Ride Well or Crash Well?

[Limecreek]

Accidents? I'd rather read or talk about tips for skillful riding. Accident post mortems have their place—I guess, but isn’t this Ride Well?

 

Ride Well should be a place to share tips in the pursuit of building skills—a place to help us all sift our current average a little more to the right.

 

I use to spend a lot of time in Ride Well during my first couple of years back to riding reading about riding technique, reading some of the threads over and over again; even printing some of the better ones off and tucking them in my jacket as I went out to practice—referring to the printed words from better riders—attempting to turn the words into actions and trying to get it right. I learned a great deal from what I read; became a better rider and even avoided some oh shit moments because of the contributions made in Ride Well.

 

Up to this point I haven't given back much to Ride Well for two reasons, I wasn’t sure I had anything to offer, and even if I did, I really am not skilled at expressing technique in words. Feeling to words translation is tough for me. But, I am willing to try.

 

So can we all start to shift the focus of Ride Well away from accidents to Riding Well?

 

I’d love to hear your thoughts about Ride Well becoming less of a place to tell about the latest crash story and more of a place to learn something new in your personal pursuit of becoming a better rider.

 

[Firefight911]

Very well stated Greg!

 

Afterall, the description of this sub forum is about judgment and riding skills.

[David]

Greg, when this forum was started, the express purpose for doing so was as you stated.

[Whip]

Okay....

 

I'll go first.

[Selden]

I suspect there is a spike in this sort of discussion every spring. Before returning to our regularly scheduled programming, I just remembered my favorite crash, which I will put in the "ride well" category.

 

A drizzly day in rural France, September 1965. A farmer on a tractor is coming my way, pulling a wagon, maybe 10-15 km/hour. A large truck pulls out to pass the farmer. With mid-60's skinny, hard rubber, there's no way I'm going to stop in time to avoid becoming road kill, so I leave the road and aim for a huge haystack. Hay flies everywhere, and I come to a halt upright, some distance into the stack. Everybody, including the gendarme (who was riding an airhead, of course), had a good laugh -- I must have resembled a scarecrow -- and I was finding hay in odd locations for several days afterward.

[Whip]

There....

 

Flame suit on...

[upflying]

I believe there is a nexus between riding well and accidents. If you don't ride well, you might have an accident. Those of us who survived an accident can share those experiences so others can ride well. Would I be too modest to suggest many ride well discussions have their origins in accidents?

[Limecreek]

I believe there is a nexus between riding well and accidents. If you don't ride well, you might have an accident. Those of us who survived an accident can share those experiences so others can ride well. Would I be too modest to suggest many ride well discussions have their origins in accidents?

 

Of course accidents and the analysis of those accidents have a place in riding well discussions. It just seems that more and more of the disucssions that start with the topic of an accident, take up a defensive view of riding well vs. an offensive view. I'd rather talk about what to do in the pursuit of smoother, faster riding vs. things we do that lead to accidents.

 

Yes there is linkage, but my preference is to start the conversation with--I had a great ride today, I tried something different, it worked, here is what I did and this was the result.

[Paul Mihalka]

OK, to give Limecreek what he asks for, even if it starts with describing a accident - not mine. Years back two friends riding together (very good experienced riders) were traveling at sporty speeds. Nice long straight, may be even a passing zone. In front a agricultural tractor with a trailer. Both pulled out to pass. At this point the tractor turned left into a field. They both had bad accidents.

Morale of the story: If something (tractor, truck, bike, grandma in the Buick) goes slow enough to turn left, IT PROBABLY WILL! Be VERY careful passing very slow vehicles...

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I'd love to hear your thoughts about Ride Well becoming less of a place to tell about the latest crash story and more of a place to learn something new in your personal pursuit of becoming a better rider.

 

It does seem to be a more informative place when there are discussions of riding technique rather than simply the latest "how to avoid crashing like this" thread.

 

Two ways that used to happen:

 

1. People seeking to ride better came here with questions and generally got plenty of advice.

 

2. Experienced riders started threads offering unsolicited advice - either generally speaking, or else related to a particular experience they had recently gone through.

 

In either case, a good discussion generally resulted.

 

Are you looking for more of #1, more of #2, or more of both?

[Bill_Walker]

I think accident post-mortems have their place here, _provided_ they include the lessons learned from said accident. Just listing the accident is useless unless you also describe what you did wrong, or what you could have/should have done to avoid it. They're especially valuable if they illustrate non-obvious situations.

[Limecreek]

Two ways that used to happen:

 

1. People seeking to ride better came here with questions and generally got plenty of advice.

 

2. Experienced riders started threads offering unsolicited advice - either generally speaking, or else related to a particular experience they had recently gone through.

 

In either case, a good discussion generally resulted.

 

Are you looking for more of #1, more of #2, or more of both?

 

 

I am looking for more of both. We definitely need more of #2 and we need to figure out a way to get more of #1. Riders need a friendly place to ask questions and get answers that will take their skill level up a notch or two.

 

[VinnyR11]

Here's an opinion, and to the OP, hopefully helpful info.

 

I think "ride well" information on forums eventually becomes repetitious if you consider the tons of information already available and better sorted. There are so many excellent books out there with great insight, and I think that's an excellent way for people to learn to ride better.

 

So here's some "unsolicited advice":

 

Read, study and practice using the following books. I'd recommend them in this order.

 

David Hough's books Proficient Motorcycling and More Proficient Motorcycling.

 

Keith Code's "A Twist of the Wrist", and "A Twist of the Wrist II" If you like those, his "Total Control" is also good.

 

There are plenty others available, but those are the ones I liked best.

 

Forget the dough on farkles and save up whatever you can to get to a track school. I attended Code's Superbike school, but many others have been recommended by others on these forums. Of all the money I've spent on motorcycling that was far and away the best bang for the buck as it relates to "riding well".

 

 

 

 

[Nice n Easy Rider]

I think accident post-mortems have their place here, _provided_ they include the lessons learned from said accident. Just listing the accident is useless unless you also describe what you did wrong, or what you could have/should have done to avoid it. They're especially valuable if they illustrate non-obvious situations.

 

I've been fortunate enough (knock on wood) to be accident free during 30+ years of riding although I'm sure that I don't ride as far, as hard, or as fast as some (most) of you who post on this board. But I appreciate those who have posted about previous accidents and why they think they happened. By making me aware of situations that led to your accidents you might allow me to avoid one myself if/when I encounter a similar situation. So I do believe that sharing these experiences does often provide a true learning experience if the reader takes time to think about it.

 

To those who have shared, thank you.

[Selden]

I think accident post-mortems have their place here, _provided_ they include the lessons learned from said accident. Just listing the accident is useless unless you also describe what you did wrong, or what you could have/should have done to avoid it. They're especially valuable if they illustrate non-obvious situations.

Absolutely. In that vein, I tipped the RT while lifting it to the center stand Thursday. For some reason, I hesitated mid-lift, and decided to start over.

 

Lesson learned: If you're putting a bike on the centerstand, do it without hesitation. Due to good design, an R1100RT is actually a fairly easy bike to lift to the centerstand, but it's still a significant amount of mass to wrestle with.

 

No harm done, except to my pride. This was the first time in 48 years of riding that a bike has actually gotten away from me in this situation. There is a first time for everything.

[Survived-til-now]

Limecreek

 

You may have noticed a thread looking suspiciously like yours but seeking Top Tips.....

 

I thought I'd do a bit of independent research on your behalf and my conclusion (in answer to your question) is that members are not that interested in reading tips for better riding but do like to read about each others' crashes.

 

Question is ... Why? Is it morbid voyeurism or perhaps it is that motorcycling is inherently dangerous, most know but don't want to admit it and by reading how others crash they build up a fatalistic/excuse mindset..... If it could happen to Bill (or Joe) it could happen to anyone.. If this or that caused a crash then it could not have been avoided AND it won't be my fault when it happens to me! They probably have headstones already prepared (date blank) with the epitaph "It wasn't his fault he died!"

 

Psychologists to the front please..

[Quinn]

Limecreek

 

You may have noticed a thread looking suspiciously like yours but seeking Top Tips.....

 

I thought I'd do a bit of independent research on your behalf and my conclusion (in answer to your question) is that members are not that interested in reading tips for better riding but do like to read about each others' crashes.

 

Question is ... Why? Is it morbid voyeurism or perhaps it is that motorcycling is inherently dangerous, most know but don't want to admit it and by reading how others crash they build up a fatalistic/excuse mindset..... If it could happen to Bill (or Joe) it could happen to anyone.. If this or that caused a crash then it could not have been avoided AND it won't be my fault when it happens to me! They probably have headstones already prepared (date blank) with the epitaph "It wasn't his fault he died!"

 

Psychologists to the front please..

 

 

My wife is going to buy me a headstone with "I told him so" on it.

 

---

 

 

 

[4wheeldog]

In high school geometry (Or was it trigonometry?) we were taught that between any two points on a line, there were an infinite number of other points........Our conclusion, (The group I hung with, anyway), was, if you made it through the last corner, you could have gone faster.

 

(Thank you, Mr. Hugh Louderback......We always called it Louderback's law). I learned a long time ago that it was pointless to push Louderback's law, but it is good to keep in mind.

[Limecreek]

Limecreek

You may have noticed a thread looking suspiciously like yours but seeking Top Tips.....

Thanks for the effort! This is a community and I am just one lone voice here. I'd prefer accident discussions go in some other category--one we do not have today. Clearly other community members prefer to discuss how to avoid accidents, errors in judgment and errors in technique that resulted in an accident or near miss. As I age, I'd love to hear how other aging riders overcome all those things that conspire against us to diminish our skills. Do skillful riding techniques change with age, or do we just have to do the same things at a slower pace?

 

Anyway--thanks again. Cheers!

[steve.foote]

That's an interesting observation, Greg. I think your point is relevent.

[David13]

I want to read the accident tale of each and every person on this forum. I don't care if it's in Ride Well, or Crash Well, or Accidents or Learn Your Lesson the Easy Way - by Reading About It.

But I want to read about it, analyze it, and try to avoid doing the same myself.

I want to know each and every pitfall that each of you has fallen into, so that I might avoid it.

Maybe others will benefit too.

dc

[ratfink]

+1

 

I might be a little dense but some of the ride well theory is over my head, especially when it results in much controversy.

 

The crash stuff is easy for me to visualize and is relevant to my own experiences. No matter what category it ends up in, I hope it will remain welcome.

[Ken H.]

Accidents? I'd rather read or talk about tips for skillful riding. Accident post mortems have their place—I guess, but isn’t this Ride Well?

 

Ride Well should be a place to share tips in the pursuit of building skills—a place to help us all sift our current average a little more to the right.

 

So can we all start to shift the focus of Ride Well away from accidents to Riding Well?

 

I’d love to hear your thoughts about Ride Well becoming less of a place to tell about the latest crash story and more of a place to learn something new in your personal pursuit of becoming a better rider.

I don’t know... at the moment there are current threads on - cross controlling, evasive maneuvering, RPM choices in the twisties, where do you look, and slow riding techniques, just to name a few. Seems like “Ride Well” kind of stuff to me.

[Indy Dave]

Accidents? I'd rather read or talk about tips for skillful riding. Accident post mortems have their place—I guess, but isn’t this Ride Well?

 

Ride Well should be a place to share tips in the pursuit of building skills—a place to help us all sift our current average a little more to the right.

 

So can we all start to shift the focus of Ride Well away from accidents to Riding Well?

 

I’d love to hear your thoughts about Ride Well becoming less of a place to tell about the latest crash story and more of a place to learn something new in your personal pursuit of becoming a better rider.

I don’t know... at the moment there are current threads on - cross controlling, evasive maneuvering, RPM choices in the twisties, where do you look, and slow riding techniques, just to name a few. Seems like “Ride Well” kind of stuff to me.

 

+ 1. I think there have been many great threads here on riding well. I know I have gained greatly from the wisdom of many posters on threads here about riding.

[philbytx]

Hey Greg!

 

Slower pace with age? You gotta be kidding!!!

 

OK, here's my 2 cents.

 

I continue to "survive" by utilizing skills absorbed/learned over the years coupled with improved judgement and increased wisdom.

 

Ones judgement isn't usually affected unless your senses and/or abilities have deteriorated to a point where you are dangerous, firstly, to YOURSELF! Wisdom should then allow you to examine any judgemental lapses then isolate and address the issues.

 

I went through the above scenario several years ago, due to health issues, and had to address my continuing flying. After 30 years, a very tough and emotional decision but I chose, voluntarily, to quit flying. Judgement and wisdom to the fore.

 

I find I have NOT changed technique nor slowed down "with age".

I still feel the need for speed but now only apply it "appropriately" (wisdom and judgement!!).

I still do not worry about nor fear the "unknown" nor feel my mortality, at least not any more than I used to .

 

By the unknown, I mean all road hazards including deer! I go out every day as best prepared as I can be (bike in good condition, ATGATT etc), looking forward to a great ride and do not clutter my mind worrying about things that I cannot foresee nor, indeed, change.

 

Starting riding at 15, still here at 62 and enjoying every moment on two wheels. What joy! Riding the Texas Hill Country to and from work this week, 30 miles each way Kerrville to Bandera !