Well this sucks.......

[AZKomet]

http://www.azcentral.com/

[David13]

Unbelievable. Tragic beyond belief.

dc

 

[dhanson]

We have those dump trucks here working big time hauling dirt to some construction area, got to really watch them as they are in a hurry both directions.

 

Sure would like to know the details to this. At the very least I would keep an eye on my rear view mirror.

[AZKomet]

We have those dump trucks here working big time hauling dirt to some construction area, got to really watch them as they are in a hurry both directions.

 

Sure would like to know the details to this. At the very least I would keep an eye on my rear view mirror.

 

When more details emerge I will post them. My contact @ a local hospital said some of the criticals are not doing good. Hopefully 3 was enough. Geez.

[Quinn]

Gotta love the media.

 

"Eight motorcycles carrying at least nine people were stopped at a stop light when the large truck apparently hit them from behind"

 

Apparently hit them from behind? As opposed to what--they backed into him and wedged themselves under his chasis?

 

Elsewhere there were ten motorcycles or maybe six. More important to get the news out than to get it right.

 

---

 

 

[jslyter]

Absolutely horrible.

 

The breaking news video says 5 fatalities. I hope that is wrong...3 is bad enough.

[notacop]

Hope the driver of the truck was at least a bit singeds by his stupidity and carelessness.

I hate crap like this. No excuse for it.

[yabadabapal]

Very scary reminder. Im sorry to hear this. The last report was that 5 people have died. RIP.

[Bullett]

Horrible, simply horrible. My heart goes out to the riders' family and friends.

 

/rant: I'm scared of trucks and their drivers. I see a lot of drivers in my line of work and many of them had serious health problems prior to their work accident. I wonder how they can even climb into the cab of the truck. . . COPD, history of serious heart problems, some on chronic narcotics. . . I used to think that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road, but not any more.

[Heck]

I used to think that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road, but not any more.

 

 

 

Sharon- They used to be. 25-30 years ago....

 

 

To the MC riders - R.I.P.

To their families - Condolences, thoughts and prayers.

[RT Russ]

Well this sucks.......

 

 

What an understatement! Horrible, unbelievably horrible.

[RichEdwards]

Vehicular homocide. Jail time.

[jwurbel]

Yesterday afternoon in Phoenix, a sanitation truck ran over 9 people on 8 motorcycles while they were stopped at a red light. 3 were pinned under the truck, killed instantly, and the truck burst into flames. The driver of the truck made a comment that he had looked down to "shuffle" some papers. Alcohol/drugs at this point do not seem to be involved.

 

I have feared being rearended for a number of years, primarily due to all the distractions (cell phones, texting, putting on makeup, eating, whatever) that I see going around me when I am out. This is a very sad situation for our community. More info is available through azcentral.com.

[lvnvbiker]

Unbelievable! I'm not a religious guy at all, but this got a prayer for the injured out of me and actualy brought tears to my eyes... I do hope that they crucify the driver, and if it was a mechanical issue the company he drove for also. If you are wondering why I say the driver in the mechanical issue scenario, all drivers are taught to inspect and either adjust or have adjusted the brake systems on the trucks along with a 99 other points of inspection EVERY DAY!

[lvnvbiker]

See "well this sucks" in the ride well forum for details.

[boatzo]

That is absolutely horrible. I worry too about things like that. Had it happen to me in the cage at a stop sign (the guy said he was looking for a business card), but never on the bike (thank God).

[Kathy R]

Oh no, how senseless!!!

 

Healing thoughts and prayers for all involved.

[upflying]

The truck driver told a witness to the crash that he was shuffling papers and wasn't paying attention. Another example of distracted driving.

Media reports "apparently" because they don't know and don't want to expose themselves to litigation if something else besides the obvious rear-ender caused the accident.

Yes, the driver of the truck could and should be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

And yes, checking your six when stopped at a signal may have prevented some or all of this tragedy. Besides checking your six, keep your bike in gear and keep your bike in the extreme left or right wheel position, ready to lane split to safety if you see a target approaching from behind.

What's also tragic is a first responder is among the victims. I also see huge lawsuits looming..not only against the driver and his company but the motorcycle club, ride captain and training officer for not briefing the riders on hazards before the ride began.

The aftermath photos show a lot of detectives and plain clothes officers at the scene. That's encouraging because it means this is a crime scene. Missing from the photos is any evidence of the use of a Total Station. That is the only way to accurately document and measure this scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_station

 

[10ovr]

Vehicular homocide. Jail time.

Not in the state of AZ,,Traffic school,Thats about it,,,I have two friends that were hit head on and killed by a kid that was reaching for his cell phone,,Thats all he got,,Sucks

[Paul Mihalka]

"I also see huge lawsuits looming..not only against the driver and his company but the motorcycle club, ride captain and training officer for not briefing the riders on hazards before the ride began."

 

This is absurd and should never happen. When I ride, or do most other things, I am responsible for my actions or inactions. Not a club, a ride captain, or a trainer. The possibility of this kind of lawsuits is what increases insurance costs and makes us hate lawyers.

 

[upflying]

This crash is high profile and no doubt motorcycle groups will be following this case to make sure justice is done.

In the case of the truck driver, the criminal consequences are the least of his worries. He will be paying civilly for the rest of his life.

[upflying]

"I also see huge lawsuits looming..not only against the driver and his company but the motorcycle club, ride captain and training officer for not briefing the riders on hazards before the ride began."

 

This is absurd and should never happen. When I ride, or do most other things, I am responsible for my actions or inactions. Not a club, a ride captain, or a trainer. The possibility of this kind of lawsuits is what increases insurance costs and makes us hate lawyers.

I agree it is absurd but when attorneys take a look at this..an organized ride promoted by a motorcycle club..means the club and it's officers will have some liability.

[pickersgill1]

That is terrible terrible news!

 

Group of bikers doing what they like doing best to be wipe out like that is bad, hope tough justice is handed out to the truck driver who will have to live with the death of these riders for the rest of his life.

 

http://tinyurl.com/ygkxhbq

[upflying]

Maybe we can get the mods to merge the threads.

[Indy Dave]

 

/rant: I'm scared of trucks and their drivers. I see a lot of drivers in my line of work and many of them had serious health problems prior to their work accident. I wonder how they can even climb into the cab of the truck. . . COPD, history of serious heart problems, some on chronic narcotics. . . I used to think that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road, but not any more.

 

Like any profession, trucking has it's share of folks you might not look up to. I know a lot a great folks who drive and who are very good drivers.

 

This is a tragedy, no doubt about it. For any of us to pretend that we've not allowed ourselves to be distracted by - whatever - at times while driving is disingenuous. Not that that in any way makes it 'OK' or right or less our fault (or this dump truck driver's fault).

 

Hopefully the take away for all of us will be to commit to not allowing ourselves to be distracted while driving / riding.

[drzep]

Edit: repeat post

[longjohn]

The driver had several previous violations: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/03/27/20100327driver-in-phoenix-motorcycle-crash.html

Cripes, how many times have you seen big rig/bus drivers being occupied with something else?

[upflying]

Michael J. Jakscht, 46, truck driver...

A memorable last name to say the least. I wonder if the name is an omen of things to come.

[Indy Dave]

The driver had several previous violations: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2010/03/27/20100327driver-in-phoenix-motorcycle-crash.html

Cripes, how many times have you seen big rig/bus drivers being occupied with something else?

 

Yea - all pretty minor violations, and most are are non-moving violations. Certainly nothing here to indicate the coming tragedy or that he was was an obviously irresponsible driver.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone what happened or defend his being distracted. He will surly pay dearly for killing and injuring the riders - as he should. He'll also have to try to live with what he's done haunting him the rest of his life; as will the victims families.

 

As for distracted driving/texting, etc - if you'd like an education on this topic, come ride around in one of my rigs - where you can see the unbelievable things a large percentage of automobile drivers do while driving their cars.

 

You'll think twice about getting on you bike.

 

Wanna bet this guy was not watching the road when he died on his bike yesterday? My point being that distracted driving is a universal plague: bikers, drivers, pilots, etc. It has to stop!

 

biker killed

[AZKomet]

Another one dies on Sat.......4 so far. News also reported the truck driver has a long list of safety violations to include cites for same.

[Fubar]

Wanna bet this guy was not watching the road when he died? My point being that distracted driving is a universal plague: It has to stop!

 

I remember reading an article in a car mag a few years back. The author was lamenting the lack of cupholders in a new German car. The PR rep for the manufacturer said something like "If you want a drink, stop and get one. When you're done, get back on the road." The inference being, nothing is more important when driving than driving. Obviously, this applies to riding as well. Your life and the lives of those around you are at stake. Stay focused, stay alive.

[AZKomet]

Rumor is that the AZ legislature is going to adopt lane splitting in AZ. The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights and split traffic at a speed yet to be determined. We shall see. The thought is maybe this will not happen again in the future by allowing bikes to be somewhat protected.

[CoarsegoldKid]

Rumor is that the AZ legislature is going to adopt lane splitting in AZ. The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights and split traffic at a speed yet to be determined.

Sensible for many reasons.

[upflying]

Good idea, even if lane sharing isn't legal, I'll take a ticket over getting smacked in the rear by a garbage truck.

[Deek]

"...Yea - all pretty minor violations, and most are are non-moving violations. Certainly nothing here to indicate the coming tragedy or that he was was an obviously irresponsible driver. ....."

 

I disagree. His citations demonstrate that he is NOT a responsible person. Perhaps his demonstrated irresponsibility it doesn't forecast that he'll go out and kill someone, but it clearly indicates he is not up to the responsibility of driving. We are too tolerant of that sort of behavior. Didn't this guy drive for a living?

[Fubar]

/rant: I'm scared of trucks and their drivers. I see a lot of drivers in my line of work and many of them had serious health problems prior to their work accident. I wonder how they can even climb into the cab of the truck. . . COPD, history of serious heart problems, some on chronic narcotics. . . I used to think that truckers were some of the best drivers on the road, but not any more.

 

As a truck driver in a previous life, I must add that there are requirements, including DOT physicals, visual tests, etc. as well as the written and hands-on tests to get a CDL (commercial drivers license). Sadly, the requirements are not tough enough, IMO. Same can be said of other licenses. CDL licenses last only 4 years instead of 6 (in FL) and cannot be renewed online or via mail as class E (passenger car/operators) licenses can (again, in FL).

The people tasked with keeping working drivers safe are woefully underfunded and understaffed. In 15 years of driving, I never got pulled over by DOT or anyone else. My equipment was not inspected by anyone except me and my employers. I followed the rules but since no one is looking over your shoulder, it's easy to skip steps, regardless of how wrong that is.

Most drivers are pros but the pressures to "do more with less" is strong when drivers get paid by the mile. New equipment is creeping out that electronically logs hours driven and off-duty, location & speed(GPS, sat), etc. to eliminate tired drivers, falsified logbooks, etc. It ain't cheap, but compared to a life.....

Sadly, I only heard a bit of the story in passing but there is no way to defend his driver. If he couldn't stop, go offroad and have a one vehicle wreck. If he was sleepy, he shouldn't be trying to drive. Equipment not up to specs, same answer. High, same thing. Drunk, ditto. Texting, cell phone or any other distraction, wait until stopped.

If his conscience will allow him to drive again, the state shouldn't. Several decades of prison time seems in order as well, IMO.

[10ovr]

Last I heard there are still NO CHARGES ,Waiting for blood test to come in,,If they come back clean,He well probable get off with driving school,,Like I said,Its a slap on the hand to kill bikes in AZ,,Sucks

[AZKomet]

Last I heard there are still NO CHARGES ,Waiting for blood test to come in,,If they come back clean,He well probable get off with driving school,,Like I said,Its a slap on the hand to kill bikes in AZ,,Sucks

 

 

Update.....

 

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/06/20100406phoenix-truck-driver-charged-motorcycle-crash-abrk.html

[10ovr]

Good deal,,

[upflying]

Mr. Jakscht lives up to his name.

[Twisties]

Well, I hate to open a can of worms, but this bugs me, every which way.

 

I think we are way off track on the drug testing thing. Methamphetamine can test positive for up 5 days after use, so the test is not an indicator of intoxication. Depending on the type of test used, the false positive rate can be quite high and a number of legal substances and disease conditions can trigger a false positive. Other tests are more reliable, but they all have some false positive rate, and all are subject to lab error. I have been in these labs, and seen all the ways these tests can go wrong with my own eyes. It's downright scary.

 

So we use a test that does not even relate to impairment and that is error prone to make these judgments, i.e. in this case that the driver is a criminal scumbag instead of merely an incompetent scumbag.

 

I really think we need to re-gear this whole drug testing thing. It is not your employer's business what you did on your free time 6 weeks ago (some drugs show up that far back). Rather, you have a responsibility to report for work ready to perform, and if there is a public safety element to your job, your employer has some duty to determine that you are fit for work.

 

I would like to see some sort of on the job fitness/impairment testing. This would pick up impairment regardless of cause: intoxication, fatigue, illness, whatever. It would test for impairment at the time of work, not a week or 6 weeks ago, and it would actually relate to safety. I am thinking computerized tests of reaction time and attentiveness. Studies of drug testing programs have shown very poor correlation to safety outcomes... mostly because they do not test for actual current impairment.

 

Moreover, from what I have seen, trucks are laden with the latest in all the electronic distractions: radios, gps, laptops, etc. We should redesign these environments to minimize distractions, perhaps by disabling such devices when the truck is in motion.

 

I don't know what caused this horrific collision, and we may never know. I just don't think a positive on a methamphetamine test really tells us anymore than we knew without that result. I have been rear-ended 5 times now. So far as I could tell, none of the drivers was intoxicated. One plowed into me in a line of cars four lanes wide and ten deep at a red light on a perfectly flat, straight street. How in the h*** do you miss that? But so far as I could see he was perfectly normal in his reactions, certainly not seriously intoxicated. He said he never saw the traffic stopped. There were no adverse lighting or weather conditions. Traffic had been stopped a full minute. It happens. Humans are just built that way.

 

We have to accept some risk of being on the road. We have to accept that we are failable as drivers. It is inherent to the situation. Instead we are always looking for who is at fault, who we can vilify, and who has the deep pockets. I suspect we would do better to look at ways to make driving and riding safer instead.

[upflying]

You are right, a positive drug test does not mean intoxication. In most if not all states, it is illegal to drive while intoxicated on alcoholic beverages and under the influence of prescription medications and controlled substances. With alcohol, it's a no brainer. Anything above a .08 BAC is an arrest. But our criminal justice system cannot agree on how much illicit drugs/prescription meds constitutes a DUI. Each case is unique and each is easily defended since the driver may not have shown any symptoms of impairment. For that reason, district attorney's are hesitant charging DUI drugs except in the most egregious, shocking and high profile cases. Mr. Jakscht fits in that category.

[Arizona_oldguy]

Rumor is that the AZ legislature is going to adopt lane splitting in AZ. The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights and split traffic at a speed yet to be determined. We shall see. The thought is maybe this will not happen again in the future by allowing bikes to be somewhat protected.

 

And just what can I do to encourage the AZ legislature to do something about this?

 

I watched a LEO do this

The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights

a few months ago,and followed him to the nearby cop shop on my RT. When he got off his RT I asked him what he would do if I did what he had just done. He replied "give you a ticket"!

 

We are not all equal, I guess, but I would like to see the laws changed. I figured there was no chance it might happen here.

 

Glenn

 

 

[AZKomet]

Rumor is that the AZ legislature is going to adopt lane splitting in AZ. The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights and split traffic at a speed yet to be determined. We shall see. The thought is maybe this will not happen again in the future by allowing bikes to be somewhat protected.

 

And just what can I do to encourage the AZ legislature to do something about this?

 

I watched a LEO do this

The bikes can pull up to the front of the line @ stop lights

a few months ago,and followed him to the nearby cop shop on my RT. When he got off his RT I asked him what he would do if I did what he had just done. He replied "give you a ticket"!

 

We are not all equal, I guess, but I would like to see the laws changed. I figured there was no chance it might happen here.

 

Glenn

 

 

In AZ Leo's are exempt from traffic laws while performing their duties. Like it or not the legislature made it that way. IT DOES NOT GIVE THEM the right to be reckless or negligent.

 

Hope this clears it up for you. LEO's are a different breed of folks.....They do what they do given minimal pay for the dangers they face. Be glad they are out there. A traffic law infraction I would gladly allow them to do if it can help them get a difficult task done while working. On the average one LEO death every 59 hrs or so......

 

Cut them some slack and live with that for it is really not that big of a deal.

[AZKomet]

Jan Jan Jan....we do not know the concentration of meth in his blood. Until we do don't be giving this guy an out.

 

He killed four people. Even w/o the meth he was going to be arrested for negligent homicide. The meth test just allows more evidence. And one may ask why he wasn't arrested at the scene? B/c the courts needed a charge or count.....If the LEO's booked him on traffic charges he could have plead and the neg hom charge would have went away. Seriously, it has happened before and a mess ensued. The LEO's did the right thing here by waiting.

[tallman]

Jan,

Please feel free to start a web page:

"I'm willing to fly with a pilot who did meth a few days ago, or I'm willing to have surgery done by a doctor who used meth a few days ago, or I'm willing to let my child be driven by a bus driver who most likely only had a false positive on their drug test, or I'm willing to be arrested by a LEO who used meth a few days ago, and last but not least, I'm willing to bet my life in court by being defended by a lawyer who only uses meth outside the courtroom."

If he was using meth "on his own time" then I guarantee he was not 100% when "on company time".

[notacop]

Boy, yah sure can tell the recreational users here!

Do here what the Chinese do to users/pedalers. It's good for the society or the party. Purity really should count.

[tallman]

"recreational" meth?

 

[Deek]

"...Phoenix police arrested a 46-year-old man on suspicion of driving under the influence of methamphetamine in the March 25 wreck in which his dump truck rear-ended a group of motorcyclists at a red light, leaving four dead and others hospitalized....."

 

I'm glad this irresponsible deadbeat will now be charged, but I'm angry at what might have happened had ne NOT been DWI. So if he's stone cold sober what he did is "OK"? I don't think so, and I say again what I did earlier...........this guy expressed his irresponsibility toward driving for many months, and he should have NOT be allowed to drive. Period.

[upflying]

Deek, most states have vehicular manslaughter statutes that charges people even though they are sober at the time of the collision. Merely violating a driving law that results in the death of another person is all that is needed. Read California Penal Code 192©(2)

Since Jakscht had meth on-board, vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence applies.

192. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without

malice. It is of three kinds:

(a) Voluntary--upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.

(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not

amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might

produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and

circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed in

the driving of a vehicle.

© Vehicular--

(1) Except as provided in subdivision (a) of Section 191.5,

driving a vehicle in the commission of an unlawful act, not amounting

to felony, and with gross negligence; or driving a vehicle in the

commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful

manner, and with gross negligence.

(2) Driving a vehicle in the commission of an unlawful act, not

amounting to felony, but without gross negligence; or driving a

vehicle in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death,

in an unlawful manner, but without gross negligence.

(3) Driving a vehicle in connection with a violation of paragraph

(3) of subdivision (a) of Section 550, where the vehicular collision

or vehicular accident was knowingly caused for financial gain and

proximately resulted in the death of any person. This provision shall

not be construed to prevent prosecution of a defendant for the crime

of murder.

This section shall not be construed as making any homicide in the

driving of a vehicle punishable that is not a proximate result of the

commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to felony, or of the

commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful

manner.

"Gross negligence," as used in this section, shall not be

construed as prohibiting or precluding a charge of murder under

Section 188 upon facts exhibiting wantonness and a conscious

disregard for life to support a finding of implied malice, or upon

facts showing malice, consistent with the holding of the California

Supreme Court in People v. Watson, 30 Cal. 3d 290.