Cager Hands Free Phone Requirements - Unintended Consequences?

[Glenn Reed]

Here in MD drivers will be required to go "hands free" to call on their cell phones in October.

 

Since I have taken up riding again, and spending way too much time here, I have been noticing how many cagers are on the phone when in my vicinity. Not really news, but became more relevant to me, since we can probably all agree that it adds to driver distraction. I have found that I pay more attention to these drivers, since they aren't going to be paying as much attention to me.

 

The thought occurs that we riders will lose this visual cue when the cagers are required to go to hands free. For those riding in states where such regulations are already in place, what, if any, differences have you noticed? Are you still able to get some idea that these folks are on the phone? Are there any other clues you have that give you the heads up that their attention may be divided?

 

Any other issues not raised in my question?

 

Thanks.

[ltljohn]

Watch for people talking with their hands.

[Paul Mihalka]

Simply expect them doing stupid things whether they are on the phone or not.

[Firefight911]

Simply expect them doing stupid things whether they are on the phone or not.

 

Yep. Oh, and if you think a law on paper will change the habits of cagers you're fooling yourself! CA has this law and it has not changed anything.

[StuGotz]

Simply expect them doing stupid things whether they are on the phone or not.

 

Yep. Oh, and if you think a law on paper will change the habits of cagers you're fooling yourself! CA has this law and it has not changed anything.

 

Perhaps if you upped the penalty, we might be able to make cagers comply with the law. A 20 dollar fine is just a joke...I really love the one's that hold the phone out and talk into it, like it's ok...

 

This is a big business issue. Corporations stand to lose millions, if not billions over a stricter law. It'll never happen. A token fine takes care of the legalities...that's all is was EVER about.

 

Russell has nothing to worry about...

 

MB>

[Shaman97]

It hasn't made much of a difference in Cali. I still look for the telltale signs - way slow driver in front of a line of cars on the freeway, swerving due to texting.

 

That fine that people think is twenty bucks quickly gets inflated to ~$157 after all the bureaucratic layers have had their chomp at the feeding frenzy of fees.

 

The hands free law was a ruse. It's still distracted driving, no matter how you look at it, and from time to time, I'm guilty of it too, sad to say.

[Boffin]

 

Perhaps if you upped the penalty, we might be able to make cagers comply with the law. A 20 dollar fine is just a joke...I really love the one's that hold the phone out and talk into it, like it's ok...

 

This is a big business issue. Corporations stand to lose millions, if not billions over a stricter law. It'll never happen. A token fine takes care of the legalities...that's all is was EVER about.

 

Russell has nothing to worry about...

 

MB>

 

In the UK there is a fixed penalty of £60, with 3 points on your licence (get 12 and you are banned). This will impact insurance costs too. Contest the matter - or if you are taken to court for other reasons - and the fine can be up to £1000. If you are involved in an accident your phone records can be used to prove you were on the phone (or texting) at the time and the fine is higher and you could go to prison.

 

None of this seems to have had any impact on phone use.

 

Andy

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

You might enjoy this:

 

Hands Free Safe Drivers

 

Or you might be horrified.

[russell_bynum]

Simply expect them doing stupid things whether they are on the phone or not.

 

Yup. Stop relying on other people to preserve your wellbeing. Take responsibility for yourself. It doesn't matter if they're on the phone, texting, watching a movie, having sex, adjusting the radio, or handing a bottle to their screaming kid in the back seat...or if they just suck at driving.

 

If you take responsibility for your own wellbeing, it doesn't matter what the other drivers do.

[Horse]

French bike safety / nobile phone ad:

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2010/06/french-motorcycle-safety-videos.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2008/06/call-of-wild.html

 

http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/2008/12/mobile-phonication.html

 

 

[EffBee]

Hands-free is BS. I admit to having done all of the below in order to comply with the law here in WA. I do it all differently now.

 

I'm driving and want to make a call. I have to:

1. Let go of the steering wheel with my right hand

2. Feel blindly for the latch of the console compartment between the seats and open it.

3. Take my eyes off the road and give them a few seconds to adjust to the relative darkness of the cabin in order to find the Bluetooth ear piece amid my spare sunglasses, spare change, calculator for figuring gas mileage, remote control for the gates to my condo community, etc.

4. Quickly release a "controlling grip" on steering wheel in order to transfer the BT ear piece from my right to my left hand

5. Take my left hand completely off the steering wheel in order to loop the BT ear piece over my left ear.

6. Since I always drive with sunglasses during the day, the ear piece loop always seems to go over the temples on the sunglasses, and then the ear piece won't align with my ear, so I must take both hands off the wheel in order to remove my sunglasses momentarily, hook the ear piece, then put the sunglasses back on. During this time I steer with my knee.

7. Keep my left hand off the wheel and press the ear piece into my ear to get a good seal.

8. Keep my left hand off the wheel so I can press and hold the "ON" button for the five seconds it takes for it to come on.

9. Once it has paired with the phone, I then have to serreptitiously scroll through my phone's address book, looking down at it on the passenger seat instead of at the top of the steering wheel where I could see the traffic around me, even if not my main focus.

10. Having found who I want to call, I then press the button and can finally refocus on my driving.

11. Call completed, I must let go of the steering wheel to press the "call ended" button.

12. In order to save battery, I must now take my left hand and hold the "OFF" button for the 5 seconds it takes for it to say, "Powering down."

13. Now I must take the ear piece out, which usually means the ear loop knocks my sunglasses askew, requiring repositioning by my right hand. Knee does the driving again.

14. I must temporarily release controlling grip on the steering wheel in order to transfer the ear piece from my left to my right hand.

15. With the right hand removed from the steering wheel, the the two smaller fingers holding the ear piece, I must blindly fish for the lever that lets me open the console between the seats.

16. I take my eyes off the road, give them a few seconds to adjust to the darkness of the interior cabin, and find a place in my console for my ear piece.

 

Thank heaven for the hands-free law. Whoever wrote it is my hero and I'm sure going to vote for them again, because they researched it, studied its implications and application, and made my life and those of my fellow travelers sooooooo much safer.

 

Freaking asshat worthless scumbag "vote-for-me-again-and-let-me-do-more-intelligent-things-with-your-money" politicians.

[Firefight911]

At the almost opposite end, Jamie and I each have a Parrot Bluetooth installed. It is plug and play inline with the stock stereo system.

 

1 - Left hand hits left/green button

2 - Say name you want to call

3 - Say Home, Cell, Work, etc. and that number is called

4 - Talk at normal level

5 - When done with call either do nothing or hit right/red button

 

Cost us $110 complete per car and about an hour and a half install time.

[moshe_levy]

+1 on the Parrot. In my Prius, such a system came standard with the car, and works exactly as Phil described.

 

Here in NJ, hands free has been in effect for some time. It has made absolutely no difference whatsoever. More than half the drivers you see are still talking on the hand-held, and I literally have yet to see a police officer on patrol - ever - without one glued to the side of his head. A real good example those guys set.....

 

-MKL

[Glenn Reed]

Paul and Russel,

 

I absolutely agree with your points, the cagers will get us if we let them and it's our responsibility to make sure they don't.

 

That's exactly why I asked the question, hoping for tools I can use to make my scanning more effective. By asking for the impressions of those living in areas where this has already gone into effect, I am trying to learn from their experience before this change comes here.

 

Bottom line, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of compliance, and where there is, it might mean more distractedness and not less.

 

Thanks for all the good info!

[russell_bynum]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

[Quinn]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

I guess the only reason it matters is for my personal bets. While riding I predict driver's bad behavior based on my prejudices. For instance, I bet that the guy futzing with his radio can't stay in his lane or the woman with the three small kids in the car will cut into the other lane at the last minute. So when I see someone with their hand up to their ear or gesturing wildly while driving, I predict erratic driving behavior. I win some and lose some, but it keeps me looking for those hints that let me avoid getting involved with idiots. Yeah, I should watch every car on the road, but some deserve special attention and avoidence.

 

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[bmurphypdx]

The other issue is drivers who comply with the law by pulling over to the shoulder. I now see many more drivers abruptly pulling over to the shoulder to answer a call (sometimes weaving back into traffic if they missed the call) and also abruptly pulling from the shoulder into the traffic lane when the call is done. Which is worse? They are all dangerous to me.

[Firefight911]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

I guess the only reason it matters is for my personal bets. While riding I predict driver's bad behavior based on my prejudices. For instance, I bet that the guy futzing with his radio can't stay in his lane or the woman with the three small kids in the car will cut into the other lane at the last minute. So when I see someone with their hand up to their ear or gesturing wildly while driving, I predict erratic driving behavior. I win some and lose some, but it keeps me looking for those hints that let me avoid getting involved with idiots. Yeah, I should watch every car on the road, but some deserve special attention and avoidence.

 

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I use my prejudice also. If they aren't me, they're out to kill me.

[russell_bynum]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

I guess the only reason it matters is for my personal bets. While riding I predict driver's bad behavior based on my prejudices. For instance, I bet that the guy futzing with his radio can't stay in his lane or the woman with the three small kids in the car will cut into the other lane at the last minute. So when I see someone with their hand up to their ear or gesturing wildly while driving, I predict erratic driving behavior. I win some and lose some, but it keeps me looking for those hints that let me avoid getting involved with idiots. Yeah, I should watch every car on the road, but some deserve special attention and avoidence.

 

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I use my prejudice also. If they aren't me, they're out to kill me.

 

Pretty much.

 

All of this requires a complete shift in the way you think, though. You can't think like a cager...because you're not a cager. A cager has mass and stability on their side. You don't have that. But you do have acceleration, agility, and size working for you.

 

Fighter pilots learn to use the strengths of their specific aircraft and avoid getting into situations that exploit the weaknesses of their aircraft. We should do the same.

 

But it all starts with FULLY buying into the idea that nobody is going to look out for you except for you. And you can't just give it lip-service...you have to really believe it. Once you do, your entire riding style and your approach to the situations we encounter will change.

[StuGotz]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

But you do have acceleration, agility, and size working for you.

 

 

Well, I've got two of the three....

 

MB>

[russell_bynum]

My point...don't waste time trying to figure out if they're on the phone or not. It doesn't matter.

 

 

But you do have acceleration, agility, and size working for you.

 

 

Well, I've got two of the three....

 

MB>

 

[MotorinLA]

Perhaps if you upped the penalty, we might be able to make cagers comply with the law. A 20 dollar fine is just a joke...I really love the one's that hold the phone out and talk into it, like it's ok...

 

This is a big business issue. Corporations stand to lose millions, if not billions over a stricter law. It'll never happen. A token fine takes care of the legalities...that's all is was EVER about.

 

Russell has nothing to worry about...

 

MB>

 

Base fine is $20 for the first offense. Comes out to about $142 after penalty assessments. Subsequent offense(s) within three years is a $50 fine, which should come out in the neighborhood of $300-350 after penalty assessments. Not quite as "token" as it may appear at first.

 

They still should have made it a moving violation in my opinion. That would have given it a little more substance.

[upflying]

In Ca, cagers simply drive while looking at their lap.

They also covertly have gone underground, using long hair to conceal the illicit contraband at their ear. If you ask why they were on the on the phone, they say they were scratching their ear. Most scofflaws tint their windows black so you can't see them on the phone. Right hand phone use seems to be the favorite since it takes the phone away from the left side window.

Some also hold the phone with their shoulder as they drive with their head sideways. Hands-free?

The fine is $152 here in my county.

[Francois_Dumas]

I don't have a handsfree option anymore..... I let Nina respond to the cell if it rings.

[Penforhire]

I noticed barely a dent in the normal use of hands-on phones since our law went into effect. It cracks me up when I see drivers of quite expensive cars who don't have a BT device. Heck, I used a Garmin GPS hands-free two cars ago though I enjoy proper original-equipment BT systems.

 

On the other hand, I'm not convinced BT devices improve driver attention during a call anyway.

 

Distracted driving is distracted driving. We don't need special laws, just a bit more enforcement.

[upflying]

Me thinks drivers in high income communities are more likely to offend than drivers from low income areas. Just a generalization based on personal observation. Could be the Imelda Marcos elitist syndrome or something.

Just ride and assume all driver's are distracted, By the time you can confirm a distraction its too late to do anything about it.

[BailyD]

+1 on the Parrot. In my Prius, such a system came standard with the car, and works exactly as Phil described.

 

Here in NJ, hands free has been in effect for some time. It has made absolutely no difference whatsoever. More than half the drivers you see are still talking on the hand-held, and I literally have yet to see a police officer on patrol - ever - without one glued to the side of his head. A real good example those guys set.....

 

-MKL

 

MKL,

I've been working specialized details for the past three weeks and I've seemed to have lost any concern for NOT issuing this ticket. There are so many people using it; right in front of me, ignoring me, that I've taken to stopping and issuing them all.

 

I will not use the phone while working and I hear a lot of the "I always see the police on the phone" responses. My response is; Get their car number and make a complaint/summons against them. It really drives me CRAZY when I see other cops using their phones. I agree that it sets a poor example for the public.

 

I was jogging with a co-worker the other day and we had a heated discussion about the cell phones. He used the argument that it is ok because it's the same as drinking coffee in the car. I countered that we use psycho-physical tests to determine intoxication. Drinking coffee DOES take your hands off of the wheel, but required no thought as to what your suppose to do with the cup (bring to mouth, drink). Talking while holding the phone requires a certain amount of mental concentration/distraction, along with the physical distraction of actually operating the vehicle while holding the phone. I guess we agreed to disagree (we both ran out of breath on the boardwalk!)

 

My wife and I also thought of a possible interesting study regarding the difference between talking on the phone while driving vs. talking to someone in the car while driving. Someone would have to do a detailed study of driving habits to test it though..............

 

[upflying]

+1 on the Parrot. In my Prius, such a system came standard with the car, and works exactly as Phil described.

 

Here in NJ, hands free has been in effect for some time. It has made absolutely no difference whatsoever. More than half the drivers you see are still talking on the hand-held, and I literally have yet to see a police officer on patrol - ever - without one glued to the side of his head. A real good example those guys set.....

 

-MKL

In Ca, police officers are exempt from the hands free law.

[BlueTools]

Get their car number and make a complaint/summons against them.

 

LOL

[Penforhire]

Baily, I recall a study like that was done. Maybe in Japan, IIRC. The finding was that having a conversation with a passenger was much less dangerous because they notice the same traffic circumstances you do and pause while you take care of business. Or even notices things the driver is slower to notice.

[Paul Mihalka]

I don't talk much in the car either, but it is very different. You can pay attention to what is happening around you, you can stop talking or listening on a instant.

[BailyD]

Get their car number and make a complaint/summons against them.

 

LOL

 

Blue, you can laugh but if you come into my department w/that complaint they will listen and action will be taken. If you wanted to take it further, you can just sign a ticket. Police in NJ have an exemption, but for emergency purposes only.

 

I KNOW from recent experience that a Judge made me give him my personal cell phone records (no warrant or probable cause). The driver had lied about my cell phone. I knew they wouldn't find anything, but I made it hard for their attorney and ran up the bills!

[RichEdwards]

My VW Jetta came with a great Bluetooth system. The car and phone link up automatically when I turn on the ignition, I dial with my voice, all controls are on the steering wheel, the stereo system gives the best call sound you can imagine. All cars should come with such a system.

[nrp]

I don't very often have problems with distracted drivers but just this morning a van tried to take my K1200LT out as he was right-turn-on-redding at a local intersection. Later I could see that he was on a hands-free cell phone connection.

 

I think the OP has a very valid observation that hands free devices eliminate a visual cue to other drivers.

[motoguy128]

I remember when I was little, my dad would point out bad drivers. There wer eno cell phones bakc then, but hte distracted drivers were deply involved in a conversation to hte person next to you. They wre talkign with their hands, and turning their head ot look at the passenger.

 

Some things do not cahnge as much as we think...just the tools and technology involved.

 

 

It's mostly just lack of discipline. It's possible to divide your focus so that your primary focus is on the task of driving and the secondary focus is the conversation. But, you might miss a few details in the conversation... but would you rather have the other person repeat themselves, or get into a car accident???

[Asymmetrical]

Going to 'hands free' is another example of pointless legislation by our elected representatives. See link below that refers to a 2001 study showing no difference in the accident rate between hands free and hand-held phones. (Perhaps there's something since then showing otherwise.) The problem isn't whether you hold the phone or not - it's that if you are talking on the phone, you aren't concentrating on driving. But that was politically unpalatable, so legislators passed a useless law in many jurisdictions to make it appear as if they are actually doing something.

 

http://www.newsdial.com/technology/communication/cell-phone-statistics.html

[upflying]

Agree, especially since amputees are licensed to drive with one hand (or arm) and sometimes no hands. In Ca, persons under 18 are not permitted to use a phone while driving under any circumstances, including hands free.

Regarding unattended consequences, I have noticed hand held phone and texting users are being more covert about their use. Now they just drive while looking at their lap.

[11101110]

This Might work. You would need a long enough range so the morons would give up before you got too close to them. Which I don't think would be a problem on a motorcycle. YOu could also build one yourself. That is what I was originally looking for.

[Big_Gray]

I'm pretty sure one unintended consequence is that the hands free phone makes it a lot easier to apply make-up while driving now that you don't have to hold that nuisance phone with one hand.

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

Simply expect them doing stupid things whether they are on the phone or not.

 

Always my plan.

 

 

 

[philbytx]

Of course you are !

Otherwise how you eat a donut and use the radio at the same time !

 

 

 

And I am sorry I said that Officer, honest I am !

[Ken H.]

I also understand an element of the difference is the transposition of your point of concentration in your mind during the conversation. With a conversation with a passenger your point of focus remains in the vehicle and its surrounding evolving circumstances are less detached. However with a cell phone conversation, your point of focus moves, transposes, to the (actual or perceived) location of the person you are talking too. Which is decidedly far away from the circumstances at hand controlling the vehicle.

 

Which is why hands-free laws are less effective than total cell phone conversation while driving bans. Still, IMO they are a good first step.

 

No cell phone use while driving will soon be the law of the land in all of Canada. There are only a few provinces left to get on board (including Alberta although some local jurisdictions have) and those (including Alberta) are expected to join during this fall's sessions. Fines vary from inconsequential (CA$50) to stiff (CA$500). They also carry points. There are and will be enforcement blitzes from time to time. Usually at first with only ‘education’ tickets given out. The after three months or something full on enforcement.

 

[Ken H.]

This Might work.

It’s an interesting idea, but I wonder if drivers trying to re-connect their calls, re-send their text messages, reboot the phone etc, might not be even worse. Is the cure worse than the disease?

[MotorinLA]

This Might work.

It’s an interesting idea, but I wonder if drivers trying to re-connect their calls, re-send their text messages, reboot the phone etc, might not be even worse. Is the cure worse than the disease?

 

Some sort of device that would fry any cell phone in use would be even better... Just a thought

[DiverRay]

I think they should design the phone to turn off the text when the car is started. It IS doable with today's technology, and should not cost the end user any extra money. The problem is getting the bill into congress, and then getting it passed!

[russell_bynum]

I think they should design the phone to turn off the text when the car is started. It IS doable with today's technology, and should not cost the end user any extra money. The problem is getting the bill into congress, and then getting it passed!

 

LOL. You're delusional.

 

Ignoring the question of unnecessary intrusion into our personal lives , the infuriating notion that the solution to every problem is apparently to pass more laws, and the fact that it's entirely likely and perfectly reasonable for there to be more than one person with a phone in the car and only the driver's phone would "need" to be neutered, let's just take a look at your propoasal and the suggestion that it would not cost any money:

 

1. All the car companies and all the phone companies would need to develop and agree on a standard. This takes time and resources, which means it costs money.

2. All the car companies and all the phone companies would then need to develop and test some sort of technology solution (likely a combination of hardware and software) to implement that standard. Lots more time and resources: Money.

3. Then all the car companies and all the phone companies would have to integrate this new design into their products. If you've been paying attention, you'll probably guess that this means more time and resources and therefore more money.

 

 

Some questions that would need to be answered:

How do you only impact the driver's phone?

How does the car even go about identifying the driver's phone vs any passenger's phones?

How do you disable text but not data (remember...data can be legitimately used for a number of perfectly legal purposes such as navigation and music) or voice?

How do you prevent the user from disabling this "feature"?

[Joy]

I don't know why no one has mentioned this, but the law here in California has made driving vastly more unsafe.

 

Ever since the law went into effect, I have noticed everybody texting instead of talking on the phone. Then they decided to make a law where texting while driving is illegal. Didn't help at all. The problem is it's very hard for a cop to see that you are texting while it's easy to see you talking on a cell. Now you see a bunch of people who are texting.

 

What makes it even worse is that this is totally an excuse for the cops to write tickets and generate revenue for our broke state. I see plenty of drivers doing their makeup at left turns, texting on the freeway and who are generally distracted and not paying attention who all deserve tickets, but they never seem to get any.

 

I live 3 miles from work and it generally takes 20 minutes to get there. Some days it can take 30 or 45 minutes in the car. Often along this street that doesn't move, they send out bicycle cops and they look into the windows and give people tickets for the cell phone law or texting when we're not going anywhere.

[russell_bynum]

Now you see a bunch of people who are texting.

 

And it is virtually impossible to tell if someone is texting (illegal) or doing some other (legal) function like selecting a new song on their iPhone or punching in an address in the navigation app on their Droid.

 

Most of the stories I've heard (granted, this is anecdotal and not scientific) is that most texting tickets are for texting while sitting stopped at a traffic light...which isn't remotely dangerous and the worst thing that you could do in that situation is maybe sit a few extra seconds when the light turns green.

[Ken H.]

I was reading some more about the propose new Alberta Distracted Driving Law that, should it come to pass, will make it illegal while driving to – use a cell phone, texting, reading, writing, inputting information into a GPS or other navigational system, using a camera or video recorder, personal grooming, entering information into a laptop, playing a video game (yes it is happening!) and inputting information into an MP3 player or other audio or video device.

 

First infraction (after a driver education period) being talked about is $100 fine and 6-months probation plus 2 demerit points. Second infraction is $2000 fine and 1 year probation with 6 points. (In general 14 pts. in Alberta is go before a judge and prove why you should keep your license time.)

 

What will shake out of this in this fall’s legislative session is anybody’s guess, but that’s some pretty tough initial talk. Everybody is totally sick and tired of the distracted driver problem and all the noise about ‘personal rights to operate a vehicle however I want’ is just that – noise.

 

[Quinn]

Well, as long as I can still eat, drink, and brush my teeth, then I'm fine.

 

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