Oh shiznit ...

[Spike]

Follow me with your imagination ... you transition out of an awesomely beautiful rising left hand corner caressing out the ponies and float to the right side of the lane. In 2 1/2 seconds you will be transitioning into a decently banked right hand turn with a climbing elevation change. Quickly but gently you find the left side of your lane for the transition. You are having fun, are on line, balls of feet on pegs, elbows bent and relaxed, you are simply awaiting the next 100' feet for entry. As you turn in you spot the apex and you immediately become aware that you misread what your preferred entry speed would be and you are *above* it.

 

Keeping your wits about you you continue to lead with your head, get your body as far to the inside as possible, and hold neutral throttle allowing the drive train to absorb speed. Nearly at the apex you have stabilized your line and things are generally working out well. Well, at least for the 1/2 second before the elevation change and the banking combine to squat the bike and start dragging allot of things that you would otherwise appreciate not dragging.

 

Quick, what do you do to fix the dragging problem?

 

Lets recap:

• Entry speed: Too fast
  
• Proper body position: Check*
  
• Staying loose & out of bike's way: Check
  
• On a good line: Check
  
• Throttle: Neutral
  

Think fast. It took you longer to read the recap than it took to happen in life. Tell me what you would do and I'll tell you what I did *wrong*

 

Spike

 

*This is why you aren't already on your arse headed for a bad day. Practice. Practice. Practice!

 

 

 

[lawnchairboy]

I would like to say hold neutral or slight roll on throttle and ride on through it unscathed, in reality, I think it would take all I had to not chop the throttle and stand it up, probably running across and off in the process.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I probably would have trail braked right up to the apex (point of maximum lean) and then gotten into the gas as quickly and smoothly as reasonable possible. As I approached the apex, if I still felt I was carrying too much speed, I probably would have gotten my body position even more extreme and just tried to rail on through. Not so sure how I would have handled the "gravity cavity" effect. Basically, on either of my bikes, I won't drag hard parts before I run out of tire and I haven't done that, yet. On an RT, the footpegs will fold, the front fairing has some give to it. The only real danger is the center stand and even that has some give. Let it scrape and keep doing the right stuff.

[Bill_Walker]

To fix the dragging problem, I'd hang my body off more and straighten up the bike, and maybe roll on more throttle. Assuming I had my wits about me, which is somewhat questionable of late.

 

(at least, that's what I did when it happened to me years ago on my Ducati ST4 when I started dragging the exhaust can).

[bendbill]

Another ST 1300 rider hopes this turns out OK. Both replies sound good: hang further off to bring bike slightly more upright AND roll on to unweight suspension.

 

Plan B: if you can see exit of turn, and see no traffic, you can use the left lane to widen arc or hit the ABS/linked brakes to scrub speed and then re-enter lane.

[big-t]

Quick, what do you do to fix the dragging problem?

 

 

Immediately pull into the Ducati dealer and purchase the Multistrada you should have bought in the first place?

[EffBee]

It DID happen to me, about 7 years ago, on a cool morning south of Julian in the mountains east of Sandy Eggo. As Keith Code teaches, the problem began about two corners earlier, with a bad line and too much speed. But I made it so I didn't slow down and regroup before entering THE corner.

 

As in your situation, mine also involved a right hander. I was facing a solid rock wall of mountain to the left, i.e. no runoff (which I came close to needing, as you'll see). My entry speed and line were so bad, and the corner (one I'd not ridden in a couple of years) was decreasing radius, that I used up all my safety margin, was hanging off in a big way, had my right foot pinned in place between the folding/scraping footpeg and the RT's footpeg plate (I mean the foot was literally trapped), and my knee was on the ground and couldn't be moved closer to the RT's body because of said trapped foot.

 

I crossed the double yellow line and headed for the Armco, of which I got a close personal inspection (but no contact) just as the bike apexed well past the corner's apex, and I managed to keep it upright despite some tire slippage on the debris that gathers under the Armco and in front of the Armco's wodden posts. After what seemed like an eternity, I got back across the double yellow line just as three motorcycles, ALL OF THEM BMW's, appeared from around the mountain's looming left-hander. They'd no idea what I'd just almost done, but I'm sure they thought I was an Asshat because I didn't wave. I couldn't. If I'd let go of the bars I would have exploded on my next heart pulse. In fact, I was hoping my helmet would contain the contents of my head which was about to come apart.

 

I pulled over and lied to every passing motorist for the next 15 minutes by giving them an "I'm alright" wave. I would have smoked a cigarette if I'd had one right then. And I don't smoke. The delicious pancake breakfast I'd just finished at the Julian Cafe turned to liquid and was telling me it didn't trust me any more and wanted out. It was suddenly cold, shiveringly cold. . .something I'd not felt all morning.

 

After I got myself together, I wanted to ride away, but I forced myself to go back and retake those corners at a very modest pace to see what I'd done wrong. It was amazing how innocent they looked, except for the decreasing radius corner which had nearly been my Waterloo, and even it didn't look that bad. Twice on the ride home I had to pull off I-5 and let the shaking subside. But I learned a great lesson and that is that as soon as I take one corner poorly, slow down and regroup. It has saved my hide a few times since then.

 

My foot hurt for a week. I almost went to have it x-rayed to see if I'd broken something in the squeeze. I had to repaint the belly pan on the RT. Life is a continuing education. Sometimes the lessons are free. Sometimes they come with a price. This lesson was relatively cheap, but could have come with a greater price. I've never forgotten it.

 

How'd yours turn out, Spike.

 

[steve.foote]

In that case, what I would do is keep dragging those hard parts until I completed the corner, get things back under control, pull over and cuss myself out for being such a dolt.

 

What did you do?

[OoPEZoO]

I had the exact same situation a few years ago in WV. I drug the whole right side underbelly of the bike in the corner (bodywork, center stand, and footpeg). The supension was completely bottomed out when I hit, and the outside of my boot hit the pavement just about pulling it off the footpeg. It wasn't one of those nice controlled scrapes either. It was more of a crunch/bang heavy pucker moment followed by the bike moving in a direction I didn't want it to go. When the suspension rebounded it violently threw the bike upright, and I fully expected that to be followed by a painfull highside. I saved it, and managed to stay on my side of the road but I'm not exactly sure how. I must have went into dirt bike survival mode I guess. I know I got my arse up off the seat and rode it out. By the time I finished the corner I was standing on the pegs in about a half crounched position with my left (outside) leg glued to the tank and the whole rest of my body up and over the right side side handle bar.

 

To make matters worse......I was riding two up with Danielle on the back at the time (her boot actually got pulled off the peg as well). I didn't think I was traveling too fast at entry, but the corner had a flowing rise, drop, rise pattern to it that must have matched the frequency of my speed and the apex of the turn perfectly. After the left turn rise, the drop was perfectly placed at the apex of the right hander so the bikes suspension went from fully extended to fully compressed in the fraction of a second. Add to that, the weight of a passenger and a worn suspension.........scary scary stuff.

 

After that trip, I changed a few things. Most notably was the addition of aftermarket shocks with heavy duty springs set for my weight. Since then, I have not bottomed out at all and I can't remember the last time I drug a hard part. I occationally touch something, but its more of a controlled scrape, not a bone jarring thud. Are you still running the stock suspension on your ST, or have you replaced them? If they are original, were they properly adjusted for hooning it up? I mean, if you are going in too hot, you know it, and its too late to scrub speed, there is only so much you can teach yourself to do. The obvious solution is to slow down, but thats unrealistic and a bit of Monday morning quarterbacking due to you already being comitted to entry speed before you realize the severity of the corner. From what you explained, the only real options I see are to hit the brakes (which I don't like) or hang further off the bike while trying to keep it more upright. If you are in good body position, bike leaned at an acceptable angle, and you are still dragging parts. I could point the finger at equipment. Maybe you need more preload, maybe you need a stiffer spring. That would allow for the added ground clearance to get you through the corner without touching down.

 

Just my $.02

 

[Spike]

Some interesting thoughts. Thanx for the insight into your experience Fernando.

 

Too be honest, the responses of more body lean, etc., are somewhat elementary. Had it been that easy I wouldn't have asked you to think about how you would have handled the situation. I had no more more body lean left without growing arm and leg extensions. I used all of that margin to keep the line.

 

Throttling up is an interesting idea, assuming you have the nutz and traction for it. Dragging parts, hard over in a lean, already faster than I should have been, rolling on really wasn't something I was very inclined to do.

 

What happens when you throttle up? Ever practice adjusting your line with your throttle? Accelerating while holding your lean angle moves your line to the outside. Accelerating while holding your line constant increases lean. So what does acceleration gain you in this situation except more energy to manage at some point in the future? I'm not sure. I'd be interested to hear more on this.

 

Though the idea at some level seems to have some merit. It is something I have been trying to replay in my mind to ascertain if it would have been acceptable to do. The one thing though that I keep coming back to correlates to Fernando's post. Adding more ponies speeds up the bike and might get me out of the situation and might really really screw me over for the next corner. Dunno. Wish I had the darn thing on video.

 

As for the Ducati comment Todd, I am taking donations. Though seems to me the same misjudgment could be made on that bike and probably with higher stakes.

[Spike]

Great post Oop. The suspension questions are spot on. Yes it is the stock setup. However I have to say that I am very happy with them and the OEM on the ST seems to be light years ahead of the OEM on the RT (at least the 1100's anyway). Those just sucked. I spent a few weeks dialing in the ST suspenders when I picked it up and while aftermarket equipment could only make it better the current ones have proven to be adequate to date. Though I have been perusing the vendors for ideas.

 

With that said, I have had the ST for 3 years and this was the first time that I have ever touched down with it. (Hmm, maybe I am slowing down) Generally touching down has been of no issue. I generally view that as a failure of a combination of body position, speed, or line. Stiffer springs would have helped, but the prime motivator here was that I was too quick on entry. This problem could just as easily extend to better shocks and higher speeds.

[OoPEZoO]

Stiffer springs would have helped, but the prime motivator here was that I was too quick on entry. This problem could just as easily extend to better shocks and higher speeds.

 

I suppose. I would like to hear a more experienced opinion than my own on the situation, but I have always been of the mindset that a suspension should NEVER bottom out regardless of the conditions. Which raises another question......I guess I had assumed that you were bottomed out. Did your suspension actually bottom out, or was it just squatted down far enough to allow the contact?

 

If you were bottomed out then I would say that your current suspension system is insufficiant or needed to be properly dialed in for the conditons. If you bottom out, you are at the mercy of physics and hopefully past experience will get you through. Of course if you tune for that worst case scenario then it might ride like complete crap the rest of the time you are on the "normal" stuff.

 

If you were not bottomed out then I would blame the combination of lean, line, and speed. Increasing lean angle by adding throttle and holding your line would cause the rear to squat more and possibly result in more contact. For speed, there is trail braking but the more brake you add, the more the bike uprights itself blowing your line. I'm not sure there is a silver bullet solution. You are right that it would be nice to have video to pick apart. The fine details could make all the difference with everyone painting their own visual image.

 

Either way, if you rode it out in one piece, I would say you did whatever was necessary for that situation. Its funny how a 2 second blip in your day can seem like an eternity when you put it into words

[Spike]

I didn't bottom out. Just found the ground with parts on the right side. More specifically my peg and brake lever.

 

I don't think there is a silver bullet. I am just trying to get people to think more critically about how to really lead your moto and how there can be multiple ways to get to the same outcome.

 

 

[eddd]

Back to original question: "Quick, what do you do to fix the dragging problem?"

 

I'm far from any type of expert, but I don't think there is anything you can do at that point to fix the dragging problem. Given that you were already at maximum lean, NOT reacting to dragging parts would seem to be the best option. Afterall, you can generally drag a brake lever and foot peg and still have ample traction for the turn.

 

Staying focused, trusting the bike, and riding through the dragging seems to be the best option.

 

Long-term, with a 3 year old suspension, it might be time to at least bring the suspension back to where it was when it as new.

[big-t]

 

I'm with Steve on this one,once you have maxed out all the options there is little to do but ride it out and try not to lever the rear wheel off the pavement.Easing the throttle slowly will help a bit,but you have to do it very carefully,as not to upset the suspension.

 

And yea,I have done it several times,to the extent of grinding of the side of my boot and everything else on the side of the RT including grinding a big hole in the fairing.

 

I try not to go there anymore.I'm pretty sure my heart won't handle it again..

 

 

As for the Ducati comment Todd, I am taking donations. Though seems to me the same misjudgment could be made on that bike and probably with higher stakes.

 

I'm pretty sure I saw something like that happen on a borrowed Multi...

[OoPEZoO]

Back to original question: "Quick, what do you do to fix the dragging problem?"

 

I'm far from any type of expert, but I don't think there is anything you can do at that point to fix the dragging problem. Given that you were already at maximum lean, NOT reacting to dragging parts would seem to be the best option. Afterall, you can generally drag a brake lever and foot peg and still have ample traction for the turn.

 

Staying focused, trusting the bike, and riding through the dragging seems to be the best option.

 

I'm with Eddd. I agree that the best solution in that situation is to stay focused, not over react to touching down, look where you want to go, and ride it out. For safety, I think holding your line would be the most important aspect (assuming this is a blind corner).

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Three year old suspension will have lost some spring length and certainly some damping as the oil in the shocks will have deteriorated. While the suspension on the ST may, indeed, be better than that of the old oilhead suspenders, it is still pretty much crap when compared to quality after market shocks that are well set up.

 

I have not owned a BMW for some time but, my Triumph Sprint ST comes with the same Sachs shock as the later BMW models and when compared to the Ohlins set up by Lindemann Engineering I have on the back of mine it is absolute garbage. Coupled with the modifications to the front suspension Jim did, the bike is now magic. It will not bottom over the most evil dips I have encountered and remains dead stable during cornering. This includes under heavy throttle or even braking while healed over. It does not want to stand up or dive into the corner but remains neutral regardless of throttle or brake applied.

 

How to achieve this is covered in the manuals for the Ohlins suspension on my Aprilia Tuono Factory which comes with Ohlins forks and shocks front and rear. When the bike is really right, it has to be felt to be believed. The bike is supple over bumps and dips, giving a smooth ride yet remains in complete rider control during cornering.

[Jim Moore]

Keeping your wits about you you continue to lead with your head, get your body as far to the inside as possible ...

 

Have someone follow you with a video camera some day. Unless you have been to the track alot, I'm willing to bet you aren't hanging off nearly as much as you think you are. I'm not picking on you, it happens to everyone.

[Spike]

I'm pretty sure I saw something like that happen on a borrowed Multi...

 

I have no clue what you are talking about Todd

 

I really think you guys are on the money with hold your breath and ride it out. That is definitely what I would consider to be one of the few really viable options. The real skill there is keeping your reactions/emotions in check.

 

Have someone follow you with a video camera some day.

 

I have and it was very telling.

 

Three year old suspension will have lost some spring length and certainly some damping as the oil in the shocks will have deteriorated. While the suspension on the ST may, indeed, be better than that of the old oilhead suspenders, it is still pretty much crap when compared to quality after market shocks that are well set up.

 

No doubt aftermarket suspenders are better. I put them on the RT when I had them and were glad that I did. But are you saying that with them installed you won't touch down, ever? I appreciate the idea of making the bike better, but honestly, what I am after is a discussion of making ourselves better.

 

My opinions on this are probably somewhat contrary to the majority's opinions, but I think we as a riders spend way too much time trying to optimize our bike's performance when compared to the time we spend trying to optimize our own performance. Its kind of like the cyclists who spend thousands of dollars for carbon fiber parts to shave a few ounces when they have 20 pounds of tummy. Seems like the majority of time we ourselves are the limiting factor in our execution (and safety) not the compromises made by the OEM. Wasn't it one of our best riders who got an education by an airhead a few years ago down in the mountains?

 

 

As for what I did, and what I did wrong....

 

When I started to touch my line was good and I had some room on the outside. I sacrificed that room by applying some left bar pressure to bring the scooter more vertical. This got me up and off the ground without adding speed. Obviously constant speed and less lean equals floating the line towards the outside, just what I wanted. Crossing the lines however would not be included in that. The cure for this would be less throttle to try and keep the line on my side of the yellows. This I just flat out screwed up. Somewhat reflexively I rolled off way too much. The result was that I transition myself from less lean and floating the line to the outside to too much lean (for my new speed) and pulling the line way to the inside. That then I had to correct. The resultant corner had multiple shortly spaced apexes that probably made me look drunk. I think part of this was that I didn't hold my reactions well enough in check and ended up ham fisting the controls.

 

The second thing I did wrong, and one that I dislike the most, was that I was actually *surprised* by the occurrence. Touching down was the last thing on my mind, I hadn't even remotely considered the possibility. I think that probably contributed greatly to my quick ham fisted reaction. I need to get back and spend some more quality time with the scoot considering edge cases of handling.

 

 

 

 

[Bill_Walker]

My opinions on this are probably somewhat contrary to the majority's opinions, but I think we as a riders spend way too much time trying to optimize our bike's performance when compared to the time we spend trying to optimize our own performance.

 

No, you're absolutely right. Money spent on a good track school will do way more for you than money spent on parts. In the sitch I mentioned above with my Ducati, I had luckily quite recently taken a class at Spencer's where they taught me how to hang off. I was stupidly following a faster rider on an unfamiliar road, I was already hanging off, and I touched down the left exhaust can and actually levered the rear wheel off the pavement. I found I was able to hang off a whole lot more and get the wheel down (almost instantaneously) and continue the turn.

 

I haven't done it, but I'm pretty sure you can drag a knee on an RT without dragging any hard parts (I'm pretty sure I know a couple of folks here who can attest to this). So, if you're not dragging a knee, you can be hanging off farther.

 

Of course, the right answer in all of this is that you were going too fast for conditions, since you couldn't see and react to the low spot in time. It sounds like your instincts worked out pretty well, though.

[Paul Mihalka]

Well you made it, and you think about it. That's good. The best I can recommend is to do some good high performance track riding school. I personally loved Reg Pridmore's CLASS, I don't have personal experience of others. You ride your own bike. You find it's limits, you don't have to overstep. You find out how far you can lean. You find and build up your own limits. You get good expert advice. For many years I did at least one per year. I called it my yearly tune-up. I was doing intentionally things I might have to do in a emergency. If I've done it before, I can do it again. If I haven't done it before, I won't do it, even if it is possible. A big step up from RideSmart. With my current limitations I stopped doing it. A lowered bike with lowered footpegs is not a good track bike. I miss it.

[tallman]

My opinions on this are probably somewhat contrary to the majority's opinions, but I think we as a riders spend way too much time trying to optimize our bike's performance when compared to the time we spend trying to optimize our own performance.

 

 

 

I haven't done it, but I'm pretty sure you can drag a knee on an RT without dragging any hard parts (I'm pretty sure I know a couple of folks here who can attest to this). So, if you're not dragging a knee, you can be hanging off farther.

 

.

 

Second to your +1

 

Sean used to drag his glove in sweepers, or so I'm told.

A knee shouldn't be a problem.

 

I think I passed Mitch once (going the opposite direction, don't be silly ) as he

was exiting the Cherohala.

Looked like his mirror was dragging.

Those bikes will do remarkable things in the right hands...

 

[Ken H.]

Well the question is what do you do to fix the dragging problem, not what do you do to avoid it. If the question was the latter, I’d say the thing missing from your list is brakes. Once you realized you were too fast, you can still brake well into the turn to bleed off speed.

 

But regardless, you’ve started dragging stuff, and the immediate goal is to get the bike more upright, while maintaining the arc/line of the turn, so that means getting yourself off the bike more, leaned inside. Waaay inside. Hang off big time as you use the mass gained inside (yourself) to keep the bike more upright. This is the time for way beyond ‘kiss the mirror’. It’s time for a knee dragging (if not literally) type of a lean.

 

[TN_R_Girl]

My opinions on this are probably somewhat contrary to the majority's opinions, but I think we as a riders spend way too much time trying to optimize our bike's performance when compared to the time we spend trying to optimize our own performance. ... Seems like the majority of time we ourselves are the limiting factor in our execution (and safety) not the compromises made by the OEM.

 

I'm really intrigued to hear you say this. As most folks here know, I am not a big fan of changing things up on my bike and have never felt any need to tinker with the bike any further than dialing up the preload when I'm carrying my hard cases loaded up.

 

Guess my question would be: is this just inexperience on my part (i.e., I don't know enough to know what I'm missing?) or a function of physics (i.e., my height & weight don't require any major changes from the stock settings?)

 

But ultimately, I think I will always be painfully aware that my ride is SOOO much more capable than I will ever be!

 

 

[Spike]

I would say that there are definitely advantages to nicer hardware. Suspension is one that many people key in on. However I get the impression that many people swap out for really high end equipment "to improve the ride" when they aren't at that level yet.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Not much you can do except hold the throttle and ride it out.

 

Adding throttle might extend the suspension and help the ground clearance problems, but it also will push you wide and eat rear tire traction...not an optimal solution.

 

Closing the throttle would be a disaster since that would collapse the rear suspension and make your ground clearance issues worse.

 

Adding lean probably isn't an option since you were dragging your rear brake lever. With an R1100RT, you can take all the way to the valve cover (assuming the suspension is setup properly, the peg feeler touches first, then that spot on the lower bit of the fairing, then the valve cover) so just because the peg feeler is dragging, that certainly doesn't mean you are out of lean. It sounds like your ST is lean-limited by the rear brake lever...which is unfortunate.

 

Lots of stuff would have prevented the situation to begin with...lower entry speed being the best advice.

 

I'm a huge fan of good aftermarket suspension...I think if you want to spend money on something to bolt to your motorcycle, nothing is going to be a good as good suspension. But...at the end of the day the best thing you can do is upgrade the nut that connects the saddle to the handlebars. I remember once when Sean Daly borrowed Lisa's K75 (interesting note: The K75 was a great bike with a fantastic motor, but the front end was diabolically bad) and we rode together with me on my RT. I had well-adjusted good aftermarket shocks on a bike with more power, a much better chassis, better suspension design, and MUCH better suspension components and Sean completely cleaned my clock on the heavy, underpowered K75 with a wet noodle for a chassis/suspension. The only way I could stay with him was in the straights. Like they say...machines own the straights, but riders own the corners.