Personal cooling...

[bladerunner]

I have seen the:

>Ice pack vests

>Evaporative cooling garments

>Ice-water circulation system with tubes.

 

None are real great solutions.

The evaporative garments mean that you cannot place anything over them, such as armor. Bad idea.

The Ice pack method is bulky, inconvenient (must have access to a freezer) and doesn't last long. Also, you can't effectively regulate the temperature.

The circulation method is way bulky; you have to carry around a 6 pack cooler.

 

So.

How about Thermal Electric Cooling (TEC / Peltier) plates on a container mounted to a low profile back pack?

Coolant would circulate thru tubes sewn into undergarments. The tubes would have to be small enough diameter to avoid bulk yet circulate enough volume of liquid to cool the rider.

At first, I thought it would be good to place the TEC plates on the rider's pressure points. This would provide direct cooling to the bodies hot spots. But the problem would be exhausting the heat from the hot side of the TEC plate.

Best to concetrate on cooling the liquid in a place where all of the exhaust could be directed away from the rider.

The back is ideal since the rider heat is directed behind and airflow provides air cooling to the heat sinks.

This setup is fairly straight forward.

The tubes and fittings I can get from a plastic supply company. Medical grade fittings and tubes.

The TEC plates are available online and are not that expensive.

So the issue for me is how do I power the plates and pump?

2 sources: the 12 VDC outlets on the bike, or a rechargeable battery system. Batteries might be too hefty to provide cooling for any length of time, but you would have the freedom to step away from the bike and retain personal climate.

How do you figure out to turn 12 VDC from the bike's battery into the proper VDC and amps to power the plates and a pump?

I fully expect the first prototype to cost me $300 ish in parts.

If I didn't think that the military had something like this going on, I would patent the concept. But I doubt I am the first.

Anyone out there who is into electronics I would greatly appreciate your insight and/or help.

[Wooster]

bladerunner,

 

I've often wished for helmet AC, being somewhat of a hot head (in all meanings of the term). Body cooling would be similarly desirable. Sooo, I'm interested, yet predict many developmental iterations prior to a convenient, unobtrusive system.

 

Goodluck, Too Warm Wooster

[bladerunner]

Here is my idea on head/helmet cooling:

1.) Yes, a beer and a comfy chair helps for sure but no, I mean:

2.) Run flat copper strips through the liner or even a mesh copper skull cap. Attatch a TEC plate to the bottom where it would extend below the back of the neck roll and run over directly to the TEC plate.

In theory, this should cool by convection. Of course, the temperature would not be transfered uniformly and the area farthest away from the TEC plate would be the warmest. That would be the forehead.

If it is possible to run tubes through the EVA foam without compromising the integrity of the helmet, then you could simply connect it to the main system with a quick-connect valve.

[Wooster]

bladerunner,

 

I appreciate your thinking. For past thirty-three years (moved from MA to NM), I've yerned for cool headed technology. I even recall (though wouldn't bet a beemer on it) seeing an ad in Rider about twenty years back for helmet AC; didn't act on it as graduate assitant had little disposable income.

Whenever I've listed my three "big ideas" (helmet AC, designer shirts with diagonal stripe/seat belt substitute and pepsi/coke wraps for beer cans) others have claimed helmet AC would give icecream headache. To that I say, helmet AC needs thermostat/rehoestat. Some future date, riders will wonder how people rode w/o cool tech.

As for diagonal striped shirts and beer wraps, well, I'll let 'em go in favor of frostie riding.

 

Best of luck, Hot Headed Wooster

 

If I had my life to live over, I'd live over a bar: it'd be more convenient that way.

[ClearwaterBMW]

i think that if some kind of ACTIVE cooling device for motorcyclists could be developed with a bmw-plug on the end... it'd sell enough to make all the R&D worthwhile

 

greg

[bladerunner]

All I need is someone to help me figure out the electricity discombobulator thingamatron and it's a done deal.

I've got everything solved except what/how much to power the pump and TEC plates.

Well, relatively speaking because you have to factor in size of the rider, ambient heat, size and number of TEC plates as well as flow rates.

The "thermostat" can simply be a flow rate adjustment or lowering the voltage on the plates.

I even have ideas to make the unit way cool looking so that even pedestrians will want one.

Like how that new BMW SportIntegral helmet looks like the midieval close helmet and I would wear that even sitting in my cubicle at work.

[Deaner]

I don't know, what about safety? How would the contraption handle a spill? Since you are wrapped in "coolant" how would a compound fracture work in a pool of the stuff.

[bladerunner]

Excellent point.

That is why I am designing with water cooling in mind.

Water is obviously not the best coolant but in case of road-meets-face, it's the safest.

Ethylene glycol and that family would be OK if the system could withstand any impact.

If the tubes are fiber or mesh impregnated then the weak point would be the fittings or valves.

There is also a risk that falling on a pump mounted to your back might actually cause spinal trauma just as if you landed on a rock. But that situation is not much different than all of us who wear back packs while riding.

In my design, there are potentially only two fittings. Otherwise the loop is one closed unit that is routed in a pattern to effectively cover the torso.

It may be possible to include a self-sealing valve should the tube become disonnected from impact.

Alternatively, there may be non-toxic cooling solutions.

[ClearwaterBMW]

well,

it HAS to be safe, of course...

i think that the "active ingredients" could be self-contained in a way that would render them HARMLESS in a get-off

hey..... let's call the engineers at NASA...

they won't be doing anything for a while!

 

greg

[W. Mazelin]

it'd sell enough to make all the R&D worthwhile

I like your optimism Greg, but I think it might be little misplaced. Have you ever listened to some riders bitch & complain about the price of motorcycling equipment? Some even go so far as to ask for discounts on oil drain-plug crush washers (I've heard it myself!). The low percentage of riders who ride a lot, I'd say more than 15,000 miles per year is probably not a large enough group to recover the R&D cost, let alone make it a profitable venture. Look around at how many riders are not ATGATT vs. those who are ATGATT and I think you will see my point. If a system could be devised that was no more intrusive that a heated vest, then it would have a much higher chance of success, anything more than that, and I think it will be a waste of time.

[ClearwaterBMW]

i guess i did have my head in the clouds again

i'll come back down to earth.... still would have been nice, though

 

greg

[MChick]

I don't see why all the hi-Tek boogedy here. I use a Marsee evap vest under my Perfed MotoGP leathers, and stay cool in 105 heat in Ukiah. I just have to soak it about every 3 hours, so once in a while at a pit stop, I soak the thing back up.

I wear BMW Summer pants with full padding and my SIDI Vertebra boots, and stay cool and comfy.

[Mike O]

...The evaporative garments mean that you cannot place anything over them, such as armor. Bad idea.

 

Wrong. I have an evaporative vest and wear it underneath the BMW Airflow2 jacket. 95deg+ seems to work just fine. It has the best summer armor that I am aware of. I don't consider this a 'bad idea'.

 

Care to explain how your assertion was derived?

 

Regards,

 

Mike O

[Tech Veep]

I use a wet long sleeve T-shirt under my Darien with the jacket vents open. That and a wet microfiber bandana around my neck kept me comfy at 100 degrees on a trip this summer.

[bladerunner]

So I am a big whiney-butt when it comes to hot/cold extremes.

I live in Sacramento, CA and summer usually = 105 degrees.

Some people tolerate extremes more than others.

Eveaporative cooling works best when there is sufficient ventalation. Anything you place over the garment reduces it's effectiveness and retains some degree of heat.

So I don't deny that evaporative cooling works. I am saying that is not as efficient.

My goal is not to get an hour's worth of cooling, but for the rider to have unlimited cooling.

As with all things in life, if it's working for you, then I a m not doubting it one bit.

[Wooster]

bladerunner,

 

Stick with it as there are riders interested; me for one. W/o getting grandiose, all tech we take for granted had to start somewhere. Only after first edition will second generation arrive, oh so cool and convenient.

Interest in cool tech is greatest where temps are hottest, say Phoenix in July. OTOH, Minnesota (great place just not oppressively hot) riders may not appreciate the need.

Lastly, evaporative coolers (colorfully called "swamp coolers") are effective only in absence of humidity: St Louis in the summer (too humid for me but a great city) is worst place for swamp cooling of any stripe.

 

Wooster who lived 7 years in Las Cruces NM: red lites in summer were H E double hockey sticks !

[Husker Red]

Yep, I gotta agree about humidity being a factor in evaporative cooling. I recently bought a cooling vest. It works okay, but I think that it doesn't cool as much as I would like because the combination of high humidity reducing evaporation and excellent wind protection on the RT leaves me feeling like I'm just stuck in wet clothes.

 

Mike

[rhaus]

I like the idea. I’m in Tucson and cooling would be great.

 

I have done one design that included a TE cooler. They can be had for not too much money and they come in a lot of different sizes. They are current hogs. I used a small one and to keep one chip cool while it was operating. Used nearly 25 Watts, which would be 2 Amps at 12V. Depending on the efficiency of the cooler it may take a lot of power to cool a person.

 

The small electric coolers that I’m aware of don’t even suggest batteries.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

...The evaporative garments mean that you cannot place anything over them, such as armor. Bad idea.

 

Wrong. I have an evaporative vest and wear it underneath the BMW Airflow2 jacket. "

 

Man I hate to be "Debbie Downer", but this is correct.

 

Cycling, is by nature, a bit uncomfortable. Evaporative cooling, even in very humid environs (ie Indiana, where 95% of my riding takes place),is quite effective enough even with full CE rated armour (that's what I use) and mesh

gear.

 

Evaporative gear, or if you really are heat sensitive: phase cooling vests (spendy but works)are plenty cool enough under all but 'Venusian'climates.

 

There is an effective answer (just not a 'car comfortable'

answer) if you look around and do a bit of research.

[ClearwaterBMW]

 

which "spendy" phase cooling vest do you think really works? most folks around here think they are OVERrated at the very best

 

greg

[Jerry_75_Guy]

Well, I may have 'stepped in it' a bit here, but I've read comments by several

riders, and talked to a couple at the rally in Lima who were wearing them.

 

All commented that when it came to hot AND humid conditions, the phase vests performed better than evaporative vests, None of them quantified just 'how much' better, but given the mode of cooling involved, it made sense to me that in high humidity, the more or less active cooling provided by phase vests would perform better than evaporitive based cooling.

 

Are they worth the significant increase in price?, depends on your check book, and how bad you need it.

 

Anyway, I wasn't trying to push a particular device, just trying to provide an alternative to someone who already felt evaporative devices weren't enough.

 

Personally, I think evap. vests, micro fiber clothes and mesh gear should be more than enough 90% of the time. And if they arn't, maybe it's time to leave the bike in the garage till it cools off.

 

Again, riding a bike isn't supposed to feel (be as comfortable as) riding in a car, at least as far as I'm concerned; if it were I'd loose a large part of the experience.

[Isettanut]

I have taken a different approach to cooling my upper torso. It is simple, inexpensive and works quite well. Without going into a lot of details it consists of a small bladder,surgical tubing,clear plastic tubing,a normaly off switch,fused power,a few wire ties,windshield washer fitings and last but not least a wind shield washer pump from a chevy pick up 1980 somthing. Sounds sort of silly, until you push the button. All the cooling water you need. One filling lasts all day. I instlled this on a 05 RT. It is a permanent install under the seat. The same setup will work for drinking if you wish. Leon

[dwb]

All commented that when it came to hot AND humid conditions, the phase vests performed better than evaporative vests, None of them quantified just 'how much' better, but given the mode of cooling involved, it made sense to me that in high humidity, the more or less active cooling provided by phase vests would perform better than evaporitive based cooling.

I’ve also heard comments about the ability of the PhaseChange clothing to cool in high temperatures. But the BMW apparel catalog only makes the following claim about temperature range:

 

“Optimum balance with an outside temperature of 40°F-75°F.”

[bladerunner]

>>Lsettanut:

Yes!

That's what I am after. Info like you have.

The winsdhield wiper pump would push water thru the tubes on 12 VDC. You have just solved half of my problem.

If I can find a cheap a$$ automobile cooler, I could gut it and run it off of 12 VDC, mounting the TEC plate from it onto a resevoire where the tube runs thru.

Having a NiMH or Lith Ion battery powered self-contained unit would be later down the road if at all. I will be happy just to plug into the bike for now.

Most of us have the 2 outlets already.

Forgive my ignorance of such matters, but the bike should bae able to generate plenty of electricity to handle that and then some.

[bladerunner]

OK.

So I learned some more stuff.

I could take the TEC plate and power supply out of a 42 QT Cooler and it draws .9 amps @ 12VDC.

One TEC plate might be enough, but you could run 3-5 plates or more.

An ATV, scooter or motorcycle battery would typically provide 12VDC for 12-17 amp hours @ .9amps.

So if you left the bike, you could have the battery mounted on a backpack. The larger the battery, the longer you could stay unplugged. Gut out a portable battery car starter and you would be able to charge the battery as you rode.

My goal is really just to cover my commute time of 45 minutes x 2.

So with a 17 amp hour battery I could power 7 plates for 2 hours.

I am really throwing this stuff out here, so please tell me if I am on the right track.

If I draw out this kind of power from the bikes outlet while riding, will the engine put out enough electricity to keep the main battery charged? When I pop into the store and come back out, would I find the bike unable to start?

How much power does the electric heating garments consume?

If the bikes are meant to handle two riders and electric heating garments then that might mean my idea is not too far off.

[bladerunner]

>>Lsettanut:

How much juice does your washer pump draw?

12 VDC and I am guessing the amps is in the milli range?

[bladerunner]

Updates:

> The BMW will typically produce 400 watts over operating load (600-700 Watts total). The excess is reduced when you add GPS, Radar, Stereo, Coomunications, Cell Phone, etc. Most are negligible except additional or higher powered lights and heated garments.

The single thermal plate I am starting with draws only 60 watts. The pump will draw just .5 amps. That leaves me with tons of room. I could safely add 5 more plates and have plenty left over for the typical radio, comm, GPS and excess. IF one plate was insufficient.

>There are several non-toxic human safe cooling liquids such as Paratherm. In the event that the reinforced braded hose ruptured or was severed, the liquid would not aggravate or infect the trauma area.

>There is a show coming up on ABC called American Inventor. I am going to San Francisco in November with the prototype. Winner gets a million bucks. I'll be satisfied with just having access to a professional fabrication team and a patent + licensing my patent. And if someone beat me to it, they probably got off their butts long before I started this thread. I am hoping that no one had a direct patent for application/use on motorcycles.

[RayG]

I've always wanted to build one of these also. Go Bladerunner, I hope you win.

 

Don't get stuck on the backpack idea. If you are going to connect to the source of cold water, then the cooling / heating unit could be mounted on board the motorcycle and the rider would connect the garment(s) to the source of cooling/heating liquid rather than a power source. A tank bag / backpack combination may be a good compromise to hold the hardware (& maybe a battery pack if you think that the unit should also work disconnected from the bike).

 

Notice I said heating/cooling. If you have an condsensor / evaporator type setup you can also heat with it. My water furnace at home works on that very principle. A heating/cooling combo would be worth more $ to most.

 

Good Luck with the prototype.

[ClearwaterBMW]

Updates:

> The BMW will typically produce 400 watts over operating load (600-700 Watts total). The excess is reduced when you add GPS, Radar, Stereo, Coomunications, Cell Phone, etc. Most are negligible except additional or higher powered lights and heated garments.

The single thermal plate I am starting with draws only 60 watts. The pump will draw just .5 amps. That leaves me with tons of room. I could safely add 5 more plates and have plenty left over for the typical radio, comm, GPS and excess. IF one plate was insufficient.

>There are several non-toxic human safe cooling liquids such as Paratherm. In the event that the reinforced braded hose ruptured or was severed, the liquid would not aggravate or infect the trauma area.

>There is a show coming up on ABC called American Inventor. I am going to San Francisco in November with the prototype. Winner gets a million bucks. I'll be satisfied with just having access to a professional fabrication team and a patent + licensing my patent. And if someone beat me to it, they probably got off their butts long before I started this thread. I am hoping that no one had a direct patent for application/use on motorcycles.

 

once again, i know i'm a huge dork from way back....

but this post of your's has me VERY excited.... seriously

 

greg

[bladerunner]

RAYG>

It will most likely be a cooling AND heating vest because all you have to do is reverse the current thru the TEC plate and the fluid will conduct heat.

And it did occur to me that the mechanism should not be mounted on the back but on a belt. That way you may continue to wear a regular backpack and I wouldn't have to construct a container that would prevent the rider from suffering and injury from the device should they land on their back.

The prototype pump/cooling unit is maybe a little larger than a toilette roll.

I am also trying to determine a way to make it mountable in different configurations.

It doesn't really need to be mounted to the bike and because the fluid is in a closed loop, you cannot diconnect the mechanism from the vest; they have to stay together to some degree.

Now, the battery - my prototype will be a Vector portable power supply, the kind you use to start cars - can be mounted to the bike or simply carried on in a tank bag or on the rear luggage rack. The combo tank bag / backpack is a good idea though!

It may be possible to have smaller form factor batteries like a drill motor battery.

[bladerunner]

<BLEEP>!!!

I read over the ABC American Invetor legal document and basically, they want you to give up all of your claim to your device.

So I wrote them and said that I will not be entering unless they change the document.

That;s OK. Just means I have to go thru the long drawn out proccess of applying for a patent by myself.

I am not eager to hire a patent attorney or pay $3000 to a solution provider to do it for me.

I have some connections that may lead to venture capitalists and sponsors. So we'll see.

In the mean time, my prototype is almost done. I have to finsish connecting the fluid line to the vest and attatching the powered device to a belt and it will be ready for testing.