., anything that is "yesterdays news" is just that. Try to discuss history with any teenager or 20 something. They are, generally, totally ignorant of any event over 20 years old!

 

Old grievances are still there, kept alive in the memories of these cultures and most Westerners find this difficult to comprehend.

 

Distilling it all down, Man is a tribal animal. We still are and will remain so. Any culture that believes that they are politically, culturally and/or morally superior to another is merely deluding themselves and will, eventually, be doomed to failure.

This isn't just a "third world" or Middle Eastern thing. Living in the South, I can assure you there are plenty of people who are still miffed about the recent unpleasantness, otherwise known as the War of Northern Aggression.

 

And, the Serbs are still trying to come to terms with the battle of Kosovo (1389).

[philbytx]

Agreed Selden

I was merely just sticking with the Q'ran "topic in hand" as it were. Which is most unlike me I must say !

[Ken H.]

The thing that I think is most astonishing about this is how can he (Jones) think anything good will ever come out of this what-so-ever?

He doesn't think that. Let's be truthful--What he's doing is evil, a self-serving play for publicity that wrongly demonizes others and contravenes the basic tenets of his own faith.

Well I’m not in his head, so I’m not going to go so far as to say he doesn’t probably think what he’s doing is a good thing that will accomplish (or at least further) whatever he thinks is good and right.

 

One of my favorite sayings is, “Never underestimate the human mind’s ability to justify its own actions.”

 

 

 

[Ken H.]

Any culture that believes that they are politically, culturally and/or morally superior to another is merely deluding themselves and will, eventually, be doomed to failure.

Now that’s a statement to which I can only say, +1.

[Selden]

Of course Terry Jones believes he's doing the right thing -- as does Osama Bin Laden. Deluded people who think that only they know the will of god is the fundamental problem.

[Ken H.]

And, in the interests of fairness, HERE is the other side of the equation. None of it is right....and I continue to feel more and more like Diogenes....!

Peace and tranquility that bunch.

I think part of this issue is that Western societies, largely (but not exclusively of course) Christian and Jewish based, is the West doesn’t have an understanding, and doesn’t comprehend how deeply ingrained some other religions are into the physic and very elements of the mind itself. (For the sake of this conversation e.g. Islam.) How things such as the importance and sacredness of the Qur'an (or images of Muhammad) are not just a belief in the believer’s life, they are their life. Ever as much as ingrained, fundamental, core and automatic as the need to drinking water.

 

Why I'm sure some will disagree, and there are exceptions, I think by-and-large Christianity and Judaism (again just using examples to avoid typing a long list of religions) are a guidance for/to their followers' lives, they are not core fundamental to their lives. Principles and practices to be follow as part of your life, but not your life in and of itself. Clergies of various religions being (at least to a greater extent) an obvious exception. As are extremist of any religious persuasion.

 

We could seriously dislike / disagree with / hate even, a Christian Bible or Tanakh (or flag for that matter in a patriotic frame) burning, but it is hard for us to relate to such a thing being a fundamental affront to our very core, to our very existence. So much so, that it's hard to even think of, or grasp a parallel to the planned burning of the Qur'an as being the severity that it is. About the only metaphor I can think of at the moment that may approach the same level of outrage in Western society is the raping of your sister.

 

Now that of course will be met here with howls of epic proportion, ‘Burning a book is NOTHING like raping my sister!’ But the fact that we can’t wrap our head around the fact that burning a Qur'an IS like raping your sister, is in-and-of-itself core to the problem, evidence of the vast chasm of missunderstanding that exist.

 

I mean think about it, if we all truly, fundamentally, at our very core of life itself believe, without hesitation or doubt, not even part of ‘I think’ but of ‘I am’, that our religious belief (whatever it might be), indeed our religious being, was our absolute singular only reason for even existing - should we all be 'extremist'?

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Any culture that believes that they are politically, culturally and/or morally superior to another is merely deluding themselves and will, eventually, be doomed to failure.

Now thats a statement to which I can only say, +1.

 

:confused:

 

Then why are we trying so hard to change other cultures? I'm thinking of, for example:

 

• stoning to death (using only modest-sized, not-instantly-fatal stones) of adulterers and homosexuals
   
  
• honor killings
   
  
• subjugation of women (can't drive, can't venture outside on your own)
   
  
• suppression of basic freedoms taken for granted in the U.S.

if I understand you correctly, then you are saying that a culture which condemns and fights these practices is not superior to one which embraces these practices.

 

If so, I disagree.

[Matts_12GS]

And, in the interests of fairness, HERE is the other side of the equation. None of it is right....and I continue to feel more and more like Diogenes....!

Peace and tranquility that bunch.

 

One of my favorite sayings is, “Never underestimate the human mind’s ability to justify its own actions.”

 

And you just proved your point in your own posts.

 

Your prescience is admirable.

[1springer]

"We can’t just automatically in the name of the First Amendment divorce the action from the reaction."

 

Hello slippery slope.

 

"I would give benefit of the law to the devil if for no other reason than to protect myselff."

[SeanC]

It's just a frickin' book for crikesake, a bunch of paper with words printed on it. I agree it's a self-serving publicity stunt, but since when is that evil (let alone E-V-I-L)? Was the Danish cartoonist evil? How 'bout Trey Parker and Matt Stone? Weren't their actions with regard to islam self-serving stunts? Or do they get a pass because they're in the business of self-serving publicity? C'mon.

 

Personally, I would rather tear out some pages of the koran and use them to make a hat... or a pterodactyl.