'96 R1100RSL Newb - Starter Problem?

[lavinsr]

First off thanks in advance for your help. Situation; Thursday bike running fine albeit battery may be a little "low". Slow to crank but starts with open choke. 30,000 miles bought her 4 weeks ago from moto works in Chicago.

 

This AM nothing, not one crank hitting the start button; just click. Lights appear good, hit start button all dims, loud click, nothing. Cannot get her to run start either. Getting very tired now..., I remove the battery and deep cycle her all day. I could not charge the new battery in body 'cause she is in the street in a very expensive parking meter area. Battery was indeed very low but fully charged when I put her back in.

 

Now strong lights, minor dim when hit start button, loud click at starter and nothing.

 

She is not in a good spot that I can work on her. Willing to hit the starter with hammer though as this used to work on my old '72 Datsun. Any ideas? She won't run start with full battery either.

 

Thanks all...

 

 

[NonComp]

If the battery is at the end of its life, then it may just not have enough juice to get the job done. Bump starting may be an option if the fuel pump has cycled up and you are on a hill. But that doesn't solve the problem. But it might get the bike running so that you can take it back to the dealer.

 

How old is the battery? Can you take the battery in to a shop and get them to load test it for you? I'd do that before thinking about pulling the starter or buying a new battery.

[lavinsr]

Battery is new. may have have gotten discharged a bit while parked and local grocery store earlier this week. Moot however since I re-charged it today I guess...(?)

 

Next?

[SKYGZR]

no harm in changing out the starter...except paying for it. Not that much from here: EuroMoto

 

--or-- you could monkey around with "parts" and such..but just put a new one in.

 

Here's the actual Valeo unit for a few valueless FRAUD'S (Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Devices) more Valeo

[lavinsr]

NonComp, SKYGZR thanks for posting back; appreciated. So it sounds like it's my starter from the "sound" of the feedback. I guess my concern is I could knock it with a hammer (will do in a few minutes) and if that does not do the rick then I could remove the starter, try and clean it up a bit. problem is I am in the city, recently divorced (no tools) and in a really bad parking spot.

 

Any value in BMW roadside assistance or is that really $$$$$?

 

TY, again

[Redbrick]

Take a look at page 34 of the September issue of BMW ON magazine.........Paul Glaves talks about Sticky Starters and how fix the problem....Your symptoms duplicate what he describes....If you don't have access to a mag, it's basically take the starter off, clean it, lube it and replace it.....Minimal tools required (looks like an Allen wrench and a set of basic metric end wrenches would do it) and he did it in the campground at the MOA in Redmond in about half an hour.....Hitting it with a hammer is a questionable tactic, me thinks....

 

 

[lavinsr]

Phil, thanks. My confidence is up. Heading out to work on her with my fork, hex wrenches, and pliers. Sandpaper will be tough but suppose I can use my teeth in a pinch

[Redbrick]

Phil, thanks. My confidence is up. Heading out to work on her with my fork, hex wrenches, and pliers. Sandpaper will be tough but suppose I can use my teeth in a pinch

 

Looks like the right Allen size is all that is really critical as far as wrenches go.....Maybe one of the tech's will chip in here....

Be sure and take the ground wire off the battery before you start.........

[philbytx]

If you have a new battery, checked all the grounds and your starter just clicks and all the lights dim, you may well find that you have detached magnets in your can. This is a common fault with early Valeo starters. They used a different adhesive on the later ones. You will soon find out when you pull your starter. If you can't turn it, or it barely turns and you feel grinding as you turn it, it is your starter magnets. Best thing to do is replace the starter but, if you feel like a project and are handy with a wrench, you can buy a new "can" and rebuild your starter.

 

Go HERE for starter parts or replacement starter . John's a good guy and gives great service.

[NonComp]

Also, from what you initially posted, you bought your bike from a dealer 30 days ago. Don't discount the idea of taking it back to the dealer under your state's mandatory used vehicle warranty. They should cover something like this, even out of good will.

[lavinsr]

Phil/guys, I got the starter out and removed the two brushes from under the retaining spring. This is a Valeo starter D6RA. There is exactly 15mm of carbon brush "depth" left on each. Both are bare metal at the magnets and they are pretty clean however each has scoring where they hit the magnets; not nice and shiny - clean but surfaces scored not nice smooth like the top sides of the brushes.

 

The gear assembly moves smoothly on the shaft and the gears are nice and clean.

 

I am able to turn the shaft in the can using low strength. It moves and there is a smooth action no binding. I do not hear grinding although there is a sound coming from the can when the shaft turns. The sound is even with the turning and sounds like sand paper going over wood or similar material. hard for me to tell if it's a grinding sound...

 

I have cleaned all up - have not opened the can and am about to sand down the brushes a bit to remove the grooved scoring. Should I bother with this starter any longer?

 

Again thanks all,

Steve

[Redbrick]

Uncharted ground for me Steve....Need one of the gurus here.........

 

 

[SKYGZR]

Clean it up best you can, reinstall, try it out. Might work OK for awhile longer. These types of starters always will be a bit troublesome. The starter on the K100 is still the original. Have taken that thing apart numerous times, cleaned, installed new brushes, works great. It's different from these types on the twin. Much easier and user friendly to service, yet more difficult to get to/remove/reinstall.

[AndyS]

Phil/guys, I got the starter out and removed the two brushes from under the retaining spring. This is a Valeo starter D6RA. There is exactly 15mm of carbon brush "depth" left on each.

 

This is fine

 

 

Both are bare metal at the magnets

 

??? do you mean magnets? the brushes run in holders (bare) and rub against the armature comutator (bare), but these are no where near the magnets.

 

 

and they are pretty clean however each has scoring where they hit the magnets; not nice and shiny - clean but surfaces scored not nice smooth like the top sides of the brushes.

 

If you mean scored where the brushes contact the grooved surface of the armature commutator, then that' is not really too uncommon.

 

 

 

The gear assembly moves smoothly on the shaft and the gears are nice and clean.

 

That's good, but a thorough clean up and lube would help.

 

I am able to turn the shaft in the can using low strength. It moves and there is a smooth action no binding. I do not hear grinding although there is a sound coming from the can when the shaft turns. The sound is even with the turning and sounds like sand paper going over wood or similar material. hard for me to tell if it's a grinding sound....

 

I don't quite understand this part of your description.

 

I have cleaned all up - have not opened the can and am about to sand down the brushes a bit to remove the grooved scoring. Should I bother with this starter any longer? ....

 

I wouldn't sand thos brushes down, the contour is matched to the aramature commutator and you may make the contact worse.

 

So with the motor out of the bike and secured in say a vice, then with 12 volts applied to it, does the bendix assembley throw itself forward freely?

also does the starter motor turn freely both by hand and electrically?

 

Your symptoms definately point to a dickie starter motor.

 

Andy

[Anton Largiader]

Remove the three long bolts, disconnect the solenoid wire and pry the black cylindrical body away from the nose casting. If you see broken or irregularly spaced magnets inside the housing, you have a bad starter. The magnet housing can be replaced separately but a new/used starter might be more expedient.

[AndyS]

+1 to all Anton's comments above.

 

Andy

[lavinsr]

I think what I thought were magnets when looking into the carbon brush holes at the retaining spring is really the armature comutator.

 

I did lube the gear assembly, TY.

 

I live in an apartment now and no longer have a bench or vise so thinking I will forego the 12 volt hook-up. The shaft does rotate when I turn it by hand. There is resistance in turning it. It does go freely but not like a shaft on bearings - it takes some torque to turn by hand. When I do I hear sound from inside the can like a cleaning brush over a tire or scouring pad over a pan in the sink - hard to explain.

 

I am curious however as to why the bike will not bump start even if the starter is "bad"? For a successful bump start does the starter have to be healthy?

 

hey, thanks again to all for helping me through this. I think I need to get a new starter but will put this one back on for a last try.

 

Steve

[AndyS]

Steve, I understand your problem of neott being able to easily test the starter motor, if you have no access to a bench etc.

 

The resistance to turning may be due to either the magnets or the gearbox of the starter motor.

 

Your only option for physically checking it is as Anton proposes.

 

Now to your question about bump starting. Do you actually mean bump starting? ie ignition on, kill switch set to 'run', bike in (say)3/4th gear, clutch lever pulled in, get someone to push your bike (really fast) with you sat on the bike, when moving rapidly dump the clutch??

 

or do you mean 'jump start'. ie connecting power from another vehicle with jump leads to your battery, and then crank the motor with your stater button?

 

Andy

[lavinsr]

UPDATE: She is purring like the tiger she is now. After cleaning the starter and finding some broken chips of what looks like magnet out of the can it is no longer binding and she cranked up in about a turn+, right away.

 

After cleaning I decided to turn the starter shaft with my hand for some time. While I was doing this the shaft locked-up. I took the brushes out again, held the can upside down and tapped it until it turned again. Shaking while turning the chips fell out. There were two magnet chips, small like a pinky finger nail.

 

I did what I could to make sure I got loose particles out after that then closed all up.

 

I am going to get a new starter anyway and follow a few of the links you guys gave me.

 

Thanks to all Phil, Andy, SKYGZR, Anton and everyone else. I very much appreciate your help.

 

Steve

[AndyS]

Great to hear that news Steve.

You will need to get a replacement starter because the magnets will fail at some point especially as they they have moved already.

 

Andy

[philbytx]

+1 with Andy on this.

Your can magnets are toast and it WILL fail - DAMHIK.....buy a replacement starter .