Paying for parts dealer installed that did not fix the problem?

[KDeline]

You know the problems I have had in the last 7 weeks, so my veiw might be tainted. Why should I have to pay for parts the dealer installed, that did not fix a problem with the bike? Tech insisted these parts where bad but I still have the original problem. He said he would go back into the engine on his dime, but I would have to pay for more parts to go into it. I said fine, deduct the money I paid for the parts that did not cure the problem in the first place and if the new parts are more I will pay the diffrence. Nope, those parts are already in, not going to put in the old one's. Did not ask him to but he will not refund parts I obviously did not need. This is on a different bike then the GSA's. Having no luck with BMW's at the moment. So who is right here?

[Ken H.]

Personal opinion, if I’m paying someone (parts, labour, etc.) to fix something, regardless of what the something is (be it a BMW or a Maytag), the only thing I should have to pay for is what fixed it.

 

All else is a learning experience / training exercise on their part, and on their dime.

 

[elkroeger]

Seems to me that you're right.

 

But good luck. That's not the way the world goes 'round.

 

Imagine a similar scenario with your doctor: "we're going to remove your spleen. That should fix your hernia...". You can bet you won't get your money back on that procedure!

[Alan D]

Part of our business if fixing stuff we sold. Sometimes more than one thing can cause the problem and the only way we can find out is to install a part. We recently had a situation where the factory told us "it must be part X" part x cost is $850.00. We ordered part x installed it and it was not the problem. We have never sold a part x and probably never will. We did take the part off and returned it to the factory. They charged us a $250 restocking fee and a $120 testing fee. I protested, but I'm stuck unless I want to be canceled by the factory. (By the way, we get reimbursed 0 labor dollars on warranty work. The factory will only make good on a part after much paper work.) A firmware upgrade fixed the problem. Obviously we lost money. It's not easy being any kind of dealer despite what most people think.

[bobbybob]

I feel that from a strictly legal basis, if you asked him to just fix a problem--not install certain parts--he is obligated to fix the issue without replacing parts that didn't need it, and should not charge you for parts that were not needed. However, if you suggested you thought it might be the flux capacitor and he then installed a new one because of your suggestion, you are now somewhat involved in the repair process.

[KDeline]

However, if you suggested you thought it might be the flux capacitor and he then installed a new one because of your suggestion, you are now somewhat involved in the repair process.

 

Nope, they put in parts THEY thought were causing the problem.

[allikanbe]

I guess he could have put on new tires because yours were worn out.

[EffBee]

Simple. When the Repair Order is written, ask the service manager how much you're going to owe for parts and labor if their work doesn't fix the problem. Decide whether to have them work on the bike based on his answer. And if the answer is in your favor, get it in writing.

 

HOWEVER. . .

 

. . .be prepared to pay a lot more for diagnosis. Diags do not always pinpoint the exact cause, but rather an area of malfunction or potential malfunctions that MIGHT be the cause. To get a more narrowly defined diag may take more time. Think of a doctor saying, "I want to run more tests." They cost.

 

Your chances, and the dealer's chances, of getting the repair right increase with more information. However, that information takes time and effort, which is all money.

 

[tomk99r11]

Might let "thm" know you intend to contact your State Attorney General about them and see what response "they" give you. BUT, be prepared for future indifference on "their" part should you have a problem. I got almost instant results once when I dropped my State's Insurance Commissioner's name when getting jacked around.

[Haynes]

It's an interesting issue. A lot would depend on the dialogue you had with the tech when you chartered him with the repair task.

 

Then comes the issue of ownership of the new parts. If they are in your bike and you did not pay for them, are they yours? If one of the new parts fails, should they be covered under warranty?

 

In your situation, some compensation gesture would be nice.

[KDeline]

It's an interesting issue. A lot would depend on the dialogue you had with the tech when you chartered him with the repair task.

 

It was pretty basic. "It makes a funny noise. Can you fix it?" He says, "No problem"

 

Now after $1259.00 it still makes the same noise with $600.00 of new parts in it.

[KDeline]

HOWEVER. . .

 

. . .be prepared to pay a lot more for diagnosis. Diags do not always pinpoint the exact cause, but rather an area of malfunction or potential malfunctions that MIGHT be the cause. To get a more narrowly defined diag may take more time. Think of a doctor saying, "I want to run more tests." They cost.

 

Your chances, and the dealer's chances, of getting the repair right increase with more information. However, that information takes time and effort, which is all money.

 

They are willing to put the time in at no charge to me, I have a problem with paying for parts that did not fix it.

[KDeline]

I guess he could have put on new tires because yours were worn out.

 

[Shaman97]

You know the problems I have had in the last 7 weeks, so my veiw might be tainted. Why should I have to pay for parts the dealer installed, that did not fix a problem with the bike? Tech insisted these parts where bad but I still have the original problem. He said he would go back into the engine on his dime, but I would have to pay for more parts to go into it. I said fine, deduct the money I paid for the parts that did not cure the problem in the first place and if the new parts are more I will pay the diffrence. Nope, those parts are already in, not going to put in the old one's. Did not ask him to but he will not refund parts I obviously did not need. This is on a different bike then the GSA's. Having no luck with BMW's at the moment. So who is right here?

 

You're right. You shouldn't be paying 'professionals' for Easter Egg troubleshooting; you could do that for a lot less $$.

 

If you used a credit card for the repairs, contest the charges on the old parts and materials. If the repair shop complains, you may have to negotiate. If so, offer to pay for the parts at their cost since they are still in the bike, and nothing for the labor, since it didn't resolve the problem you brought it to them for.

 

The analogies to a doctor are specious. Every body that comes into a Doc's office is different. Every motorcycle is supposed to be the same. If the right person with the right tools is analyzing the problem, the problem should be fixed by the business that is setup to do the repairs the first time.

[Quinn]

I can see that the type of parts replaced could make a difference. Were they wear items, like a timing belt or HES sensor? If so, then I'd be willing to pay for them because I'd receive a benefit from their replacement down the line. How about things that get destroyed removing them? If it was something that lasts forever until it breaks, then I'd be less willing. Did they save the old parts to show you that they were bad or were they just shotgunning the problem?

 

Also, why didn't they know the problem wasn't fixed and continue working on it? I gather from your post that the answer is no; they took a SWAG and turned it back over to you.

 

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[Joe Frickin' Friday]

If you used a credit card for the repairs, contest the charges on the old parts and materials.

 

Not likely to go well. Invoice probably lists the service as "replace item X". Credit card company asks "did they replace item X?" When you admit that they did exactly what the invoice said they would, there's no contest.

[allikanbe]

I rider on know on another bmw site took his K12GT in to the BMW dealer because his ABS light was on. Dealer said his ABS module was not working and it needed to be replaced for more than $2K. I told him to take the GT to the local Ducati dealer just for a second opinion. The Duc dealer charged the battery and all was good - and still is. The BMW dealer would have replaced the ABS module and then would have had to charge or replace the battery since the original ABS module was good anyway.

So, either it is a bad diagnosis or the dealer was purposely trying to charge for unnecessary and expensive parts. Should the rider have to pay for the ABS module if he had it replaced at the BMW dealer? I think not, but it's unlikely the rider would have known the truth.

[Richard_D]

It sounds like they just wanted to make money and obviously weren't sure what the problem was. They made a mistake and you shouldn't have to pay for it. They need to lose the money and learn a lesson and not you. Take them to small claims court. At least if you try and lose, you gave it your best effort and won't feel as bad.

[bobbybob]

You know the problems I have had in the last 7 weeks, so my veiw might be tainted. Why should I have to pay for parts the dealer installed, that did not fix a problem with the bike? Tech insisted these parts where bad but I still have the original problem. He said he would go back into the engine on his dime, but I would have to pay for more parts to go into it. I said fine, deduct the money I paid for the parts that did not cure the problem in the first place and if the new parts are more I will pay the diffrence. Nope, those parts are already in, not going to put in the old one's. Did not ask him to but he will not refund parts I obviously did not need. This is on a different bike then the GSA's. Having no luck with BMW's at the moment. So who is right here?

 

 

By the way--what are the symptoms you were experiencing and what did they specifically do to remedy it?

[KDeline]

 

 

By the way--what are the symptoms you were experiencing and what did they specifically do to remedy it?

 

 

Well the details are very hard to describe. There is a clicking/ticking/knocking sound and a sound that I can only describe as a spring being sprung, and or sheet metal vibrating on metal coming from the front of the engine/bike. IMO two different causes. There is no rhyme or rhythm to it whatsoever. Doesn't match engine or wheel speed and makes the sound in gear moving or sitting in neutral at above idle. You can hear it more when you are moving. This is on Kate's 2002 brick engine K1200RS. They changed out the timing gears, chain, and guides, all of which looks fine to my eye.

[elkroeger]

...The analogies to a doctor are specious. Every body that comes into a Doc's office is different. Every motorcycle is supposed to be the same....

 

I'm gonna disagree with that. Every human body really is pretty much the same. Certainly they are more similar than all the used BMWs out on the road. I would argue that there are only two models of people: male and female, whereas you have dozens of models of bmws (F, R, K, air, oil, hex...).

 

Sure, you got children and fat people and exercise fanatics and grannies.... But in the same way, the repair needs of my '96 11RSL have little resemblance to the guy's down the street. Mine has overheated and nearly seized up 20K miles ago. His has 100K more miles on the clock, relatively problem free.... I ride mine to work every day. He doesn't commute, but he rides his to the East coast and back... You get the idea.

 

Now if you're talking about a Veterinarian... dogs, lizards, fish, cows, birds... Then okay, the bodies really are quite different.

 

 

 

[Shaman97]

No two patients are the same due to heredity, lifestyles, exercise habits, blood chemistry, etc.

 

No doc I've heard of will say 'sure, we can fix that' before a professional diagnosis is made. Just too many complexities. That's why all the schooling is involved to become a competent doc.

 

A mechanic? Not so much, though finding a good mechanic can be as tough as (or tougher) than finding a good doctor.

[elkroeger]

I'm pretty sure you didn't understand my analogy at all.

 

[Shaman97]

Understood it, just disagree with the conclusion. Bodies aren't machines, though they almost have all the same parts. Some genetically inferior or superior from the outset; this is a given.

 

Motorcycle machinery is supposed to be identical due to QC practices such as Lean processes and Six Sigma etc. Years of use lead to wearing out of these parts (as in the human body), but the measurement of specs and tolerances of each part is a quantifiable value that should be understood by a competent mechanic using the proper analysis method(s).

 

There isn't anything on a motorcycle that is inoperable, unlike the body.

[elkroeger]

Motorcycle machinery is supposed to be identical due to QC practices

 

Clearly no two motorcycles can be identical. That's what QA/QC does - assure that the part is within certain tolerances. Most of these tolerances are arrived at after years of failures. The parts become more similar and more accurate over time. Identical, however, is unobtainable. If you don't believe me, re-read your statistics text.

 

...the measurement of specs and tolerances of each part is a quantifiable value that should be understood by a competent mechanic using the proper analysis method(s)....

 

Replace the term "part" with "organ", and the same goes for your doctor.

 

...There isn't anything on a motorcycle that is inoperable, unlike the body...

 

What's an inoperable problem got to do with the analogy between doctors and mechanics, and whether this guy's gonna get his money back? You don't get your money back when you have your appendix out, and you've actually got IBS. You don't get your money back when they put in a new alternator and it turns out your battery's shot. Lets not lose sight of the original question.

[tomk99r11]

It seems to me that the posts have long ago faded from the original issue. IMO of course.

[Alan D]

It seems to me that the posts have long ago faded from the original issue. IMO of course.

 

"Well the details are very hard to describe. There is a clicking/ticking/knocking sound and a sound that I can only describe as a spring being sprung, and or sheet metal vibrating on metal coming from the front of the engine/bike. IMO two different causes. There is no rhyme or rhythm to it whatsoever. Doesn't match engine or wheel speed and makes the sound in gear moving or sitting in neutral at above idle. You can hear it more when you are moving. This is on Kate's 2002 brick engine K1200RS. They changed out the timing gears, chain, and guides, all of which looks fine to my eye"

 

Gee doc, it hurts somewhere when I move sometimes.

[Quinn]

I guess plan B is to just ride it until something fails and then hope they can find it. Maybe just until it does it all the time so they'll know when to stop throwing parts at it.

 

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[Richard_D]

IMO they should have made it perfectly clear that it's hard to diagnose, and what they're changing might or might not solve the problem. If they told him that these were the parts he needed to solve the problem, and it didn't , they need to not charge him and chalk it up to they made a mistake . It's all in what they said from the beginning.

[notacop]

Seems some one forgot that BMW means Bring My Wallet

[KDeline]

Now they are saying the parts were worn anyway.....Well yea, 20,000 miles worth, doesn't mean you had to change them out.

[Richard_D]

That's not why they replaced them. they replaced them because of the noise.Take them to smalll claims.Tell them you're going to and they may change their mind. Notify them of your intentions in a certified letter. This has worked for me in the past. Go all the way if necessary . You can say you at least tried.

[Boffin]

 

 

By the way--what are the symptoms you were experiencing and what did they specifically do to remedy it?

 

 

Well the details are very hard to describe. There is a clicking/ticking/knocking sound and a sound that I can only describe as a spring being sprung, and or sheet metal vibrating on metal coming from the front of the engine/bike. IMO two different causes. There is no rhyme or rhythm to it whatsoever. Doesn't match engine or wheel speed and makes the sound in gear moving or sitting in neutral at above idle. You can hear it more when you are moving. This is on Kate's 2002 brick engine K1200RS. They changed out the timing gears, chain, and guides, all of which looks fine to my eye.

 

I would use a mechanics stethescope (metal rod with ear-cup - can use a big screwdriver with the handle against your ear) and put it to varouis parts of the bike to localise where the noise is coming from - helps with diagnosis - any competent mechanic should start with this - did they?

 

Another thing - many odd 'engine' noises are caused by loose bodywork, heat sheilds etc. - did they check for those?

 

Andy

[KDeline]

 

I would use a mechanics stethescope (metal rod with ear-cup - can use a big screwdriver with the handle against your ear) and put it to varouis parts of the bike to localise where the noise is coming from - helps with diagnosis - any competent mechanic should start with this - did they?

 

Another thing - many odd 'engine' noises are caused by loose bodywork, heat sheilds etc. - did they check for those?

 

Andy

 

 

They did use a stethescope and I have looked all over for lose parts as that is what I thought it was.

[KDeline]

That's not why they replaced them. they replaced them because of the noise.Take them to smalll claims.Tell them you're going to and they may change their mind. Notify them of your intentions in a certified letter. This has worked for me in the past. Go all the way if necessary . You can say you at least tried.

 

With so few dealers left I can't afford to piss any off.

[Richard_D]

If there's an issue with not having a good dealer around to keep your bike running, it's time to either do the work yourself, go to tech days to get the work done, or change brands. My dealer ruined all the plastic on my new bike and when I complained , he said I should go buy a Honda. I never went back to him again. It was a blessing in disguise. Thanks to this forum and all the great people on it, I learned to do all the work myself. For 6 years I never needed a dealer on my RT. I also found buying my parts on-line was 20% cheaper.

[KDeline]

I do a lot of work myself, but when it's time to tear into an engine or replace final drive bearings it goes to the dealer.