I kinda like front end dive...

[BanjoBoy]

After selling my sweet R1200ST 5 weeks ago, I dun bought an '07 FJR. Even though I managed to roll up 18,000 mi on the ST without tossing it down the road, and even with the Wilbers shock up front, I never really seemed to get much feed back from the front tire. (It always felt numb down there. (Like part of my anatomy!)

Now with the big heavy FJR, and it's conventional forks, I can feel exactly what the front tire is doing, and it's amazing how fast this pig can stop!

After threshold braking both bikes, (This includes abs usage) I think the ST beats the FJR on smooth pavement, but on bumpy roads, (Typical where I live) I can stop the FJR better. The front tire tracks over bumps better, and the conventional forks seem to give better feed back, enabling easier threshold braking, and control.

Guess it's just what you're used too?

 

[AviP]

Too bad about your anatomy, but I'm glad you are having a better experience with your ride.

[Mister Tee]

A conventional fork suspension does have less unsprung weight than the BMW suspension, so I suspect that has something to do with it.

[Whip]

+1

 

Where did I leave that FJR again????

 

 

[MAT2CHI]

Those bumps you're talking about were actually squirrels - I saw them limp away after you almost ran them over.

[russell_bynum]

After selling my sweet R1200ST 5 weeks ago, I dun bought an '07 FJR. Even though I managed to roll up 18,000 mi on the ST without tossing it down the road, and even with the Wilbers shock up front, I never really seemed to get much feed back from the front tire. (It always felt numb down there. (Like part of my anatomy!)

Now with the big heavy FJR, and it's conventional forks, I can feel exactly what the front tire is doing, and it's amazing how fast this pig can stop!

After threshold braking both bikes, (This includes abs usage) I think the ST beats the FJR on smooth pavement, but on bumpy roads, (Typical where I live) I can stop the FJR better. The front tire tracks over bumps better, and the conventional forks seem to give better feed back, enabling easier threshold braking, and control.

Guess it's just what you're used too?

 

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

Mind you....very few people (myself included) push hard enough for that to really make any difference. It's really just a perception thing vs an actual problem. But since perception is reality....

 

 

[tallman]

Glad you're happy.

Here's a link to a recent comparison of the BMW, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph sport tourers.

 

Here are some brake test results.

link

 

And one of the older standbys.

MSF brake test (inc BMW and FJR)

[BanjoBoy]

Too bad about your anatomy, but I'm glad you are having a better experience with your ride.

Yea well, noth'in lasts forever!

A conventional fork suspension does have less unsprung weight than the BMW suspension, so I suspect that has something to do with it.

Exactly!!! With my scrawny ass on board, and a light fuel load, while braking hard the front would just bounce off bumps even with the Wilbers. On smoother pavement it wasn't an issue. It probably doesn't effect the RT or GT, since the ST is so light, you really notice it. But when the lucky Mrs. has all 3 bags loaded on the ST, and we have a full tack of gas, the TeleLever really has an advantage. (The heavier the bike, the less of an issue un-sprung weight is) We haven't loaded down the FJR yet, but when we do, I know I'll have to start spin'in those those little knobs on top the forks.

Those bumps you're talking about were actually squirrels - I saw them limp away after you almost ran them over.

Them squirrels is for supper!

After selling my sweet R1200ST 5 weeks ago, I dun bought an '07 FJR. Even though I managed to roll up 18,000 mi on the ST without tossing it down the road, and even with the Wilbers shock up front, I never really seemed to get much feed back from the front tire. (It always felt numb down there. (Like part of my anatomy!)

Now with the big heavy FJR, and it's conventional forks, I can feel exactly what the front tire is doing, and it's amazing how fast this pig can stop!

After threshold braking both bikes, (This includes abs usage) I think the ST beats the FJR on smooth pavement, but on bumpy roads, (Typical where I live) I can stop the FJR better. The front tire tracks over bumps better, and the conventional forks seem to give better feed back, enabling easier threshold braking, and control.

Guess it's just what you're used too?

 

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

Mind you....very few people (myself included) push hard enough for that to really make any difference. It's really just a perception thing vs an actual problem. But since perception is reality....

Yeah, it's more of what you're used too. The ST would rail nicely through corners, and there were a few times I did loose the front, and had enough feed back to recover. But for me anyway, having good feed back from the front end is important. (Whether that's right or wrong?)

in just 700 mi I'm getting the pegs down in the dead of winter up here. Same with threshold braking; it's much easier to brake at the limit (For me anyway) when you know exactly what the front contact patch is doing.

I ain't complaining, I just find it fascinating how TeleLevers work compared to traditional forks. (Actually how motos work has always fascinated me, that's why I'm addicted to 'em!) Each system has advantages and disadvantages, understanding these things helps to make us better riders.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

I'll confess to being only halfway there, in that I've never spent much time on a bike with a "really good" front end; so far most of my miles were on my 1100RT, with another 6K on my 1200RT. Only done a few miles on other people's bikes, not enough to try any serious braking.

 

Assuming both bikes are decelerating at the same rate, what exactly are you feeling in these other bikes that's missing from a Telelever-equipped bike?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

At least for the braking part, there isn't a heck of a lot of difference other than front end dive gives a bit of an indicator of how close you are to the threshold. When comparing the reaction of my 1100S to the Tuono or Sprint, none equipped with ABS, I would say I can feel the tire begin to squirm a bit on the Tuono, Sprint is a bit less sensitive and the 1100S even less so. How much of that feedback is due to tires, I couldn't tell you as each had/has different tires aboard.

 

Now as far as cornering, the order remains the same in terms of feedback. The Tuono gives almost too much information. Sprint will sense when I'm near the limit and the 1100S never felt quite that inspiring. I'm actually the most aggressive on the Sprint at the moment and can use all of the tire with complete confidence. The Tuono is a little less confidence inspiring but I'm pretty sure that is just me not used to all the feedback. Been to long since I owned the 1100S and worked it very hard.

 

I've tucked the front a couple of times on other bikes and managed to save the crash. At the speeds the new bikes and tires are capable of cornering on clean, dry pavement, I doubt a save would be in order anymore.

[Polo]

Glad you're happy.

Here's a link to a recent comparison of the BMW, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Triumph sport tourers.

 

Here are some brake test results.

link

 

And one of the older standbys.

MSF brake test (inc BMW and FJR)

 

The results showing the BMW with just the rear brake seem excessive. Or am I not seeing something?

[tallman]

In the one test the BMW was the only one where just the rear brake was activated, the other bikes also linked partial front brake when using the rear brake pedal.

[russell_bynum]

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

I'll confess to being only halfway there, in that I've never spent much time on a bike with a "really good" front end; so far most of my miles were on my 1100RT, with another 6K on my 1200RT. Only done a few miles on other people's bikes, not enough to try any serious braking.

 

Assuming both bikes are decelerating at the same rate, what exactly are you feeling in these other bikes that's missing from a Telelever-equipped bike?

 

It's hard to explain it, but here's a good automotive parallel. Remember American cars from the late 70's and early 80's (or the Toyota Camry today) and the way the steering feels? Power steering was always WAY overboosted and you had no idea what the front end of the car was doing.

 

Compare that with a modern sports car where you know exactly what the tires are doing by the feedback you're getting through the steering wheel. Push the car into a turn hard and you'll feel the tension on the wheel lessen slightly as the front tires start to slip.

 

That's the difference with a conventional front end and the telelever. I never had any complaints about it with the bike straight up and down...in fact I always liked the way the suspension stayed more compliant under braking. But with the bike leaned over, the front end is just numb. Mostly I think that's because nothing important is happening, so there's nothing important to feed back...but after riding my CBR and the Tuono...both of which have very good front ends, it felt disconcerting not to have the front end saying "Everything's fine....still fine......still fine......no worries....still fine" throughout the corner.

 

 

[Polo]

That is a misnomer then. It makes sense.

[motoguy128]

I've personally foudn the opposite when comparing my BMW's to previous sportbieks wiht conventional forks. While there sportbikes had more front end feel, they had a harsh ride and were a handful on bumpy roads. Some of this may be due to differences in weight or the ratio of unsprung weight to total weight.

 

But overall, I find my RT to perform much better under hard braking over uneven trrain, especailly with a passenger and luggage.

 

Front end dive just makes the rear end light and squirrley...just like some compact cars I've owned.

 

But, I would agree, that on a racetrack with smooth pavement, I would prefer conventional forks. I could trail brake and ride the bike much more aggressively. But on the street, I prefer the BMW front end set-up.

 

I'll also add, that when trying to change direction while braking, the BMW seems to be more willing steer. Especially over bumps.

[rad]

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

It never bugged me on my previous three Oil Heads. Now that I'm back on an Oil Head, this time I have found it harder to adjust to the front end. I really struggle to tell what the front is doing. It could be because I have spent the last 5 years on a VFR. Having said that, I will still take the telelever over a standard sprung suspension, due to its other strengths.

[russell_bynum]

Lack of front end feel is one of the main drawbacks of the telelever. It never bothered me until I got a bike with a really good front end. After that, the vague feel really bugged me.

 

It never bugged me on my previous three Oil Heads. Now that I'm back on an Oil Head, this time I have found it harder to adjust to the front end. I really struggle to tell what the front is doing. It could be because I have spent the last 5 years on a VFR. Having said that, I will still take the telelever over a standard sprung suspension, due to its other strengths.

 

Yeah. Like I said...it really isn't a problem in normal everyday riding. And the Telelever _does_ keep the suspension working and compliant under hard braking, which is a very worthwhile thing. It's really just a perception thing. If you're used to the bike constantly telling you that everything's fine...and then you get on a bike that just sits there quietly, it can be disconcerting.

 

 

[lvnvbiker]

Being able to out break and go way deeper than the squids in the twisty spots around here on the GSA in the ultimate old guy wear (high vis, and overpants) and pull them on the exits is so fun. It kills them to be spanked by a grandpa bike in thier eyes, but then the ones that I spank think a r6 is a drag bike cause they sure dont get it laid over like I can the GS...

[BanjoBoy]

Being able to out break and go way deeper than the squids in the twisty spots around here on the GSA in the ultimate old guy wear (high vis, and overpants) and pull them on the exits is so fun. It kills them to be spanked by a grandpa bike in thier eyes, but then the ones that I spank think a r6 is a drag bike cause they sure dont get it laid over like I can the GS...

You got that right, rider ability is the most important part of the equation. A lot of them fellers on sport bikes are mere posers and don't posses much skillz anyway.

I'm just fascinated by the Tele/DuoLever with their strengths and weaknesses compared to "conventional" forks.

 

[Mister Tee]

I'm one of those people that jumps back and forth between a sportbike and an RT.

 

My gsxr has inverted forks, and a low rake angle which necessitates a steering dampener to manage headshakes at high speeds. The combination makes for superb high speed handling that is planted on the road, and truck like steering at low to moderate speeds.

 

The RT, on the other hand, "flicks" around much easier, and is a lot more light at low to moderate speeds, and has perfectly acceptable handling at high speeds (at least as fast as the bike will go), and no tendency for oscillations that I have experienced.

 

That said, suspension tuning is key. I have the stock ESA suspension on my RT (yes it still works) and the handling difference between sport, normal and comfort is significant. Most of the roads in my area are fairly "good" but there are occasionally "bad" ones with a lot of potholes. Point Reyes Station road to the lighthouse on Point Reyes is a prime example - I put my ESA in to "comfort" mode and the handling on a really bad road surface improves dramatically, even though it otherwise feels like jello on a smooth road. Suspension component and tuning differences can be as significant as bike model to bike model differences, in terms of handling.

 

Feel and performance can be two different things though. I like the feel of the steering on my RT better than I like the feel of the steering on my gsxr at any speed, but when it comes down to it, the gsxr just tracks better and sticks better once you enter the triple digits.

[MAT2CHI]

You got that right, rider ability is the most important part of the equation. A lot of them fellers on sport bikes are mere posers and don't posses much skillz anyway.

I'm just fascinated by the Tele/DuoLever with their strengths and weaknesses compared to "conventional" forks.

 

I used to embarrass a few sporty type riders on my old DR350SM and I ain't all that good.

[BanjoBoy]

 

Most of the roads in my area are fairly "good" but there are occasionally "bad" ones with a lot of potholes. Point Reyes Station road to the lighthouse on Point Reyes is a prime example - I put my ESA in to "comfort" mode and the handling on a really bad road surface improves dramatically, even though it otherwise feels like jello on a smooth road. Suspension component and tuning differences can be as significant as bike model to bike model differences, in terms of handling. Point Reyes Station road to the lighthouse is the kind of road I frequent, and with the ST, the front would just bounce off bumps and potholes even while being set up fairly "soft." Like you wrote before, it's about the un-sprung weight.

When ever I'm checking out some hot young babe, my wife/sister always tells me; "Be careful or you might get what you wish for."

I've always ""wished for" lighter bikes, but with the ST the lack of weight was actually a hindrance. The bike always worked best with a full fuel load, and two of us with all our "stuff" on board. And I think that's where the TeleLever really shines.

 

Feel and performance can be two different things though. I like the feel of the steering on my RT better than I like the feel of the steering on my gsxr at any speed, but when it comes down to it, the gsxr just tracks better and sticks better once you enter the triple digits. That's right the RT does feel real light at lower speeds. (Thanks to the TeleLever)

But what about road feel, do you feel the road, (Contact patch) better with the GSXR or RT?

You got that right, rider ability is the most important part of the equation. A lot of them fellers on sport bikes are mere posers and don't posses much skillz anyway.

I'm just fascinated by the Tele/DuoLever with their strengths and weaknesses compared to "conventional" forks.

 

I used to embarrass a few sporty type riders on my old DR350SM and I ain't all that good.

And how would you compare road "feel" between the DR and RT? (2 similar bikes )

[Mister Tee]

I get more feedback from a change in pavement or traction from the RT, which is a function of the lighter steering. The gsxr suspension, however, sticks to the road better.

 

Having not ridden an ST, I can't comment on the performance on rough roads. The RT is heavy enough that front suspension movement is pretty well damped out. The Telelever suspension probably performs better on relatively heavy bikes. There is a reason why BMW went to a conventional inverted fork suspension on the 1000RR.

[MAT2CHI]

You got that right, rider ability is the most important part of the equation. A lot of them fellers on sport bikes are mere posers and don't posses much skillz anyway.

I'm just fascinated by the Tele/DuoLever with their strengths and weaknesses compared to "conventional" forks.

 

I used to embarrass a few sporty type riders on my old DR350SM and I ain't all that good.

And how would you compare road "feel" between the DR and RT? (2 similar bikes )

 

The DR had a lighter feel than the RT, but the Husky can out handle them both up here!

 

[Indy Dave]

When ever I'm checking out some hot young babe, my wife/sister always tells me; "Be careful or you might get what you wish for."

 

1. What happened to "feeling numb" down below?!

 

2. Found the pegs already, huh? Quit your braggin' and show us a picture already!

[BanjoBoy]

When ever I'm checking out some hot young babe, my wife/sister always tells me; "Be careful or you might get what you wish for."

 

1. What happened to "feeling numb" down below?! Noth'in lasts forever!

 

2. Found the pegs already, huh? Quit your braggin' and show us a picture already!

Hey this is the internet isn't it?

I don't know that it's brag'in these FJRs are real low anyway, but have'in feel'ins in the front end gives me confidence!

 

[Deek]

"... But on the street, I prefer the BMW front end set-up..."

 

That, ABS and cruise make me love my RT! I cannot thing of another motorcycle that has those together (OEM).

[Indy Dave]

When ever I'm checking out some hot young babe, my wife/sister always tells me; "Be careful or you might get what you wish for."

 

1. What happened to "feeling numb" down below?! Noth'in lasts forever!

 

but have'in feel'ins in the front end gives me confidence![/color]

 

 

I can see how that might tend to take the numbness away, Andy!