"Only a Fool . . . "

[Horse]

" . . . Breaks the Two-Second Rule"

 

A reminder used over here in the UK to help prevent drivers tailgating.

 

The idea is to watch the vehicle in front pass a set point (road marking, sign etc) and then say t oyourself "Only . . . " - which should take about two seconds.

 

Do you have anything similar in the USA (or possibly even the same rhyme)?

 

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

We have the "two second rule" but most people in the urban areas consider it much more of a guideline that is disregarded daily.

[jaytee]

It is impossible to have a 2 second following distance on Southern California commutes. If you tried, you would just have cars from the next lane over fill in the gap, thereby causing you to have to go slower to create another gap, then beign filled by the cars next to you, etc, until you were at a complete stop!

 

I'm pretty happy with a one-second following distance on SoCal freeways.

 

JT

[Horse]

Reason I ask is that I've just been reading this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6VN8-40JFYT5-1-F&_cdi=6172&_user=8081132&_orig=search&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2000&_sk=999969997&view=c&wchp=dGLbVlz-zSkWb&md5=38e82e7f3cd38185664ca0b68aa9314d&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

 

It includes graphs of number of vehicles at varying separations from 0 - 4 secs, and there's a noticable 'dip' just below 2 seconds, as if drivers either do as you suggest, or actually maintain a 2s gap.

 

Linked article

[russell_bynum]

On a bike, following distances are largely irrelevant since there's no reason to be directly behind anyone in the first place.

[Dennis Andress]

[Horse]

On a bike, following distances are largely irrelevant since there's no reason to be directly behind anyone in the first place.

 

That depends on the width of the lane. Over here we don't always have the luxury of being able to offset.

 

However, I'm more interested in whether there is generic - rather than bike-specific - advice given to drivers of all types, e.g.:

 

 

 

 

 

[Horse]

Hmmmm . . . embedding Youtube didn't work . . . any ideas techie-people?

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

Riding and applying the 2 second rule can be very different depending on the road and the amount of traffic. It is very applicable on two-lanes. It also works on freeways with light traffic (no such thing in Cali). It is not possible on a high traffic freeway, as Russell states. There it is most important to watch what the vehicle 3 or 4 cars ahead is doing. I avoid like the plague to ride behind a truck or even some bigger SUV, for lack of visibility. In this case I or change lanes or apply the 2 second rule and let some cars to get between me and the truck.

[Horse]

apply the 2 second rule and let some cars to get between me and the truck.

 

Ah - that's what I'm getting at: is 'The Two Second Rule' used during US driver ed.?

 

 

[upflying]

Following the two second rule is an open invitation for other traffic to cut in front of you. Fogeddaboutit.

[Horse]

Following the two second rule is an open invitation for other traffic to cut in front of you. Fogeddaboutit.

 

So you drop back and arrive where you're going just three or four seconds later? Not so much of a challenge

[Paul Mihalka]

Many of our friends, Russell Bynum, Dennis Andress, Upflying, state their point related to the California freeways. There the lanes are fairly wide, many times there is a shoulder next to the "fast" lane, and lane splitting is permitted. Under those conditions I would also tighten my "2 second" distance, except when I'm behind a truck. A lot of the bike riding there is in HOV lanes where trucks are not permitted, so visibility to farther ahead is possible. I don't say that it's good or bad, but the rest of the world is not California

[David]

Following the two second rule is an open invitation for other traffic to cut in front of you. Fogeddaboutit.

 

So you drop back and arrive where you're going just three or four seconds later? Not so much of a challenge

 

I don't think you really understand what they're saying. It's much more than a few seconds of difference--it's also people honking at you and flipping you off for going too d@mn slow.

 

The vast majority of our driving problems could be fixed if drivers universally applied that rule, which is exactly why the vast majority of our driving problems will not be fixed.

 

If our enforcement community could somehow concentrate on "unsafe following distance" as a point of emphasis, our roads would be wildly safer.

[tallman]

I concur.

Would shooting the tires of tailgaters be sufficient?

[JonathanE]

Following such a rule is "passive safety". You are somewhat safe from that one specific vehicle ahead of you, but your safety is entrusted to the good will and diligence of all of the drivers passing you. BTW, they are oblivious and bear you ill will.

 

Control your own destiny. Constantly manage your position in traffic such that you prevent dangerous vehicles from getting close to you or affecting your path through traffic. Sometimes this causes you to follow two seconds behind a vehicle ahead of you, but that is only a coincidence. Manage the entire process, not just the number of seconds that one vehicle precedes you down the road.

[russell_bynum]

Many of our friends, Russell Bynum, Dennis Andress, Upflying, state their point related to the California freeways. There the lanes are fairly wide, many times there is a shoulder next to the "fast" lane, and lane splitting is permitted. Under those conditions I would also tighten my "2 second" distance, except when I'm behind a truck.

 

I don't follow trucks....regardless of what state I'm riding in.

 

As for the lanes being wide/narrow...it is very rare for people to be comfortable driving so close together that a bike can't fit between them.

 

 

I don't say that it's good or bad, but the rest of the world is not California

 

And thank God for that.

[jaytee]

Following the two second rule is an open invitation for other traffic to cut in front of you. Fogeddaboutit.

 

So you drop back and arrive where you're going just three or four seconds later? Not so much of a challenge

 

Wrong... Look, when you are on a packed freeway moving at 70-80mph a 2 second following distance is a huge amount of open space. Traffic, like flowing water, fills in the gaps. You drop back, then people from the lane next to you fill in, then you drop back again, and the people behind the people in the lane next to you fill in front of you, blah, blah, blah...

 

Next thing you know you are going 30 mph below the flow of traffic and some HP is pulling you over for some local variant of "obstructing the flow" -- I've seen it happen.

 

Not to mention the sheer a$$holery of it. People on SoCal freeways have somewhere to be and they have to suffer the freeways and agressive driving for however long it takes them to get there. If you are constantly moving significantly below the flow of traffic trying to get your magical, unobtainable 2 second following distance on a crowded freeway it causes people to blow a gasket - sometimes literally. Can anyone say Road Rage???

 

Something to ponder.

 

JT

 

PS: Way back in 1984 when I failed driver's ed (got an "A" in the course work but thought I was special and could skip 2 classes a week, not knowing CA has mandatory minimum attendence to pass) they were teaching the "2-second" rule, although it was always in the context of city streets with cross traffic and pedestrians. I have no idea if it is still taught.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

I saw something somewhere that said that SoCal has very high average speeds vs traffic density. In other words...in a normal place, if there are 100 cars per mile, the average speed will be 35mph. In SoCal, the same 100 cars per mile will be going 55mph. I'm making up the specific numbers there, but that's something I noticed when I first came here. I remember....we were all bumper to bumper and going 70mph.

[leikam]

The 2 second rule is still taught in driver safety classes.

 

While tailgating is habitual here, it's often possible to keep at least a 2 second following distance in moderately heavy traffic. Drivers don't change lanes just because there's an empty spot. They do so because they think they can go faster in your lane than in their own. They're looking for personal advantage and not to simply plug holes. Other things being equal, it balances out: more people pile into the "fast" lane and slow it down until it becomes slower. If all lanes are going the same speed, I've found it easy to maintain a good sized gap with very few people filling it in.

[Tony_K]

something I noticed when I first came here. I remember....we were all bumper to bumper and going 70mph.

 

We are all just drafting Nascar has nothing on CA freeways.

Sometimes we even throw in the bump draft!

[Mister Tee]

I am presently in Southeast Asia again. All I can say is, the traffic here makes the LA freeways at rush hour look sparse. In fact, riding here is a contact sport. It is impossible to maintain ANY following distance, much less than a second or two.

 

Every time I come back from this place, I feel completely relaxed splitting lanes during heavy traffic on the RT, at night.

[jaytee]

You know, when I visit other metropolitan areas I usually come back to CA happy with our relatively well-marked freeways andtrained high-speed drivers. Once you learn CA's freeway driving culture I find it easy to get around quite quickly so long as you avoid the worst directions and times of the day.

 

Drivers here just drive.

 

JT

[Horse]

Ta for all your replies, particularly confirmation that the 2s rule is still taught

 

I do understand the problems, albeit viewed from a [substantial] 'distance', even if I've not experienced your specific local conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

You know, when I visit other metropolitan areas I usually come back to CA happy with our relatively well-marked freeways andtrained high-speed drivers. Once you learn CA's freeway driving culture I find it easy to get around quite quickly so long as you avoid the worst directions and times of the day.

 

Drivers here just drive.

 

JT

 

True. You can even tell the difference by the time of the day.

 

Here in NorCal we have two hours to the driving day:

Commute Hour & Amateur Hour

[russell_bynum]

 

True. You can even tell the difference by the time of the day.

 

Here in NorCal we have two hours to the driving day:

Commute Hour & Amateur Hour

 

Ain't that the truth.

 

That's the worst thing about holiday traffic...you get the amateurs who are out shopping mixed in with the professional commuters. Havoc ensues.

[Dennis Andress]

Following the two second rule is an open invitation for other traffic to cut in front of you. Fogeddaboutit.

 

 

A couple of years ago I had occasion to visit the local DMV office (). I saw a little scrolling sign there that said "Remember to obey the speed limit." That struck me a more than a little odd and perhaps a little bit dangerous. I stood there, puzzled by it, for a few seconds until I was able to associate it with my surroundings. Where else but the DMV would one see such a nonsensical thing???

[Bill_Walker]

Here in NorCal we have two hours to the driving day:

Commute Hour & Amateur Hour

 

Both of which last longer than an hour, just like rush hour and happy hour. Must be inflation.

[Horse]

A couple of years ago I had occasion to visit the local DMV office (). I saw a little scrolling sign there that said "Remember to obey the speed limit." That struck me a more than a little odd and perhaps a little bit dangerous. I stood there, puzzled by it, for a few seconds until I was able to associate it with my surroundings. Where else but the DMV would one see such a nonsensical thing???

 

Many years back, in my MSF days, I used to regularly visit USAF bases over here.

 

I'd be issued with a temporary pass, which included the text: "Vehicle safety equipment must be utilized while on this establishment" or similar.

 

Now, the only safety equipment I used was my brain, but presumably if I'd been driving a car with ABS TCS ESC airbags and seatbelt pretensioners I should have driven in such a way to utilize them all?

 

 

 

[Deek]

Two second rule: ...."Do you have anything similar in the USA (or possibly even the same rhyme)?..

 

Yes, but with our American accents it's pronounced "two NANO second" rule. I avoid expressways around major cities for just that reason - I don't want a 5,000 car 36 inches from my rear wheel at 70 mph. Common sense died a horrible death with most drivers years ago.

[Deek]

"..I concur.

Would shooting the tires of tailgaters be sufficient?.."

 

Why stop there! Seriously, I have had occasion where I thought some sort of electrical zapper would be great to disable the car behind me.

 

When I am forced to ride in heavy traffic with tailgaters, I usually go over to the far left lane and "let 'er rip". That means doing about 75 mph in a 55 mph zone, but anything less, no matter in which lane you ride, is asking for trouble. My solution, while illegal and certainly out of character for me, is the least onerous solution to that situation IMO. Usually I try to NOT ride in those situations (heavy traffic, beltways around major cities) but take an alternate route where sane driving practices are often seen.

[David13]

I have had leo's tell me they do cite for following too close. I have seen it a very few times. It should be more common, to cite.

When you follow too close, you have to brake and brake hard, thus slowing everyone down. And causing the need for acceleration to regain the speed.

It's a simple law of physics. A body at rest tends to stay at rest, and a body in motion tends to stay in motion. Thus, the idea of racing from stop light to stop light, then stomping on the brakes two feet behind the car in front is slower moving, rather than faster.

Thus, if you observe Southern California traffic, you will see what they do actually causes them to go slower, rather than faster.

Racing up to fill a gap and then stomping on the brakes 2 feet behind the car in front on the freeway does not get anyone anywhere faster.

Showing no courtesy for other drivers on the road does not get anyone anywhere faster.

dc

[AdventurePoser]

I am continually riding the So Cal freeways and my riding position is fluid; I continually look for pockets of open space to ride in, and if there are no pockets I opt for the number one (fast) lane. At least I only have to defend myself from three directions...

 

Have fun out there,

 

Steve in So Cal

[Albert]

Once you learn CA's freeway driving culture I find it easy to get around quite quickly so long as you avoid the worst directions and times of the day. JT

 

So what do you do, you take the bus the other 22 hours of the day??

[jaytee]

So what do you do, you take the bus the other 22 hours of the day??

 

Obviously you don't drive SoCal freeways regularly. I commute on the 91 freeway, a hellish rush-hour commute that sends 12 lanes of freeway through the Santa Ana canyon. It is an east-west route which joins Orange County to the Inland Empire. It gets busy west-bound from 5am, gets slammed by 7am and stays bad until 9am.

 

But I am on a motorcycle. This means I get to use the carpool lane which is half as busy as the main lines and I get to use the 3+ lane on the toll road portion through the canyon for free (instead of paying 4-8$ for 10 miles).

 

As bad as morning west-bound traffic is, afternoon/evening east-bound is worse. Even so, between the hellish hours of 4pm-7pm I can still use the carpool and toll-lanes to make my 25 mile commute in 30-35 minutes.

 

But if I avoid those hours the 91 travels at 80+ miles per hour. Also, if my destination is in LA county, then I can take several north/south freeways (71, 15, 57, 605) all of which travel better than the 91. Lane splitting helps immensely.

 

My worst commute was when I was in college at UCLA: 75 miles one wway through several major freeway interchanges. At rush hour in a car by myself it took 2 1/2 to 3 hours to go 75 miles. But even at the same times on a motorcycle my typical commute time was 1hr 40 minutes with good days getting as low as 1hr 20 minutes.

 

My other option was.... A bus. Well, actually it was a ride-share van. That vehicle left at 4am from riverside and showed up in Westside (where UCLA is) at 10 'till 7. Ouch.

 

As to a real bus... I can't imagine one taking less time than even a car. They are slow, generally take the same crappy route even if there are accidents on the roadway and require MANY transfers to get anywhere of any significant distance in SoCal.

 

While southern California has a lot of people, we aren't all packed into some city center. Instead, we cover hundreds of square miles contributing to our traffic issues and making mass-transit somewhat irrelevant and very expensive. Fortunately our freeway system (while overburdened) is one of the most well-developed in the world and our drivers (while over-numerous) are very experienced in high-speed, congested freeweay driving.

 

IMHO.

 

JT

[Albert]

Sorry JT those little wiggling things ( ) are my signal that a toungue in cheek response has just been made (some might say stupid ). And no I'm no expert on So Cal freeways or lifestyle. You're probly right.

[ratfink]

I don't think these guys followed the two second rule, or the ride staggered rule:

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2009/09/crash_possibly_involving_multi.html

[jaytee]

Sorry JT those little wiggling things ( ) are my signal that a toungue in cheek response has just been made (some might say stupid ). And no I'm no expert on So Cal freeways or lifestyle. You're probly right.

 

ahhhh.... Well, I secretly knew you were just joshin' but I used it as an opportunity to hold forth on the means we motorcyclists in SoCal use to get around and to make note of the fact that things are no where near as bad in SoCal traffic than in say, Boston or PAris.

 

JT

[Francis]

3-Count on stop light changes here in the Big apple.

[Commanderkewl]

hey when it gets down to it, we are invisible to them!

two second rule- good to go by, but best if you fluidly move thru the traffic.

the gaps created by observing the rule are the ones others have violated and you quickly become a *traffic cone out there for cagers to brush by or impinge on*

That brings my adrenaline levels UP!

 

Ya may not agree with it, but I try my best to be observant at all times, and keeping myself out of the proverbial mess (means moving out of the way) that is created daily by texting-eating-drinking- talking on the phone drivers out there..

They hit you and didnt even see you.. We know or have known someone that has seen that situation before...

 

I also use my horn which is loud as heck and I dont even mind using it..

 

I use the 2 second rule in the suburbs- and rural highways.. sometimes even more-I am not in a hurry when someone isnt on my tail.. If possible I will enter the shoulder to let them pass- but that isnt what it usually is