Evasive maneuver

[motorman587]

In October I went to the BMW performance center and took the on road course. One of the exercises was the evasive maneuver. During the exercise we were instructed to pull in the clutch, coast and then swerve. I have been trained in the past to keep the throttle constant, with no clutch input. So my question to the instructors here on the board, wouldn't pulling in the clutch act as applying the brakes?? i.e. upset the suspension??

[upflying]

CHP motor school teaches pulling in the clutch lever. They also teach you to keep the clutch covered at all times. One of the reasons has to do with braking. You want the rear wheel freewheeling when you apply threshold braking during evasive maneuvers. Leaving the clutch engaged, could stall the engine and create erratic driveline snatches to the rear wheel.

The other reason has to do with an admittedly rare event of engine failure. Engine failure could lock the rear wheel, covering the clutch gives you a quick recovery from possible loss of control.

[rad]

I teach MSF with a retired 25 year CHP motor vet, and we had this exact discussion last Saturday. He clutches in every swerve, I do not. I think it demonstrates an excellent point; there is more than one way to get the job done, and done right.

[tallman]

OK, so clutch in, evade, brake as needed.

Then?

Shift?

After/simultaneously?

[motoguy128]

I think I instinctively pull the clutch in when I emergency brake if I meanuever or not.

 

I think the habit is from driving manual shift cars, where you will stall the engine when the wheels lock-up on snow or gravel and from my early days learning to ride the motorcycle where I was afrid I'd stall the engine if I braked hard at low speeds.

 

I think if I'm going to evade only, I'll just swearve using neutral throttle... but if my escape route includes braking after I swearve, then I might pull in the brake.

 

 

Honestly, I do whatever I've tranined myself to do over the years. I couldn't tell you for sure what I'd do in each situation. I never drilled myself that speficically. For me, when I'm riding a mtorocycle, I'm drawing on experience from riding and racing bicycles as well as driving cars and riding the motorcycle at trackdays. I think you build certain insticts on how to control a 2 wheel machine. I've had as many close calls on bicycles as I've had on motorcycles over the years and i've had 1 crash on each... walking away from one and a breaking a collar bone on the other. Bother times I was riding over my head and was a beginner in that activity.

[John, Northeast Florida]

Just an observation, but the numbers of 'true' swerves I have actually performed, where there was a true threat to life and limb, I have no idea what I actually did relative to this discussion. It happened so fast, that whatever muscle memory and/or skills (or lack of)managed to pull me through without mishap. My guess is that I did NOT pull in the clutch and only applied enough brake (if any) to effect the swerve.

[T__]

John, I have always de-clutched (at least partially) during a high G swerve.. I have always done it that way as it is very difficult to maintain a constant throttle position if a lot of bar input is used on a heavy bike..

For a normal low G swerve to avoid a sudden pot hole or debris in the road I never mess with the clutch & just put some bar into it..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Rotor]

One of the reasons has to do with braking. You want the rear wheel freewheeling when you apply threshold braking during evasive maneuvers.

 

Hmmm, Threshold braking and swerving? Asking a too much from that little contact patch I think. I know you are, or were, a seasoned motor officer; and, I respect your opinion and obvious training. Apparently, it has served you well. I'm just not understanding the logic. Unless I'm not understanding what is being said correctly (always a possibility). When we train for emergency evasive maneuvers, we train them to be a suprise. No clutch pulling, just agressive counter-steering to avoid the obstacle.

 

If you're talking about straight-line braking, then I would agree pulling in the clutch is appropriate because we are downshifting nearly equal to the reduction of speed.

 

I don't teach evasive swerving and braking. One or the other, but not both at the same time. Also, we stay under power (steady speed) during our evasive training.

[upflying]

One of the reasons has to do with braking. You want the rear wheel freewheeling when you apply threshold braking during evasive maneuvers.

 

Hmmm, Threshold braking and swerving? Asking a too much from that little contact patch I think. I know you are, or were, a seasoned motor officer; and, I respect your opinion and obvious training. Apparently, it has served you well. I'm just not understanding the logic. Unless I'm not understanding what is being said correctly (always a possibility). When we train for emergency evasive maneuvers, we train them to be a suprise. No clutch pulling, just agressive counter-steering to avoid the obstacle.

 

If you're talking about straight-line braking, then I would agree pulling in the clutch is appropriate because we are downshifting nearly equal to the reduction of speed.

 

I don't teach evasive swerving and braking. One or the other, but not both at the same time. Also, we stay under power (steady speed) during our evasive training.

Of course I agree, you should not brake hard while swerving but does that eliminate any attempt at braking during an evasive maneuver? A light application of brake while in a lean is appropriate if that's what it takes to avoid a collision.

At some point steering input, throttle control and braking used separately and/or combination of each other will be part of any collision avoidance maneuver.

Some evasive collision maneuvers may also require an abrupt full throttle application.

Each emergency is unique and there is no right answer for all circumstances.

[Ken H.]

If there’s one rule in conversations like this it is that there is no rule. It all depends on the situation/conditions. I can think of more than on evasive maneuver I’ve made where more acceleration was appropriate and in that moment pulling the clutch ‘because you’re always suppose to’ would have decidedly been the wrong thing to do. Contra, there have been times that it was exactly the right thing to do. Same with brakes or no brakes, rear only or both, etc, etc.

 

I think we are doing a disservice to ourselves when we attempt to put forth absolutes. As Bob said, “Each emergency is unique and there is no right answer for all circumstances.”

 

[motoguy128]

Braking while initiating a change in direction (leaning into a turn) would be considered trail braking. You can continue to brake up to the point where the lateral loading on the tire is 100% and therefore the load from braking must be 0%. its' also a good way to continue to slow the bike if you've come in "too hot" in a corner. Better than running straight off.

 

So trail braking on the street is a safety margin. If you don't plan on needing it while carving up a twisty road, it's there if you misjudge a corner or find something in your line. You can scrub off a little speed and adjust the line for a late apex or set-up the line as a double apex... again, to avoid a road hazard.

[motorman587]

Thanks for all the reply. And after talking with the senior big boss, we all agreed on that, in a swerve type maneuver, and again situation will dictate, but in this exercise we want you to leave the throttle constant and concentrate on the counter steer. I remember doing this exercise and it scared the crap out of me and after thinking about, it was becasue the suspension became unstable (slowing) and the bike started to wobble like a big cow. (K1200LT)

 

[David13]

I realize I have done both. I think the first time without the clutch in was when I was not on the clutch and didn't have time to get to it.

And my swerve went fine without it. Surprised me. So depending on the circumstances, either may be the right way to do it.

Amazing how high you can jump when you need to.

dc

[MotorinLA]

I think this sounds kind of like the 40 mph cone weave exercise we used to have to do in Motor School. It was a straight line serpentine pattern (oxy-moron?) where you had to enter at 40 mph and maintain speed throughout the weaving maneuver. Obviously we started at much lower speeds, but by the end we were able to complete the continuous swerves from side to side at 40 mph. I guess it teaches you to swerve, maintain throttle, transition quickly to the opposite direction and keep the bike in equilibrium all at the same time.

 

As pointed out by several participants already, there is a varied number of responses that could be appropriate. The more difficult part is picking the right one during the split-second decision making processing, while facing some hazard in the roadway.

 

I have found that mental preparation/scenario evaluation is a good tool to improve this decision making skill.

[bvaughan]

. . . the bike started to wobble like a big cow. (K1200LT)

 

how many miles on your shocks? just curious.

[ragtoplvr]

Another vote for clutch in. If I am in an evasive maneuver situation with braking involved, I have enough to do without worrying about gear selection etc. After I get stopped or out of danger, I will worry about gear selection then. Once I was stopped, and was still in 6th. At least I was upright and safe. I suppose there are situations where not being able to get moving again could be an issue. What are the odds of that! I do not find myself in an severe evasive maneuver even once a year! For me, possibly not completing the evasive action from having too many things to do at once would be the larger risk.

 

Best of all is situational awareness to avoid emergency swerves, panic stops, in the first place.

 

Rod

 

Rod

[MotorinLA]

Another vote for clutch in. If I am in an evasive maneuver situation with braking involved, I have enough to do without worrying about gear selection etc. After I get stopped or out of danger, I will worry about gear selection then. Once I was stopped, and was still in 6th. At least I was upright and safe. I suppose there are situations where not being able to get moving again could be an issue. What are the odds of that! I do not find myself in an severe evasive maneuver even once a year! For me, possibly not completing the evasive action from having too many things to do at once would be the larger risk.

 

Best of all is situational awareness to avoid emergency swerves, panic stops, in the first place.

 

Rod

 

I agree with avoiding potentially dangerous situations whenever possible, however, I worry a little about your apparent perception that collision avoidance only happens infrequently and can be avoided by anticipating things around you. It is this kind of thinking that could get you into serious trouble some day. If you don’t have close calls on a regular basis, you run the risk of becoming complacent. Remember that no matter how good of a rider you are and no matter how much you try to ride cautiously, there will be times that things happen that are beyond your control.

 

The reason I think many riders discuss these things repeatedly on this board, is because these situations are so infrequent and therefore it is difficult to become proficient in dealing with them. It is hard to be mentally/physically ready, because you get little chance to actually practice the real deal. As a result, riders discuss other ways of practicing and preparing, so that when the crap hits the fan, they will be more prepared and hopefully will be able to take some appropriate action that will reduce the danger to themselves.

 

Look at the previous post on this board called “Breaking Practice” and read my reply. It deals with multi-tasking and accomplishing many different tasks simultaneously during emergency maneuvers. Being stopped in 6th gear after emergency braking is not a good place to be and could prevent you from being able to remove yourself from harms way. Remember that some collisions involve more than one vehicle and more than one impact.

 

It is not at all my intention to lecture you about motorcycle riding and I apologize if that is how this post sounded. I do, however, hope to make you think about your riding and how you can improve it and make yourself safer. I think that this is the gist behind many of the discussion on this board – a sharing of ideas and experiences, to help others to hopefully avoid mistakes that we have made in the past.

 

[Quinn]

How come no one has mentioned hollaring "shiiiiiiiii.." while performing evasive maneuvers? If you get to the "t", you've avoided the accident.

 

---

 

 

[MotorinLA]

How come no one has mentioned hollaring "shiiiiiiiii.." while performing evasive maneuvers? If you get to the "t", you've avoided the accident.

 

---

 

 

Adding one more task to accomplish during an event that requires multi-tasking during extreme pressure is not advisable...

[motorman587]

. . . the bike started to wobble like a big cow. (K1200LT)

 

how many miles on your shocks? just curious.

 

Just got them...........

[nrp]

and the bike started to wobble like a big cow. (K1200LT)

Be suspicious of the torsional rigidity of the front fork system that transfers the handlebar torque input to the front wheel axis. Have someone hold the front wheel while you twist the handlebars to see if there is some lost motion somewhere.

 

Low front tire pressure or even a worn tire profile could also be a contributor.

 

 

[ragtoplvr]

I agree with avoiding potentially dangerous situations whenever possible, however, I worry a little about your apparent perception that collision avoidance only happens infrequently and can be avoided by anticipating things around you. It is this kind of thinking that could get you into serious trouble some day. If you don’t have close calls on a regular basis, you run the risk of becoming complacent. Remember that no matter how good of a rider you are and no matter how much you try to ride cautiously, there will be times that things happen that are beyond your control.

 

The reason I think many riders discuss these things repeatedly on this board, is because these situations are so infrequent and therefore it is difficult to become proficient in dealing with them. It is hard to be mentally/physically ready, because you get little chance to actually practice the real deal. As a result, riders discuss other ways of practicing and preparing, so that when the crap hits the fan, they will be more prepared and hopefully will be able to take some appropriate action that will reduce the danger to themselves.

 

Look at the previous post on this board called “Breaking Practice” and read my reply. It deals with multi-tasking and accomplishing many different tasks simultaneously during emergency maneuvers. Being stopped in 6th gear after emergency braking is not a good place to be and could prevent you from being able to remove yourself from harms way. Remember that some collisions involve more than one vehicle and more than one impact.

 

It is not at all my intention to lecture you about motorcycle riding and I apologize if that is how this post sounded. I do, however, hope to make you think about your riding and how you can improve it and make yourself safer. I think that this is the gist behind many of the discussion on this board – a sharing of ideas and experiences, to help others to hopefully avoid mistakes that we have made in the past.

 

I agree with you 110%. I always pretend someone is out to get me, I think of this as situational awareness. If vehicle does "action" then escape route is "..." type stuff. I also think if I speed up, slow down, change lane position, use car as blocker, weave, take alternate route. I have not taken a turn before, because something seemed sketchy about the car behind me. It can be much better to take the long way, it just means more riding.

 

I usually only have this fail, where I end up in a scary potentially dangerous situation once or twice a year. When I was younger I found myself in this situation much more often. Eventually I crashed from it. My attitude now is every time I find myself in one of these situations, I always think how may I avoid it in the future. When ever I approach any intersection, I always know where the point of no return starts and ends. By point of no return, I mean like this. You have right of way, car comes to intersection on your right, and stops. Oncoming traffic. They wait. There is a zone where if they pull out, you will crash. Even then you may have crash options, like is ditch better, or is there a barbed wire fence, cable barrier or is hit the car better. Can you hit at the hood or trunk. or no choice. I am so glad I have never had to make that choice, so far. You may think they see you, but they are talking to someone, joke on radio, spilled their coffee and then without looking they pull out. If you can adjust your speed etc maybe you can shrink this zone. That is good, and there have been a few times where shrinking the zone had changed a dangerous situation into a interesting situation. The accident chain thing, break any link and avoid the accident. My mentally rehearsing these, I do find when one does occur, I respond better. It pisses me off that I have to do this, and it interferes with the enjoyment of the ride to some extent. Is better to do this than miss a ride while healing up, or worse.

 

I am not perfect, and I am sure I would never pass a motor officer course, but I hope and try to be safer every year. I value your warning about becoming complacent, us commuters fight that because of route familiarity. While I try to always ride in a flexible gear. I will still pull in the clutch in the heat of a avoidance maneuver that involves braking. To me, the engine fighting the brake can cause me to go down, is more likely that 2 other drivers messing up and the second one getting me.

 

Rod

[MotorinLA]

I usually only have this fail, where I end up in a scary potentially dangerous situation once or twice a year. When I was younger I found myself in this situation much more often. Eventually I crashed from it. My attitude now is every time I find myself in one of these situations, I always think how may I avoid it in the future. When ever I approach any intersection, I always know where the point of no return starts and ends. By point of no return, I mean like this. You have right of way, car comes to intersection on your right, and stops. Oncoming traffic. They wait. There is a zone where if they pull out, you will crash. Even then you may have crash options, like is ditch better, or is there a barbed wire fence, cable barrier or is hit the car better. Can you hit at the hood or trunk. or no choice. I am so glad I have never had to make that choice, so far. You may think they see you, but they are talking to someone, joke on radio, spilled their coffee and then without looking they pull out. If you can adjust your speed etc maybe you can shrink this zone. That is good, and there have been a few times where shrinking the zone had changed a dangerous situation into a interesting situation. The accident chain thing, break any link and avoid the accident. My mentally rehearsing these, I do find when one does occur, I respond better. It pisses me off that I have to do this, and it interferes with the enjoyment of the ride to some extent. Is better to do this than miss a ride while healing up, or worse.

Rod

Excellent information Rod. It is the kind of continual situational analysis that you describe here, that I have used to save my bacon (pun intended) many times. It does take some of the enjoyment out of riding when you constantly have to be one step ahead of yourself mentally, but like you stated, it is better than the alternative.

 

[Indy Dave]

It pisses me off that I have to do this, and it interferes with the enjoyment of the ride to some extent. Is better to do this than miss a ride while healing up, or worse.

Rod

Excellent information Rod. It is the kind of continual situational analysis that you describe here, that I have used to save my bacon (pun intended) many times. It does take some of the enjoyment out of riding when you constantly have to be one step ahead of yourself mentally, but like you stated, it is better than the alternative.

 

Agreed. I find it to also be mentally exhausting. I find I don't have the needed attention span at times and need to take more breaks and / or shorter rides while I 'condition' my feeble mind to be attentive for longer periods.

[motorman587]

and the bike started to wobble like a big cow. (K1200LT)

Be suspicious of the torsional rigidity of the front fork system that transfers the handlebar torque input to the front wheel axis. Have someone hold the front wheel while you twist the handlebars to see if there is some lost motion somewhere.

 

Low front tire pressure or even a worn tire profile could also be a contributor.

 

 

All the big cows have a degree of wobble, that is why the put in that steering damper in the LT and on the Goldwing they have a front end brace. Just the beast of a large motorcycle. My comment was made for this thread that when I did this exericse I could feel the wobble worst, then when I have done an evasive manevuer with the clutch out and the throttle constant. I check my air about once a week each time I get on the motorcycle, probably more than others.

[Deek]

"...Of course I agree, you should not brake hard while swerving but does that eliminate any attempt at braking during an evasive maneuver? A light application of brake while in a lean is appropriate if that's what it takes to avoid a collision....."

 

And I've always understood that one should use just the REAR brake in that situation if possible? Thoughts on that?

[motorman587]

"...Of course I agree, you should not brake hard while swerving but does that eliminate any attempt at braking during an evasive maneuver? A light application of brake while in a lean is appropriate if that's what it takes to avoid a collision....."

 

And I've always understood that one should use just the REAR brake in that situation if possible? Thoughts on that?

 

I always have taught and teach "never" to use any type of brakes or off the throttle, in a swerve. You can and will up set the suspension and use up the small tire patch, which you are using, in the swerve.

 

I have never heard of "just" using the rear brake in swerve. New to me. The only time a rear brake is used is slow speed parking lot maneuvers.

 

In a swerve you want to brake before or after never during.