Synthetic engine oil

[Crash]

I cannot find in search or FAQ info on mobil 1 engine oil. Do I have to use the 20-50 V twin oil or can I use an automotive type 10-40 or 10-30 of Mobil 1, because of no wet clutch.

[russell_bynum]

I use the automotive stuff.

[Crash]

which viscosity?

[russell_bynum]

Damn...I knew you were going to ask that.

 

I can't remember which viscosity I use. Wallmart had a sale a while back and I bought a whole mess of it, so I haven't had to think about that in quite a while. Hopefully someone else can be more helpful.

[RichEdwards]

15-50.

[smiller]

BMW recommends a 20W-50 for most operating conditions and most everyone considers the 15W-50 Mobil One formulation to be acceptably close.

[russell_bynum]

BMW recommends a 20W-50 for most operating conditions and most everyone considers the 15W-50 Mobil One formulation to be acceptably close.

 

That's the one: 15W-50.

 

[topdal46]

Why not Ask ExxonMobil?

 

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2PVLMOMobil1_Motorcycle_Oils.asp

[scottd]

Has anyone ever heard of an oil related failure of a motorcycle engine? I haven't so it seems like it isn't really that big a deal. BMW says to use 20-50 so if it says that on the bottle you should be good to go.

[313_Matt]

Has anyone ever heard of an oil related failure of a motorcycle engine? I haven't so it seems like it isn't really that big a deal. BMW says to use 20-50 so if it says that on the bottle you should be good to go.

 

Yes, my Dad had a 380 triple (Kaw, as I recall) that died of oil starvation due to blockage of one of the oil lines. Excessive heat led to coking that blocked a line - at least that was our asessment.

 

My uncle burned up a Honda 250 Dream during a ride from Minneapolis to Washington. His destination was Seattle, but the bike died in eastern Washington. Probably due to the oil thermally breaking down.

 

I am new to BMWs, so I don't know about and oil failures on them. My cousin has a K, and has made the Minneapolis to Seattle trip without failure. He currently (and probably will forever) holds the MN to WA via roads family speed record. He claims he made it across Montana (east to west) in under 5 hours, but I digress.

 

I am using synthetics. Namely Amsoil 'Severe Service' 20w-50. I like the red color in the sight glass.

 

The manual does recommend 20W-50 for most temperature ranges. There is a chart, but as I recall it is something like 0F to over 80F. (I am sure someone will correct me if I am incorrect.)

 

313-Matt

[ericfoerster]

OK...I just have to do it

 

[RFW]

I use the automotive stuff.

 

NO!! BMW has clearly stated that the standard automotive oils do not contain enough ZDDP additive to protect against extreme wear conditions. ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate) is an extreme pressure additive that in recent years has been reduced in normal automotive oils. BMW has stated (and I can quote the Service Bulletin if necessary) that oils with the latest SJ and later specifications are not acceptable, and may cause voiding of the warranty.

 

They give a number of choices, and one economical one is to use so-called "Heavy Duty" oils. This means basically "Diesel oils". Such as Shell's Rotella-T or Chevron's Dello 400.

 

I spoke at length with a senior Chevron chemist, who verified that their Dello 400 has higher levels of ZDDP than normal car oils now have.

 

For several years I have used Dello 400 15W-40 on my K100. It is relatively inexpensive, and works just fine year-round. Note that this is the type of oil that allows big diesel rigs to go 100,000 + miles between changes. This is good stuff! The only problem is that Chevron only sells it at truck stops and keylock stations.

 

Bob.

[Marek]

Here are three links to motorcycle oil questions:

http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/oilreport.html

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

 

I think they answer all questions and from there you just need to make up your mind as to what YOU want to do.

 

Mark

[russell_bynum]

NO!! BMW has clearly stated that the standard automotive oils do not contain enough ZDDP additive to protect against extreme wear conditions. ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate) is an extreme pressure additive that in recent years has been reduced in normal automotive oils. BMW has stated (and I can quote the Service Bulletin if necessary) that oils with the latest SJ and later specifications are not acceptable, and may cause voiding of the warranty.

 

Hmmm. I've seen plenty of oil analysis reports from Oilheads running Mobil 1, and the reports never seemed to indicate any problems.

[Waltman]

I cannot believe serious, dedicated, long time riders who care for their ride, would even think of using anything else except stuff specifically made for bikes . These guys need their heads retorqued and their bikes taken away. Tolerances in a motorcycle engine are way different than those of a cage, specially in a bike with no radiator.

[russell_bynum]

I cannot believe serious, dedicated, long time riders who care for their ride, would even think of using anything else except stuff specifically made for bikes . These guys need their heads retorqued and their bikes taken away. Tolerances in a motorcycle engine are way different than those of a cage, specially in a bike with no radiator.

 

Got any facts to back that up?

 

I don't mind using something special if there's a reason for it. But if there's no reason for it, then I'm going to use whatever's most convenient/cheapest/etc.

[eaglemike]

Has anyone ever heard of an oil related failure of a motorcycle engine? I haven't so it seems like it isn't really that big a deal. BMW says to use 20-50 so if it says that on the bottle you should be good to go.

 

No, not yet...... I know of a couple of brain failures, that led to what might be comsidered an oil failure. Ex: after the last KLR tech day here in Julian, a guy in a hurry forgot to torque his drain plug. He got about 60 miles, the engine stopped. He let it cool, and called me. I sent a guy w/oil and a spare drain plug. The bike started and ran - he's still riding! We had filled it with delo 400, I don't know if any oil will do that, but I do trust the delo. It's available at the local costco for less than $40 for 6 gallons.

 

So, it's almost always (or is always) the loose nut behind the bars........

 

all the best,

 

Mike

[313_Matt]

I cannot believe serious, dedicated, long time riders who care for their ride, would even think of using anything else except stuff specifically made for bikes ... Tolerances in a motorcycle engine are way different than those of a cage, specially in a bike with no radiator.

 

Well, I have a couple of thoughts here.

 

Bike oil is normally made for an engine combined with gears and a wet clutch. So Japanese/English/?? bike oil is one funny creature: it is designed to be everything to every part - engine oil, gear oil, AND to help the clutch grab. The beemer is more like a car, but uses the oil as coolant. So you would want an oil that works well for cars, but is slicker and has a broader viscosity range... like ... ummm ... ahh ... what has that again?

 

You mentioned tolerances. Ok, assuming that the root sum squared (or math stack, or VSS, or whatever is en vogue this week) is actually tighter for the boxter, in my mind you again need an oil with a broader viscosity range: thicker at hot temps, and slicker at low temps leading you down the same path again... synth.

 

At least that is my opinion...

 

313-Matt

 

ps - Woo-Hoo, an Oil Thread!

[Wooster]

Say Matt,

 

About your uncle's Kawasaki triple, I'm thinking that's two stroke and an entirely different ball game.

In 1978, I agreed to resurrect Silver City librarian's 350cc Kawasaki triple in exchange for western dance lessons; ignition coil was bike's problem, two left feet was mine.

Kawasaki rocked the "go fast straight" world with their 500cc two stroke triple (1970 or so) then expanded line to 350 & 750 cc triples. All were known for extreme acceleration and squirrely handling.

 

Wooster w/recollections of "step together, step touch, step touch"

[313_Matt]

Say Matt,

 

About your uncle's Kawasaki triple, I'm thinking that's two stroke and an entirely different ball game.

 

The 380 Triple was my Dad's. I'll have to give the old man a call tonight and ask him about it. I don't remember it being a 2-stroke, but I have been wrong many times before. I do remember it had an oil pan and oil tubes up to the heads for the cams. I'll get back to you...

 

313-Matt

[eaglemike]

Suzuki had a really great little 380 triple 2 stroke. It was one of the last generation Suzuki street 2 strokes. I used to drool all over those.....along with the 500 and 750 triples. Very, very smooth, the 380 is/was.

 

all the best,

 

Mike

[russell_bynum]

Bike oil is normally made for an engine combined with gears and a wet clutch. So Japanese/English/?? bike oil is one funny creature: it is designed to be everything to every part - engine oil, gear oil, AND to help the clutch grab.

 

Funny thing...my CBR600RR (shares oil with engine, gearbox, and clutch) uses regular old 10w40...though the change intervals are much more frequent...most likely due to contamination from clutch debris in the oil.

 

I honestly want some answers here. If I'm an idiot for running Mobil 1 car oil in my bike, I want to know...and I want to know why. I'm a cheap bastard, but I'll happily spend a bit more when it makes sense. For example, a while back someone did a good review of the various oil filters and determined that the BMW Filter (actually made by Mahle) was a superior filter. So, I bought a bunch of Mahle filters.

 

If this oil thing is for real, I want to know about it, but I'm not interested in Bullsh*t.

[Bill J]

I cannot believe serious, dedicated, long time riders who care for their ride, would even think of using anything else except stuff specifically made for bikes . These guys need their heads retorqued and their bikes taken away. Tolerances in a motorcycle engine are way different than those of a cage, specially in a bike with no radiator.

 

I care for my ride; I just don't buy all the marketing hype or fear mongering when it comes to motor oil. As I mentioned in last week's oil thread, I'm waiting for someone to attribute worn rings, piston sleeves or any other wear to using the "wrong" oil. I'll get religion when I start hearing credible oil failure stories. On the other hand I've heard plenty of stories of R-bikes that ran a bazillion miles on automotive dino oil.

 

I AM pretty religious about regular changes and maintaining the oil level, though.

[RFW]

I cannot believe serious, dedicated, long time riders who care for their ride, would even think of using anything else except stuff specifically made for bikes . These guys need their heads retorqued and their bikes taken away. Tolerances in a motorcycle engine are way different than those of a cage, specially in a bike with no radiator.

 

Actually, that completely false. The engine tolerances in a typical 1000 to 1200CC BMW are much the same as any smaller displacement car motor. This is especially true for the K-bikes and oilheads, and should be pretty obvious to anyone who has rebuilt both types of motors. Piston clearances? Much the same. Main and rod bearing clearances? Ditto. And so on. Just try to name a specific component that is "way tighter toleranced" than a 2 liter car. You'll be hard pressed to come up with anything significant.

 

Bike oils are unique in several ways:

 

- They are absurdly expensive.

- They do not have the friction reducing additives that cause clutch slippage, but with BMW dry clutches, this is irrelivant.

- They are designed to withstand the high shear caused by being thrashed by the gears in the gearbox, but again, with a BMW (except for the K1200S) this is also irrelivant.

- They have higher levels of ZDDP than car-specific oils, but you can get that a hell of a lot cheaper by using a "Heavy Duty" oil like Rotella-T or Delo 400.

 

Bob.

[Waltman]

...- They are absurdly expensive...

 

Not quite. I last got 4 qts Castrol oil for the price of 3, got $4.00 rebate and got a free cap on top of it. Total price: $0.00.

[Wooster]

I am using synthetics. Namely Amsoil 'Severe Service' 20w-50. I like the red color in the sight glass.

 

Coincidentally, I've just acquired four qts of amsoil 20/50 synthetic via trade and will look forward to seeing red in sight glass soon. Funny, the amsoil containers say something like "V-Twin Oil"; I hope no tatoo is needed !

 

Years ago, bike companies marketed different motors; in the sixites honda was sole Japanese company w/four strokes (and zero two strokes), with suzuki, yamaha, kawasaki and bridgestone (they didn't last) producing only two stroke bikes. So, it was news when suzuki, yamaha and kawasaki transitioned to four strokes (early to mid 70s); to lesser degree, it was news when honda first marketed a two stroke (elsinore mx bike).

Lastly, I vaguely recall using synthetic two stroke oil in my '83 husquavarna; I think it was billed as "cleaner burning".

BTW, my imminent amsoil will be first time for me with pure synthetics (did use earlier edition of golden spectro, a blend).

 

Wooster

[russell_bynum]

Actually, that completely false. The engine tolerances in a typical 1000 to 1200CC BMW are much the same as any smaller displacement car motor. This is especially true for the K-bikes and oilheads, and should be pretty obvious to anyone who has rebuilt both types of motors. Piston clearances? Much the same. Main and rod bearing clearances? Ditto. And so on. Just try to name a specific component that is "way tighter toleranced" than a 2 liter car. You'll be hard pressed to come up with anything significant.

 

Bike oils are unique in several ways:

 

- They are absurdly expensive.

- They do not have the friction reducing additives that cause clutch slippage, but with BMW dry clutches, this is irrelivant.

- They are designed to withstand the high shear caused by being thrashed by the gears in the gearbox, but again, with a BMW (except for the K1200S) this is also irrelivant.

- They have higher levels of ZDDP than car-specific oils, but you can get that a hell of a lot cheaper by using a "Heavy Duty" oil like Rotella-T or Delo 400.

 

OK...first your say that there's really no difference in the tolerances between bike and car engines. Then you say we need the HD oils with the extra ZDDP.

 

Which is it? And if we need the oils with the extra ZDDP, then why don't the oil analysis reports of Mobil 1 automotive synthetic oil used in Oilheads indicate excessive wear?

 

I'm not trying to dispute your claim...I'm just trying to understand it.

[BUSTED]

Engine builders, a Mobil 1 tech in 1996, and a metallurgist I have talked to agree on a point I asked them about. By the time the "extra ZDDP" would become most effective as an oil additive you would have already suffered a catastrophic engine failure.

[russell_bynum]

By the time the "extra ZDDP" would become most effective as an oil additive you would have already suffered a catastrophic engine failure.

 

From what?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

OK...first your say that there's really no difference in the tolerances between bike and car engines. Then you say we need the HD oils with the extra ZDDP.

 

Which is it? And if we need the oils with the extra ZDDP, then why don't the oil analysis reports of Mobil 1 automotive synthetic oil used in Oilheads indicate excessive wear?

 

It's been a long time since I saw the article, but here's what I recall:

 

My understanding of the problem is that it's not related to tolerances per se, but rather to the cam lobes and buckets. Supposedly on motorcycles, three factors come into play:

 

1. packaging and weight constraints dictate that the cam lobes be built on small base circles.

 

2. The lobe profile is typically more aggressive than in a car, i.e. for a given RPM, the motorcycle valve is shoved open more rapidly than that of a car.

 

3. Motorcycle engines typically cruise at higher RPM's than a car; the piston/rings might be perfectly happy (due to a shorter stroke length), but at high revs there's nothing you can do to make life easier for the valvetrain.

 

These factors result in high contact pressures between the lobe and the bucket, higher than what's seen in your average car engine. Thus the need for extreme pressure additives like ZDDP. The long-term risk of using SJ-rated oils in a bike engine is scuffed cam lobes and buckets; once you wear through the hardened surface layers, the lobe gets ground down to a nub in a big hurry.

 

I had heard that when SJ oil first hit the market, some smaller cars (where the cam lobe/bucket loading approached that of motorcycles) had this exact same problem before the engineers caught on to the need for more robust valvetrain design.

 

As to why you're not seeing it in the oil analysis...it's possible the problem is not as bad as was initially feared? Also, <speculation> I think maybe it's a long term thing...i.e. your RT's camshaft will need replacing after 50,000 miles instead of 200,000 miles, so you wouldn't see scary metal levels in the analysis of any given batch of oil.

[BUSTED]

From whatever. Unless you let the engine run without oil, it woudn't be an oil related failure. The engineer told me that the ZDDP additive works with metal to metal surfaces to prevent galling from excessive heat, the heat range of extremely high temps far above even hot operating temps. If the oil pump failed the ZDDP would protect the surfaces longer, certainly not forever. So for the extra ZDDP to be of help you would need to run the motor out of oil or have a mechanical oilpump failure thus preventing lubrication. BMW's are not known to be prone of oil pump failure and the extra ZDDP is unnecessary. In oil thread analysis reports around the internet and magazines I've read there is doubt that Mobil 1 in a court case would lose to BMW over whether or not the amount of ZDDP in their oil caused a failure.

[russell_bynum]

Thanks Mitch, that's the kind of info I was looking for.

 

So....based on that, it would actually make sense to use the same "heavy-duty" stuff I use in the CTD on the bikes, right?

 

One thing still bugs me about this...surely people have been using regular car oil in BMW motorcycles long enough that we'd be seeing failures like premature cam failure by now, right?

[smiller]

Another confusing issue is that one of the primary reasons (or so I believe) that SG/SH oils are recommended over SJ is because the latter is required to have lower levels of ZDDP to avoid possible contamination of the catalytic converter. But... just about all automotive oils produced in the last several years (including all automotive versions of Mobil One, as well as all the diesel oils) are rated SJ (or now, SL.) So none of these can be used in a motorcycle? Further complicating the issue is an analysis I saw (looking for the link to post) that indicated there was no significant difference in the ZDDP level found in SH-rated Mobil One motorcycle oils and the SJ-rated Mobil One automotive oils. Also, isn't SJ-rated oil specified as being OK in the hexheads? None of this really adds up. The (admittedly unscientific) conclusion I tend to draw is that the concern is pretty negligible, if it exists at all. I doubt that there would be the slightest difference in engine or component life between any 'motorcycle' oil and any high-quality automotive oil (such as Mobil One or the HD diesel oils) regardless whether the latter carries an 'SJ' designation or not... and I'd stake my engine on it. Actually I have.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

So....based on that, it would actually make sense to use the same "heavy-duty" stuff I use in the CTD on the bikes, right?

 

I can't say for certain. I suspect "heavy duty" does not mean anything with regard to the quantity of EP additives; instead it likely means that the oil includes high levels of the additives that are meant to deal with combustion by-products. If it's for diesel engines, then it may even be further customized to deal with levels of soot that are not found in gasoline engines. Those additives will extend the life of the oil under sustained high power output (e.g. OTR trucks), but they won't help with the boundary-lubrication problems I described earlier.

 

One thing still bugs me about this...surely people have been using regular car oil in BMW motorcycles long enough that we'd be seeing failures like premature cam failure by now, right?

 

Speculating again:

Maybe it's not such a big deal with the boxer engine? Its displacement isn't a whole lot less than the smallest cars, it doesn't rev as high as your average crotchrocket, and its peak torque isn't that high compared to displacement (meaning it's not breathing as well as it could be made to, which in turn may mean that the cam lobe profile is not as aggressive as your average crotchrocket).

 

I'll dig this paper out of the library next week and see if it's got anything useful to say; it's dated '96, and I think that's about the time that SH oil was introduced, which is when people started asking questions.

[smiller]

Maybe it's not such a big deal with the boxer engine?

 

Which is another cogent point. 'Motorcycle' oils are touted as being tailored for conditions common in a motorcycle application, including:

 

High rpm operation - Except that the boxer engines do not operate anywhere near the speeds of most high-perf motorcycle engines... in fact, their redline is closer to a high perf car engine.

 

Protection of a wet clutch - Except that boxers do not have a wet clutch.

 

Stand up better to shared engine/transmission applications - Except that the boxers do not share their engine and transmission oil.

 

Plus higher ZDDP levels may be acceptable in motorcycle applications because there usually is no catalytic converter to harm - Except in a boxer there usually is.

 

It seems equally possible that there may be disadvantages in using an oil that is tailored to support the above characteristics when none are present in the boxer application. Why assume that a motorcycle-specific oil is really the best solution without also considering the operating conditions?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

It seems equally possible that there may be disadvantages in using an oil that is tailored to support the above characteristics when none are present in the boxer application. Why assume that a motorcycle-specific oil is really the best solution without also considering the operating conditions?

 

Ummm...because the guys that designed and tested the engine did, in fact, consider the operating conditions, and decided that a motorcycle-specific oil is really the best solution?

[smiller]

Ummm...because the guys that designed and tested the engine did, in fact, consider the operating conditions, and decided that a motorcycle-specific oil is really the best solution?

Well, that is kind of a pat answer that frequently comes up in these types of discussions, but does the manufacturer's recommendation really override all other considerations? People who manufacture motorcycle-specific oils tend to recommend them, but lots of people recommend lots of things for lots of reasons and in my mind it's appropriate to be skeptical if a particular recommendation seems to conflict with other known information. I noted several of those conflicts in this thread and considering your background I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about them, but I think 'because BMW recommended it' falls a little short of a convincing counter-argument.

[Marek]

 

Ummm...because the guys that designed and tested the engine did, in fact, consider the operating conditions, and decided that a motorcycle-specific oil is really the best solution?

 

Mitch

 

If that would be the reason enough to do anything there would be no conversation. We would use just one kind of oil, one spark plug one tire etc. I think mfg's have a vested interest in promoting certain product and that's what they do. I'm not sure that you follow all of BMW recommendations.

 

Mark

[RFW]

From whatever. Unless you let the engine run without oil, it woudn't be an oil related failure. The engineer told me that the ZDDP additive works with metal to metal surfaces to prevent galling from excessive heat, the heat range of extremely high temps far above even hot operating temps. If the oil pump failed the ZDDP would protect the surfaces longer, certainly not forever. So for the extra ZDDP to be of help you would need to run the motor out of oil or have a mechanical oilpump failure thus preventing lubrication. BMW's are not known to be prone of oil pump failure and the extra ZDDP is unnecessary. In oil thread analysis reports around the internet and magazines I've read there is doubt that Mobil 1 in a court case would lose to BMW over whether or not the amount of ZDDP in their oil caused a failure.

 

Somewhat correct, as far as it goes. ZDDP is an extreme pressure additive. It does not significantly protect against loss of oil pressure, at least not for more than a few seconds longer than if none were there. Nothing will. Once you lose the hydrodynamic film of oil in the bearings, the result is metal on metal, and an engine that is toast real fast. Bearings without oil do not "gall". They destroy themselves almost instantly.

 

ZDDP will effectively do NOTHING to protect to any significant degree against oil pump failure. That is NOT why it is in the oil!

 

The purpose of ZDDP is to protect against MOMENTARY oil film failure, such as can occur under momentary extreme loads, or even when starting the engine.

 

"Extreme heat" has nothing to do with ZDDP protection, unless you mean the very local extreme heat that results from a momentary metal on metal situation.

 

Remember that it isn't the ZDDP that does anything directly. The protection results from the decomposition of ZDDP, into a zinc-rich film on the affected bearing areas. This decomosition is locally caused by the extreme heat resulting from metal-on-metal contact. High engine heat or high oil temperature is utterly irrelivant.

 

As far as "court cases" are concerned, this is absurd! It would cost you FAR more money to go to court, than it would to repair a motor damaged by excessive wear that MAY be due to incorrect oil.

 

What I find amusing here are those who think their opinions on this matter, which are mostly based on something they read somewhere on the internet, carry more weight than BMW's research that is done by qualified engineers, who actually understand something about the subject.

 

Sure, you can get away with ordinary car oils in almost all situations. What BMW has said (and I have actually discussed this at length with the Canadian BMW technical guy) is that they cannot guarantee that car oil will protect against EVERY situation. He was NOT referring to oil pump failure here. No one cares a rat's you-know-what what kind of oil you were using, if the engine is toast because the oil pump shaft broke!

 

Considering that you can buy an approved "Heavy Duty" oil such as Rotella-T or Delo400 at much the same price as ordinary car oils, why the hell would you take a chance on car oils?

 

Bob.

[RFW]

Another confusing issue is that one of the primary reasons (or so I believe) that SG/SH oils are recommended over SJ is because the latter is required to have lower levels of ZDDP to avoid possible contamination of the catalytic converter. But... just about all automotive oils produced in the last several years (including all automotive versions of Mobil One, as well as all the diesel oils) are rated SJ (or now, SL.) So none of these can be used in a motorcycle? Further complicating the issue is an analysis I saw (looking for the link to post) that indicated there was no significant difference in the ZDDP level found in SH-rated Mobil One motorcycle oils and the SJ-rated Mobil One automotive oils. Also, isn't SJ-rated oil specified as being OK in the hexheads? None of this really adds up. The (admittedly unscientific) conclusion I tend to draw is that the concern is pretty negligible, if it exists at all. I doubt that there would be the slightest difference in engine or component life between any 'motorcycle' oil and any high-quality automotive oil (such as Mobil One or the HD diesel oils) regardless whether the latter carries an 'SJ' designation or not... and I'd stake my engine on it. Actually I have.

 

The lower ZDDP content is in fact legislated. The only way that an SJ oil can have no lower content than its SG or SH prececessor, is because the SG/SH oils already had a lower-than-legal-maximuum amount.

 

As far as the whole thing being confusing is concerned, it most certainly is.

 

Bob.

[russell_bynum]

Considering that you can buy an approved "Heavy Duty" oil such as Rotella-T or Delo400 at much the same price as ordinary car oils, why the hell would you take a chance on car oils?

 

Bob,

Can you post the service bulliten(s) where this was mentioned?

[RFW]

Considering that you can buy an approved "Heavy Duty" oil such as Rotella-T or Delo400 at much the same price as ordinary car oils, why the hell would you take a chance on car oils?

 

Bob,

Can you post the service bulliten(s) where this was mentioned?

 

Sure. I've attached it (2 sheets) to this post. Note that although this bulletin is dated in 1998, I had an extended conversation with the BMW Canada technical guy about this about 2 years ago, and he assured me it was still "in force" at that time.

 

I can't figure out how to get the second page of this bulletin attached as well. Basically, it says nothing important except to finish the sentence on the first page. So I have attached only the first page, and here is the relevant infothat appears on page 2....

 

The complete last sentence reads....

 

"....as with most prior API specifications."

 

Then it is sighed by "Frank Stevens, After Sales Manager, Motorcycle Group".

 

and "Pat Raymond, Service Organization Manager".

 

Bob.

[smiller]

So that's it then. No Mobile 1 automotive oil, no Rotella, no Delo, no Group III or IV synthetics that carry an SJ rating... all of these are insufficient to meet the needs of a boxer engine. These oils may be excellent choices for just about any high-performance automobile in existence but will not provide sufficient protection for BMW motorcycles.

 

But Mobile 1 motorcycle oils have the same levels of phosphorus and zinc as their SJ-rated automotive 15-50 oil... so I would have to suppose that the Mobil 1 motorcycle oils are also inadequate. Hey, wait a minute, the non-synthetic BMW oils have lower levels of phosphorus and zinc that Mobil 1 SJ automotive oil so I would suppose the non-synthetic BMW oils must be inadequate as well... guess BMW forgot to note that in the service bulletin. And, as you may remember and as is noted in the linked article BMW went on to say that SJ-rated oils were OK if they also carried an SG/SH designation... which of course makes no sense at all since any SJ-rated oil is required to have lower levels of the additives in question.

 

I am not employed by BMW so I would assume that I am not among those you consider to 'actually know what they're talking about', but I do have some common sense. There is a slightly larger volume of information available on this subject than the one piece of paper from BMW that you cite and as far as I can tell none of it supports BMW's opinion. Clearly, some SJ-rated oils may have lower levels of additives than desired but just as clearly there are several SJ-rated oils that should be quite acceptable, and in fact carry more of the critical additives than some BMW oils. In light of this do you not consider it reasonable to be somewhat skeptical of BMW's assertion?

[Crash]

WOW! you guys sure know how to confuse me! With all this different information and fancy acronims. I think the marketing people at BMW and the oil companies are laughing their asses off at us. The horizontally opposed air cooled engine design has been around for a very long time the materials, design and manfacturing have only improved over the years. I bet we could drive these motors on any 20/50 detergent motor oil available today.

I ran the Mobil 1 V twin oil in mine for 8,000 miles this year. I noticed my engine ran quieter no valve noise & I only added .5 quarts of oil during this time versus .5 quarts per 1000 miles using the BMW oil. The fuel mileage stayed the same at about 45 MPG.

I will try the Mobil 1 extended performance 15/50 this time hoping that it will give me slightly easier starting this winter.

Good luck out there and thanks for your replies.

[RFW]

So that's it then. No Mobile 1 automotive oil, no Rotella, no Delo, no Group III or IV synthetics that carry an SJ rating... all of these are insufficient to meet the needs of a boxer engine. These oils may be excellent choices for just about any high-performance automobile in existence but will not provide sufficient protection for BMW motorcycles.

 

Not sure where you get that from.

 

Both Rotella-T and Delo400 meet the "HD" classification stated in BMW's Service Buletin that I posted earlier. So do other "HD" oils such as...

 

Castrol RX Super 15w40

Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40

Penzoil Long-Life 15w40

Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40

SuperTech 2000 15w40 (from WalMart, no less!)

Valvoline All Fleet 15w40

Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40

 

So do many motorcycle-specific oils (including BMW's) albeit at a much higher price than the HD oils.

 

The message here is that any of the above HD rated oils clearly meet the requirements stated by BMW (read the service bulletin posted earlier). Not only that, these oils meet the requirements at an affordable price.

 

Bob.

[Nevets]

Hope this is not considered a hijack... Since it appears you guys know what your talking about, I'd like your opinion on Castrol Syntec Blend, 20W-50, API Service SL.

The container also says:

"Exceeds API Service SL/SJ/SH, Japanese engine wear test, ACEA: A3 Meets the engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF-3/GF-2 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils"

 

Hope it's OK, since I've been running it since the last change, and it is definetly using less oil. Also, since I got it on sale, I have quite a bit more stored in the garage.

[Mr. Frank]

An interesting observation is that the new Mobil I 15W50 Extended Interval oil has a beefed up additive package (anti acid and anti wear) that looks like what's found in many of the better motorcycle oils. An Internet BMW Rider friend sent it to a lab for testing, and that was his conclusion. I've compared the numbers to data in MCN, and that is my conclusion as well.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

People who manufacture motorcycle-specific oils tend to recommend them...

 

The recommendation here does not come from the oil manufacturer; it comes from the engine manufacturer.

 

From Mark (Marek):

I think mfg's have a vested interest in promoting certain product and that's what they do.

 

If you were a MC manufacturer, wouldn't you like to be able to brag about lower maintenance costs, because your bikes can use SJ motor oil that the average dude can buy for a buck a quart at K Mart?

 

And in fact, the service bulletin that Bob (RFW) posted opens up an owner's range of choices quite a bit, to include a number of oils that are not sold by motorcycle dealers. This suggests that profit is not the motive behind the limited recommendations of oil types.

 

FWIW, BMW isn't saying that SJ oils definitely WILL destroy your engine; all they're saying is that they can't promise SJ oils WON'T destroy your engine. IOW, you try them at your own risk. Basically, you're treading into unknown territory - conducting field research - if you deviate from what the manufacturer knows will work.

 

So that's it then. No Mobile 1 automotive oil, no Rotella, no Delo, no Group III or IV synthetics that carry an SJ rating... all of these are insufficient to meet the needs of a boxer engine. These oils may be excellent choices for just about any high-performance automobile in existence but will not provide sufficient protection for BMW motorcycles.

 

Again, nothing this absolute. BMW's exact wording, from the service bulletin:

 

This latest API classification does not guaranty the required level of wear protective additives...

 

IOW, they may work, but you won't get anyone to make any promises.

[smiller]

So that's it then. No Mobile 1 automotive oil, no Rotella, no Delo, no Group III or IV synthetics that carry an SJ rating... all of these are insufficient to meet the needs of a boxer engine. These oils may be excellent choices for just about any high-performance automobile in existence but will not provide sufficient protection for BMW motorcycles.

 

Not sure where you get that from.

 

Both Rotella-T and Delo400 meet the "HD" classification stated in BMW's Service Buletin that I posted earlier. So do other "HD" oils such as...

 

Castrol RX Super 15w40

Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40

Penzoil Long-Life 15w40

Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40

SuperTech 2000 15w40 (from WalMart, no less!)

Valvoline All Fleet 15w40

Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40

 

So do many motorcycle-specific oils (including BMW's) albeit at a much higher price than the HD oils.

 

The message here is that any of the above HD rated oils clearly meet the requirements stated by BMW (read the service bulletin posted earlier). Not only that, these oils meet the requirements at an affordable price.

As you say, 'read the service bulletin posted earlier.' I get that from the line in the service bulletin that states "The API specification SJ is not approved for use in any BMW motorcycle" (their emphasis.) All of the oils you listed carry an SJ rating, as does virtually all other automotive oils currently on the market. And there is no official industry 'HD' rating... anybody can use that tag if they like, it is meaningless. Check a bottle of Mobil 1, or Rotella, etc. There is no 'HD' printed anywhere on the bottle because they know that there is no such thing as an HD rating. Now you do too.

 

Mitch, I know that the engine manufacturer sets the oil requirements, and I was considering BMW to be the manufacturer of the oil when yes, technically they are just the vendor, and I considered an oil 'not guaranteed' to be sufficient as unacceptable even though BMW did not specifically state that they were unacceptable, rather they provided only a very strong and obvious implication. You can note whatever semantics here but regardless it is clear that BMW clearly recommends SG/SH oils over SJ. The question is whether there is any logical or factual basis for this given that many SJ oils seem to meet all of the qualifications hinted at in BMW's notice. There is a very long list of things BMW won't guarantee and I'm not sure that a lack of a guarantee on their part constitutes much evidence of anything. IOW, BMW's service bulletin seems to be kind of 'out there' given that there is a large body of information contradicting it and as far as I can see no objective data supporting it (other that that they won't guarantee something), and so I would say that makes it not really very useful or worthy of notice. I think we got off on this tangent because Russell was asking if there was any factual basis for BMW's comments and I can't see how anyone (least of all BMW) has provided that yet.

[RFW]

Hope this is not considered a hijack... Since it appears you guys know what your talking about, I'd like your opinion on Castrol Syntec Blend, 20W-50, API Service SL.

The container also says:

"Exceeds API Service SL/SJ/SH, Japanese engine wear test, ACEA: A3 Meets the engine protection requirements of ILSAC GF-3/GF-2 for API Certified Gasoline Engine Oils"

 

Hope it's OK, since I've been running it since the last change, and it is definetly using less oil. Also, since I got it on sale, I have quite a bit more stored in the garage.

 

If it states it meets SJ and SL, then it is not approved by BMW. The fact that it claims to meet SG and SH, is only because a bizzare part of the API ruling that makes (for example) an SL oil automatically backward compatible with previous types, even though it does not contain the same amount of ZDDP and other snake oil that (say) and SG oil contained.

 

The reason for this is that the level of ZDDP in an oil is stated as a maximum amount. Therefore an oil that contains none at all could technically qualify.

 

Typically, manufacturers tended to put close to the maximum allowed in the oil, but not always. Since ZDDP content is what BMW is so nervous about, you should be wary of using an SL oil, since this type is allowed a MUCH lower maximum of ZDDP than HD oils, or the old SG/SH oils.

 

Bob.