Symptoms, Diagnosis, and Prescription

[David]

I thought it might help some newer riders self-diagnose any riding issues they may be facing by listing a symptom, first, and then the likely prescription for it. I was able to put 400 miles in this last weekend, and made notes as things came to mind.

 

"Why is it that I'm making mid-corner corrections rather than executing a turn in one, smooth arc?"

 

The usual reason is that you aren't looking far enough ahead. You're possibly fixating just in front of you, and likely at the edge of the road. Try looking out, with occasional glances down instead of the reverse: looking down with occasional glances up.

 

"Why am I tending to go wide on turns? I don't feel in complete control. The bike tends to have a mind of its own, and sometimes I almost feel like I'm fighting the handlebars: I need to lean more, but I'm afraid to."

 

The usual reason is that you are gripping the bars too tightly. The physics of steering geometry make your bike self-correcting. But that's only if the bars can move freely. Once you tighten your grip, or have straight arms (rather than bent arms), the bike will ALWAYS tend to run wide.

 

"Why do I seem to struggle even more with going wide when I have a passenger aboard?"

 

There are good and bad passengers. Good passengers flow with the bike. Bad passengers tense up and in the process they become part of the sprung weight of the bike, making the bike less responsive as the suspension attempts to keep up with the undulations in the road. Good passengers are limber without resisting the bike's natural movement. Try to get your passenger to be "draped" over the seat with bent arms/legs. These arms/legs should act like shock absorbers rather than rigid poles.

 

"Why do I struggle more with navigating twisty roads when I'm going downhill than uphill?"

 

Try holding yourself back with your legs firmly squeezing the tank rather than stiffening your arms. The handlebars need to move around freely as you track the curves.

 

"Why do I sometimes feel the need to brake in the middle of a turn?"

 

You're picking an entry speed that's too fast. Never enter a corner faster than a speed that allows you to maintain neutral throttle through the entire corner. The point of that is to put the suspension in the middle third "sweet spot" so that the bike responds efficiently. Ideally you're actually accelerating through a corner and can just switch to neutral throttle if you misjudge it.

 

"Why do I have trouble getting over to the correct entry point on a corner?"

 

Likely because you aren't exiting the previous corner in the correct place. Always try to string corners together. Your cornering path should be constructed such that you're set up for the proper entry to the NEXT corner. If that's not happening, you're going too fast. Or you're apexing too early. Again, the proper exit of a turn is one that allows the proper entry to the next one.

 

"What should I be doing after I have picked my apex point? I've been keeping my eye on it until I turn."

 

Once you have the apex point picked out, lift your head up and inside and look for the exit point. Only keep the turning point in your peripheral vision, even if that means missing it by a few feet. It's critical to pick the exit point of a turn BEFORE you get to the apex.

 

"What should I do if I enter a corner and the radius tightens up?"

 

Maintain neutral throttle, normally, and lean your upper body down, forward, and inside (closer to the inside mirror). Do not move your lower body, as that can easily unsettle the suspension…and a solid day of doing that will exhaust your quads.

 

Hope that helps a little!

[Alan D]

Thank you for that!

[David]

You're welcome.

 

We need to get more content in this forum and keep people on their toes. If we could mix politics into these skill discussions, we'd probably get better traction.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

"Why do I have trouble getting over to the correct entry point on a corner?"

 

Likely because you aren't exiting the previous corner in the correct place. Always try to string corners together. Your cornering path should be constructed such that you're set up for the proper entry to the NEXT corner. If that's not happening, you're going too fast. Or you're apexing too early. Again, the proper exit of a turn is one that allows the proper entry to the next one.

 

This holds so true with linked turns that go in opposite directions. Holding the lean angle a bit through the apex to set you up for the next turn is the key to both speed and smoothness. The classic line really only applies to single turns. Try going curb to apex to curb with a turn in the opposite direction shortly ahead and you will find yourself flummoxed at the entry to the second turn, way out of position and forced to slow too much.

[David]

Ed, what did you mean by linked turns in opposite directions?

[Matts_12GS]

Thank you David!

 

I learned a great deal riding with folks this weekend at BRR but I consistently found myself turning in early on left handers. Even thinking about baseball couldn't keep me from consistently apexing early.

 

Any thoughts to help others with this condition?

[Indy Dave]

Thanks David! Bravo!

[russell_bynum]

Thank you David!

 

I learned a great deal riding with folks this weekend at BRR but I consistently found myself turning in early on left handers. Even thinking about baseball couldn't keep me from consistently apexing early.

 

Any thoughts to help others with this condition?

 

Usually, you turn early because you're afraid of running wide...usually because you are going too fast at entry and/or not looking ahead enough.

 

In left-handers you start close to the edge, so your brain is already screaming at you to turn in so you don't run off the road. With right-handers, you've got the other lane as a visual buffer...which helps to silence your survival instinct which is screaming at you to TURN IN NOW OR YOU'LL RUN WIDE!!

 

How to fix it: Slow down and work on keeping your vision wide...directing your attention as far into the corner as you can see.

 

I make a point of staying out wide until I can see the turn's exit point. Then square the corner off, get the bike turned and back upright as quickly as possible, and then romp on the gas.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

David,

S-turns, if you will. Left followed closely by right or vice versa.

 

Holding the lean angle a bit longer, or maybe late apexing is a better term, and not allowing the bike to pull out to the fog line on the exit of the first turn will find you positioned for the entry of the second without having to haul the bike back to the opposite side of the road.

 

Jennings GP look at turns 7 and 8. I submit that a late apex on 7, holding to the right edge of the track on the exit, will make the entry into 8 a bunch easier. It may not be faster though as you will sacrifice some speed on the entry to 7 but may be able to make up for it with a better drive out of 8. You will certainly expend less effort in handling that pair of turns.

 

9 and 10 are similar but there is more time/distance between them so you can use that to reposition the bike for 10.

 

[chrisd]

Thanks, David. Very helpful information.

[Jim Moore]

Jennings GP look at turns 7 and 8. I submit that a late apex on 7, holding to the right edge of the track on the exit, will make the entry into 8 a bunch easier. It may not be faster though as you will sacrifice some speed on the entry to 7 but may be able to make up for it with a better drive out of 8. You will certainly expend less effort in handling that pair of turns.

That's a huge topic of debate amongst the locals. The guy who designed the track (Ed Bargy) says to start 7 from the far left side of that short straightaway and aim right at the apex for 8. Lots of other guys do what you're saying, stay on the apex of 7 longer to make the entry for 8 easier.

[Matts_12GS]

Thanks Russell, that's about exactly what happens.

[Limecreek]

Thank you David!

but I consistently found myself turning in early on left handers. Even thinking about baseball couldn't keep me from consistently apexing early.

 

Matt, go out and find a lightly travel road; one that you are extremely familiar. Enter all your corners slow enough to follow the fog line all the way around the way around. Set up to the right on entry and stay there all the way through the corner.

 

You must keep your speed down for this exercise; entry speed may be less than half of your normal entry speed. And make sure there is not a car coming up from behind at normal speed.

 

I use to practice this exercise early on Sunday mornings while the rest of the world was at home making coffee.

 

The point of the exercise is to overcome the fear of the left hand turn. As you gain confidence, increase your speed and resume a normal entry, transition and exit. You’ll find you are turning in later and will use the entire lane for the entry, transition and exit.

 

If the fear returns on an unfamiliar road, slow down, stay to the right for the entry and look up and through the corner and pick an exit close to the fog line.

 

This exercise was suggested right here in this forum, some years ago. I’d like to give credit to the person that suggested it, but I just can’t remember who it was. For me it cured me of the early apex blues.

 

Oh, one more thing, Republicans do not have problems moving left too soon, so this may be a simple as a party change for you.

 

[Lineareagle]

Nice reminders, especially about remaining relaxed. I am quite sure most of my pucker moments are caused by tensing up on the bike rather than flowing with it.

 

I have a series of curves I ride to and from work everyday.

Steep downhill to work steep uphill home.

Nice with two s turns linked by a short straight section.

 

I have increased speed and smoothness incrementally over the years and it is a great warm up each spring.

 

However, there is one major caveat to this. Almost everyday I meet oncoming traffic that has crossed the center line.

In other words, be very careful as you choose entry speeds and apexes and exits to account for this reality.

 

Nothing screws with a nice line more than an F150 2 feet into your lane.

Really pushing a ride should only be done on a closed track, IMHO.

[tallman]

You're welcome.

 

We need to get more content in this forum and keep people on their toes. If we could mix politics into these skill discussions, we'd probably get better traction.

 

Why do liberals have trouble with right turns?

Why do conservatives apply the brakes early when turning left?

[David]

Gotcha, Ed. Now I understand.

[MikeB]

Very good stuff David.

[tallman]

David,

You did something similar back before the first El Paseo.

Although part of the post was road specific, it contained

good information about riding in the mountains.

[David]

Yeah, I remember that. The motivation was that so many riders had never ridden in the Smoky Mountains before.

[Indy Dave]

Is there a link to that thread by chance?

[philbytx]

A post full of profundity!

But not wishing to labour too much on a point, but a liberal dose of such comments do little to keep us centre regarding the point of your post. Which is that we need a more conservative approach to anyone politicizing postings !

[drzep]

Thank you David. Good stuff.

[roadscholar]

It does help quite a bit. The last two are a problem for me sometimes. I have to consciously remember to lift my head up on exits, otherwise it becomes just a passive journey thru the turn.

 

When you were behind me the other day I'm sure you saw that I blew at least a couple decreasing radius turns (among other things). When overcooked, my instinct is to pull the bike down dirt style which usually lets me get away with it (on that type bike), but I know it's a bad habit.

 

Colette appreciated your compliment about being a limber and somewhat active passenger. I doubt she was consciously trying, just enjoying being part of the ride, but now she'll think about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[murrayg]

David,

Do you always have to pick on my riding? Good stuff,sir.

[David]

Miss riding with you, man. That was a blast back before the UN. In case you hadn't heard, Bearden has hung up his spurs.

[rfc1992]

David:

 

Thank you for this post. It is not just for newbies, it is a reminder to those that ride occasionally too.

 

I have learned to waggle the elbows prior to corners to remind me to loosen the arms and bend the elbows. It is amazing the difference.

 

I once tried the 'Dragon' and entered a turn too hot and did everything in your post... opposite the recommendations. $600 damage to bike and a bone-headed low side culminating in a broken ankle (had all the gear on!!!) later, I learned.

 

I enjoy the occasional remedial lesson - it hurts too bad the other way. BTW, the accident was prior to riding with and joining this group.

 

 

 

[rfc1992]

A post full of profundity!

But not wishing to labour too much on a point, but a liberal dose of such comments do little to keep us centre regarding the point of your post. Which is that we need a more conservative approach to anyone politicizing postings !

 

A perfectly perspicacious point.

[David]

I'm glad it was helpful to you. Most of this came to mind as I was self-diagnosing my own lame riding this last weekend.

 

Seriously, the mark of riding well isn't doing that all the time but knowing the different between "average" and "good" riding and then determining what you need to do differently to move into the latter category. Like any sport, it often means going back to the basics. I certainly do all the time.

[OoPEZoO]

Seriously, the mark of riding well isn't doing that all the time but knowing the different between "average" and "good" riding and then determining what you need to do differently to move into the latter category. Like any sport, it often means going back to the basics. I certainly do all the time.

 

ooph...thats certainly the truth. I'm having a terrible time shaking the rust off this year. I was feeling really good about how I ended things last season in December, but I'm still finding myself going back to stupid habits that I got rid of years ago. Thats one of the reasons I was really looking forward the BRR. I was hoping a few hundred miles of twisty roads would help me get my groove back. So much for that. As stupid as it sounds, I think one of my major problems this year is that I'm riding with glasses for the first time. I have always worn contacts previously. I think wearing my glasses is really screwing with my depth perception, and I KNOW I'm having a hard time adjusting to the loss of my peripheral vision. When I turn my head where I want to go, I lose sight of what is directly in front of my bike. I guess its something you can get used to, but I've never had to deal with it before. It's pushing me harder to bite the bullet and get LASIK

[Indy Dave]

Sounds like you've boned up on your mechanics skills though

 

Did you get progressive glasses? I've yet to ride with mine, I went ahead and bought a pair of progressives and a 'normal' pair so I can choose when I want to lose my peripheral vision.

[OoPEZoO]

No progressives for me man (yet).....I just turned 31

 

My loss of peripheral vision is due to trying to look where my glasses do not cover. I end up looking over my glasses or out the side of my visor where my glasses just can't and don't have the coverage. I'm nearsighted with a perscription of -3 in both eyes. I can't see farther than about 3ft in front of my face. So when I'm leaned into a tight turn, I move my head to look where I want to go and while I can see where I want to go, everything else goes blurry. This wasn't a problem when I wore contacts. I have worn contacts since I was about 13, and I wore them all the time unless I was just bumming around the house. Now I'm trying to get used to wearing glasses again and I'm really starting to miss the little things that I used to take for granted (like crystal clear peripheral vision)

[Matts_12GS]

I have the same problem with glasses and so I stick to contacts

[Indy Dave]

I'm not sure Harry had the problem when he rode . . .

 

[Kinsley]

Gotcha, Ed. Now I understand.

 

My usual approach is an outside-inside-inside instead of the track/racer version of outside-inside-outside. By approaching a corner with this mindset, I should have to turn in a little later (slower entries), so on a left hander I would turn in throttle on and hit my delayed apex near the double yellow and continue up the double yellow to be on the outside for the upcoming right hander. My inside exit of the 1st corner becomes my outside of the 2nd corner and most importantly this maximizes vision for street riding.

 

I don't know the numbers as far as percentages, but I usually assume that more often than not a right hander is followed by a left hander and visa versa.

 

If a left is followed by a left, then I just let myself drift back out to the fog line. Basically, I feel that this approach builds in a lane's width buffer for decreasing radiuses as well.

[Ken H.]

I’ll add one...

 

"Why am I scrapping the hard parts on tight turns so much?"

 

You maybe entering the turn too fast or your body position may be such that the bike has to be leaned more than necessary. Try setting up your speed and your body position before you begin the arc and place your body well inside, forward and down so the bike itself doesn’t have to be leaned so far over.

 

[David]

Excellent addition. Thanks.

[Hollow Road Rider]

More thanks... what I like about this place is that you mature guys, with way more experience, keep thinking and reminding me that this learning curve is a on a continuum. Basically, that means I don't feel so dumb after I read your stuff.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Just be careful that the learning continuum doesn't become a circle.

 

There is a tendency, as one grows more mature, to forget everything you know about every couple of years or so. Much like the engineering department in my company.

[David]

I think that the mark of a good rider is not how he rides but how he can self-diagnos himself out of a funk.

[Hollow Road Rider]

Do you mean to tell me that you "good riders" get into funks?

[fisherman]

Do you mean to tell me that you "good riders" get into funks?

_________________________

Tom

 

Even Val Rossi gets into a funk. Tiger Woods has his mind on other things and can't win. You might say he is in a funk.

 

Gil Horsley

 

 

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

Do you mean to tell me that you "good riders" get into funks?

_________________________

Tom

 

Even Val Rossi gets into a funk. Tiger Woods has his mind on other things and can't win. You might say he is in a funk.

 

Gil Horsley

 

 

 

 

Hi Gil!

 

Seems that this time the "funk" got into an F18 ;-)

/hijack

[Mighty Manfred]

Excellent thread! As one who learned to ride when I was a pup, it's been a focus of mine in my middle age return to bikes to learn how to ride properly so I can still enjoy a somewhat aggressive style - and live.

 

Last year, a buddy and I read Riding in the Zone, watched the DVD, and practiced in parking lots before a long trip. It was most helpful, even though much of it wasn't news.