RPMs Through the Twisties

[adlera]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am 'green' to the site, relatively 'green' to riding and even 'greener' to my '09 R1200RT. I have been reading many posts and I am happy to find such an active & friendly forum in STs. With that said, here is my question:

 

I love the idea of the twisties, but still get nervous as I approach them. I have found that the higher RPMs help stable the bike through turns. Is this a false impression? What RPMs do you run at through the turns?

 

Any help from everyone is greatly appreciated!!

 

Thanks All!!

 

[Antimatter]

I generally run a bit higher RPM when going through corners, mostly because I prefer to use the engine to pick the bike up as I exit a corner. That's easier to do when the bike is ridden closer to the peak of the torque curve then down low. Of course, one of the advantages of riding an opposed twin is the wonderfully flat torque curve, meaning I don't have to worry about engine RPM as I do when I'm riding my inline four.

 

If you're nervous about riding twisty roads, why not sign up for some closed course work? There are a number of wonderful riding programs that would allow you to bring your motorcycle to a track and work on cornering technique.

[bmurphypdx]

Seems to me that if you are nervous going into the twisties you might be flying a bit faster than is appropriate for your skill level. If you put a priority on choosing the right track through the turns and adjust your speed accordingly (slower at first) you will find that, over a short time, you will become more comfortable with the turns and your speed will go higher.

 

As to your original question, you need to ensure you have adequate reserve torque available to you as you go through the turns. If you are running at high RPMs you have little or nothing left to work with if you need to compensate partway through a turn (unless you downshift midway through a turn which is not generally a good practice). On the other hand, you do not want to lug the engine as you do not want your engine to falter partway through a turn. A particular number is hard to state because that will depend on your speed, what gear you are in, level uphill or downhill, etc. etc. My bike (07 R1200ST) lugs below 3500 RPM and has less torque above 5000 RPM. That's quite a range.

[OoPEZoO]

First off.....welcome to the forum. If I had to pull out general numbers

 

I never ride below 4k RPM......period. In the twisties I ride up in top 1/3 of the tach (regardless of the speed).

 

When riding the tight stuff, the extra RPM really help steady the bike while giving you more control with the throttle. It also allows you to smoothly use the natural engine braking of the boxer motor.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

Hi adlera! And a warm welcome to you!

 

You are VERY WISE to ask these questions.

 

I know that there are many here that have great knowledge on this subject. I'm with with our beloved rubber chicken man. I also "tend" to keep my RPM'S at or over 4000. If my RPM is dropping below that at the slowest portion of the curve, I feel that I was in to high a gear going into the curve. However, if I'm working to run faster and have it on a boil so to speak,My RPM should not drop below 6000 at the lowest point.

 

Recommendations that you get some formal training are "right on"!

You should never ride nervous!!! As your abilities increase you can go faster and not feel that way. Listen to that little voice. It can save your life.

 

All the best!

 

Dave

Hi Everyone,

 

I am 'green' to the site, relatively 'green' to riding and even 'greener' to my '09 R1200RT. I have been reading many posts and I am happy to find such an active & friendly forum in STs. With that said, here is my question:

 

I love the idea of the twisties, but still get nervous as I approach them. I have found that the higher RPMs help stable the bike through turns. Is this a false impression? What RPMs do you run at through the turns?

 

Any help from everyone is greatly appreciated!!

 

Thanks All!!

[Vistavette]

I generally run a bit higher RPM when going through corners, mostly because I prefer to use the engine to pick the bike up as I exit a corner. That's easier to do when the bike is ridden closer to the peak of the torque curve then down low. Of course, one of the advantages of riding an opposed twin is the wonderfully flat torque curve, meaning I don't have to worry about engine RPM as I do when I'm riding my inline four.

 

If you're nervous about riding twisty roads, why not sign up for some closed course work? There are a number of wonderful riding programs that would allow you to bring your motorcycle to a track and work on cornering technique.

 

Where do you find programs like this?

[Jeepster]

Where do you find programs like this?

That really depends on where you live. They are usually held at your nearest road racing course.

I will also add that if you have not already read them. Pick up any or all books by David Hough or Keith Code.

"Proficient Motorcycling" and "Twist of the Wrist" should be part of the state M/C licensing training.

BTW Welcome to the board. And personally I try and stay over 3500 RPM.

[motoguy128]

I think it depends a lot on the road, what mood I'm in and what I'm trying to accomplish. Meaning am I really out there carving up the corners I might use 3rd gear depending on how tight the turns are. If it's really tight, then I'm using 2nd and might even just stay in 2nd.

 

IF I'm jsut out crusing and there are sweepers, I might use 4th or 5th gear. I never use 6th under 60mph so most of hte time on 2 lane roads I'm in 5th and I'll drop ot 4th if the road tightens up.

 

To be Honest, I don't pay clsoe attention ot what RPM I'm in. I choose hte gar based on how much accelration I want or how responsive I want the biek to be.

 

hte donwside of using a shorter gear, if you're not riding aggressively, is the throttle is much more repsonsive, so if you're 2-up on a relaxing ride, it takes more work to ride smoothly in a lower gear... and 2-up I'm not sually trying to toss my wife around and blast out of the corners. its' all about being smooth and relaxed.

 

 

In gernal hwoever, hte biek is pretty happy at 3500-400RPM. I get some vibration in the 4000 range. Above 5000 the bike is "chomping at the bit" in the meat of the torque curve, so I'm not going ot keep the biek revving just to roll "casually" through some sweepers. Crusing in hte twisties at 5000RPM on a R-bike is like running along at 10,000 RPM on a sportbike. You don't use those kind of revs unless you need them. It gets a bit tiring.

[adlera]

I appreciate the response everyone. Neil, I will call around for the appropriate training and get the books.

 

Keep the feedback coming. Thanks again!!

 

 

[Jim Moore]

I notice you're in Vegas. Here ya go.

 

http://www.yamahachampionsridingschool.com/index.php/yamaha-motorcycle-riding-schools/yamaha-champions-graduate-riding-school

[jaytee]

I have a little bit different take on this... Especially for a newer rider, try keeping the RPM's at the minimum that your engine runs smoothly - in the case of the 1200 boxer I would say 3500-4000 is the sweet spot. The reason for this is two-fold: first, newer riders tend to chop the throttle in response to feeling slightly fast in a turn instead of leaning more. The higher your RPM when you do this the more you will upset the bike's suspension due to aggressive engine braking. Secondly, it leaves you plenty of reserve power in a given gear to accelerate out of the turn (picking up the bike, as was stated before).

 

The 1200 has plenty of power even at lower rpms, so don't be afraid to keep the rpm's at the lower of the usable range.

 

JT

[rad]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am 'green' to the site, relatively 'green' to riding and even 'greener' to my '09 R1200RT.

 

Hey Tony

 

I have been riding forever and teaching MSF for about 10 years and I will say; you state you’re new to riding, then twisties should make you nervous, that is a good thing. If they did not I would worry. Your very natural anxiety will start to fade in direct proportion to your gaining experience riding in curves. There is really no substitute for that riding experience.

As a new rider RPM is really not an issue as long as you are someplace in the power band. For you it really is just about selecting a proper entry speed. Experience will teach you that.

 

I am assuming you did take a basic riding course, correct?

 

Relax, enjoy, and ride safe.

 

[adlera]

Hi Rad,

 

Thanks for your response. I did take the MSF class. I also have the 'Ride Like a Pro V' video and have practiced the exercises (not as much as I would have liked). I feel very comfortable in slower maneuvers and on the bike in general. I do, however, feel that bit of anxiety when approaching those twisties.

 

Thanks again!

[adlera]

I notice you're in Vegas. Here ya go.

 

http://www.yamahachampionsridingschool.com/index.php/yamaha-motorcycle-riding-schools/yamaha-champions-graduate-riding-school

 

Thanks Jim! I will check it out.

[rad]

Hi Rad,

 

Thanks for your response. ..................

 

You’re welcome.

 

I envy where you are in your riding career. I remember that time many years ago. So much was new, exciting and it was/is fun to learn. Like most activities, we learn our entire lives. Keep asking questions and keep riding.

[Dundee387]

When you say twisties, I am assuming secondary roadway.. Lower speed limits, limited line of sight through the corners, etc. In this situation, I usually stay in 2nd. gear, if there is a straight away section, maybe get into 3rd. In general 4 to 6 thousand RPM's.

 

I always ride above 4k. I like the feeling of having the power there for the unexpected.... Setting up your entry speed is the difference between a good day, and a bad one.

 

Welcome! Have fun, and be safe.

[Penforhire]

I keep my RPM lower when I'm learning about a new bike, short-shifting. Keeps me out of trouble. The RT doesn't have pavement ripping power (to me) so it made a much bigger difference when learning how to wring out my FJR.

 

Higher RPM means you get more engine braking when you back off the throttle but that's not always a good thing. That can cause a rear wheel lock-up and brakes are cheaper to maintain or fix than engines or clutches.

 

Even after I'm comfy with the bike's handling and raise my shift points to hustle faster down the road, there are days when my throttle hand isn't as smooth (too much coffe? not enough sleep? who knows) and I intentionally back off and up-shift earlier.

[jimfastcar]

I did Jim Ford's course a couple of years ago, and plan to go back for a refresher sometime (hopefully soon)

Two most important lessons were the Vanishing point and riding in the sweet zone - read about it on his website

A little far for someone in NV, but very worthwhile for anyone

 

www.ridersworkshop.com

 

[Hollow Road Rider]

Welcome, and you were smart to visit this site and start asking questions.

I am a fairly new member who returned to riding at age 60, and I have learned a ton from frequent visits to this site in the past 4 months.

 

You should also check out Total Control by Lee Parks. This book and the previous books mentioned, have been my only reads all winter.

[adlera]

First off.....welcome to the forum. If I had to pull out general numbers

 

I never ride below 4k RPM......period. In the twisties I ride up in top 1/3 of the tach (regardless of the speed).

 

When riding the tight stuff, the extra RPM really help steady the bike while giving you more control with the throttle. It also allows you to smoothly use the natural engine braking of the boxer motor.

Thanks for chiming in Chicken Man. I used your advice (along with everyone elses) this past weekend on a trip to CA back roads. It was the most fun riding I have had yet.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

When in the twisties, or even most sweepers, I find second gear to be the most fun. On the Tuono, that's anywhere from 26 to 91 mph. The Sprint it's 25 to 84.

 

The Tuono has a slipper clutch so I don't have to worry about the rear misbehaving, the Triumph not so much.

 

This way, it is easy to control entry speeds and modulate acceleration out of the turns. I'll admit that I rarely get to full throttle, especially on the Tuono as second gear + full throttle + anything over 60 mph results in a lurid wheelie.

[ratfink]

Hi Adlera:

 

Welcome to the site, your question and these answers really got me thinking. I don't know how many RPM I use in twisties. I don't look at the tach much. I guess I am mostly riding by feel and sound.

 

I try to keep my head up and look through the curve at where I want to go and if riding in a group, keep in mind what the guy ahead is doing but not to the point I will follow him into trouble, hope that makes sense. So I guess I am pretty much ignoring the Tachymeter.

 

I would say that 4-6k rpm is probably about right for my RT, quite abit higheron my Strom. On an uphill grade definitely in the higher end of the range.

 

 

 

 

r

 

[KROWBAR]

I was out at Deal's Gap/ Route 28 for the first time in NOV 2008. Was having "issues" with the twisties. Was talking with my friends about it a lunch. Guy came over and said try taking them a gear lower i.e. higher RPMs. Worked for me. Running 4.5-5K RPM's. Could slow down easier without braking and could pull better out of the turns. Was on an F-650GS (twin).

[Mark Mayo]

Just got back from a 2 day, 740 mile ride from Long Beach to Point Lobos and back using Highway 1 whenever possible. I too like to ride the twisties at higher rpms. It makes me feel safer and able to correct for the road better. Highway one gives you miles and miles of curves with hills.

 

To me you are already wise in the use of your bike!

 

 

[Twisties]

Welcome to the board!

 

Choice of RPM range depends on how aggressively you are riding. For a beginning rider lower rpms and wider margins of safety are important.

 

That said, when riding aggressively I would keep the bike in the 5500-8000 rpm range because, as has been noted, both engine braking and power are maximized. However, that should not be your everyday street riding technique, particularly not yet. Keep in mind that the phrase "bounce off the rev limiter" has real meaning. You don't want to discover that meaning in a turn just yet. Try a straight portion of a freeway on ramp with a clear path in 1st or 2nd gear and see what it feels like.

 

I would agree with most of what has been said here so far. My suggestion is to enter turns slower than you think you need to for now, and practice technique.

 

1. Set entry speed before the turn, for now well before and conservative (trust me we're still gonna have some fun here). You can bring the speed up with experience.

 

2. Looking all the way through the turn. For me vision is the most important factor. Also, of course, never out run your line of sight. For many, if not most, turns your speed is limited by line of sight and braking distance rather than technical ability to ride the curve.

 

3. Body position. You want your upper body (but for street riding not your butt) moving into the turn. Kiss the mirrors.

 

4. Choosing your line. I recommend a "Ride Smart" line for street riding. This means staying to the outside of the curve and using a late turn-in late turn-in technique, rather than apexing at the tightest part of the curve.

 

 

5. Using throttle control to fine tune your line and learn to maintain a stable chassis.

 

6. Applying power after the apex to stabilize the bike and lift it out of the turn (this is the fun part).

 

 

[Twisties]

I left out, with the body position, relaxed grip, relaxed elbows, "light on the bars."

[philbytx]

Just try to keep the motor in the "meat" of the powerband.....around 5 to 6k!

 

This will give you flexibility on both the up and down side of the rev range.

[Ozonewanderer]

I had been riding off and on for about 30 years, but I was never confident in the turns, even after reading books like "A Twist of the Wrist." Then someone took some time to explain riding technique to me, and I took a California Superbike School course. From what I learned I would say that all the advice offered here is excellent.

 

For me the big eye opener was to learn to accelerate out of the turn. Apparently the physics of a motorcycle is such that the bike is happiest when power is applied to the rear wheel while in the turn. The bike is more stable. The only way to be able to power out of the turn is to make sure that you are not going too fast into the turn. Since you never apply brakes while in a turn you need to slow down prior to the turn while still upright. So the steps are: Slow, Lean, and Roll (the throttle). You go faster by going slower!

 

With practice you will find the right RPM's going into a turn that leaves you with the power bandwidth to power out of the turn.

 

I'm no racer, but I'm a lot happier and I look forward to the twisties now. I'm also jealous about the bike you have! I hope to test ride one soon.

 

 

[Clive Liddell]

Tony,

 

I feel that some of the advice I see above recommends RPM's more fitting to a small 4 cylinder Japanese bike.

 

Our Oilheads make plenty of torque from 3500 upwards and in twisties (is there any other type of road to ride?) I find an average RPM of around 4000-4200 keeps everything nice and smooth and allows me to use my tyre treads all the way to the edges - but in a "quiet" way...

 

[David R]

I find a mid rpm + gear gives me the most control of the bike. If I want to slow down for the curve, the engine does it. I am learning to use the balls of my feet and the brake pedal is far away.

 

I love the rev limiter. I rarely hit it but I know I can't hurt the bike by riding it like I stole it. On my airhead the rev limiter is a bent intake valve. (done it)

 

Last weekend we were in the Adirondacks. If it was 60 to 70 mph with sweepers I kept it in 4th. The better roads (twisty) I used 3rd. This was two up bags full. Got the best mileage ever. 47 mpg. Girlfriend loves it and leans into the corners with me.

 

I am thinking around 4500 rpm consistently. Its right in the torque curve, so it responds.

 

Both bikes are a different animal if I keep the Rs over 5,000.

 

I love the power of a twin.